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Author Topic: i1Pro2 "Raven" review  (Read 22773 times)
ThDo
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« Reply #40 on: April 14, 2012, 02:17:20 AM »
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Ha, you are right!

I haven't seen it first on the homepage.

To upgrade device only

i1Basic Pro ->i1Basic Pro 2
i1Photo Pro -> i1Basic Pro 2
i1Publish Pro -> i1Basic Pro 2

But what was the talking of a better price if you purchased the i1 Pro after april 2012?

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MHMG
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« Reply #41 on: April 14, 2012, 07:41:51 AM »
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I’ve already done this in the new module (you can make a chart with only two patches if you wish). That bit is easy. It is the various incarnations of data formats and what they allow us to do within i1Profiler that isn’t clear.

Andrew, quick question. Can i1profiler use something like TC918 chart data originally created in Measuretool's txt format?

thanks,
Mark
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digitaldog
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« Reply #42 on: April 14, 2012, 09:59:49 AM »
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Andrew, quick question. Can i1profiler use something like TC918 chart data originally created in Measuretool's txt format?

Yes. But for best results, you want to regenerate your patches in i1Profiler. The differences are not huge but noticeable. Prior to i1Profiler, I used Bill Atkinsion’s targets. I had i1Profiler regenerate the same number of patches (obviously it produces different ones), ran some tests and agreed with X-rite that indeed, new patch generation is better.
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Andrew Rodney
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MHMG
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« Reply #43 on: April 14, 2012, 02:25:56 PM »
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Yes. But for best results, you want to regenerate your patches in i1Profiler. The differences are not huge but noticeable. Prior to i1Profiler, I used Bill Atkinsion’s targets. I had i1Profiler regenerate the same number of patches (obviously it produces different ones), ran some tests and agreed with X-rite that indeed, new patch generation is better.

So that I'm sure I understand, you're talking about i1Profiler generating, for a given total patch count, a new custom target with a different set of RGB or CMYK values than traditional targets (like Bill Atkinson's targets) which means the patch values deviate from uniform interval spacing?
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FMueller
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« Reply #44 on: April 14, 2012, 03:25:53 PM »
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Ha, you are right!

I haven't seen it first on the homepage.

To upgrade device only

i1Basic Pro ->i1Basic Pro 2
i1Photo Pro -> i1Basic Pro 2
i1Publish Pro -> i1Basic Pro 2

But what was the talking of a better price if you purchased the i1 Pro after april 2012?



I don't see it at all. Could you point me to a webpage that talks about upgrading device only?

Thanks.
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digitaldog
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« Reply #45 on: April 14, 2012, 04:34:35 PM »
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So that I'm sure I understand, you're talking about i1Profiler generating, for a given total patch count, a new custom target with a different set of RGB or CMYK values than traditional targets (like Bill Atkinson's targets) which means the patch values deviate from uniform interval spacing?

For the same number of patches, it generates different values, the generation appears to be superior to the older patch generation engine.
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Andrew Rodney
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Scott Martin
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« Reply #46 on: April 14, 2012, 10:24:50 PM »
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So that I'm sure I understand, you're talking about i1Profiler generating, for a given total patch count, a new custom target with a different set of RGB or CMYK values than traditional targets (like Bill Atkinson's targets) which means the patch values deviate from uniform interval spacing?

i1Profiler is based on Monaco Profiler. Profiler's engine used what you're calling uniform interval spacing with targets like the RGB 343, 729 and 1728 patch targets. i1Profiler needs the same uniformity but takes it a step further by adding gray balance patches.

FWIW, Check out my "Onsight RGB v7 Inkjet Profiling Target" at http://www.on-sight.com/downloads/ It's a true 16 bit target with 16 bit reference data. I've been working with the i1Prism engineers for many, many years and this target came out of a discussion of optimal patch placement. It's kinda like an updated version of an Atkinson target. I really love the visual nature of the Atkinson target and find it quite useful in day to day usage, thus the creation of this target. You can get something pretty similar out of i1Profiler these days but it won't have the nice visual quality, not will it be in 16 bits (and the usefulness of 16 bits is questionable).


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ThDo
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« Reply #47 on: April 15, 2012, 01:20:32 AM »
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I don't see it at all. Could you point me to a webpage that talks about upgrading device only?

Thanks.

http://www.xrite.com/product_overview.aspx?id=1951

Just in the middle of the page.

But as I have written - the option "To upgrade device only" means you have to buy the i1 Basic Pro 2!
So the "hardware only" in reality means to buy a whole new retail package (which of course includes the hardware AND the software)


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Scott Martin
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« Reply #48 on: April 15, 2012, 08:09:03 AM »
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But as I have written - the option "To upgrade device only" means you have to buy the i1 Basic Pro 2!
So the "hardware only" in reality means to buy a whole new retail package (which of course includes the hardware AND the software)

I know this is confusing but I don't think there's anything devious going on here.

The software is available to anyone for free from the website. But you can't use it without a dongle, or an i1 that has the licensing internally (an internal dongle essentially). So the software doesn't work without the hardware.

If you have a pre-April 2011 i1 (let's say a higher level i1 like the Publish or Extreme) then you don't have i1Profiler software functionality. To get the new hardware and full software functionality, you need to purchase the Upgrade B option for $1699. If you've already purchased i1Profiler since it came out then you can get the new device (the i1BasicPro2 package) for $1199 ($500 less) (which has restricted software functionality) and transfer your existing software licensing to the new device and have full access to all the features in the software. So, you see, you're not really buying the full software functionally with that more affordable upgrade path. Plus you get all the new device accessories and goodies like the ColorChecker Proof and Minichecker.

I agree all of the options are confusing but, IMO, these are fair upgrade options for people. And of course, even ~10 year old Rev A i1Pros work pretty darn well in i1Profiler which is impressive.
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FMueller
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« Reply #49 on: April 15, 2012, 09:27:50 AM »
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http://www.xrite.com/product_overview.aspx?id=1951

Just in the middle of the page.

But as I have written - the option "To upgrade device only" means you have to buy the i1 Basic Pro 2!
So the "hardware only" in reality means to buy a whole new retail package (which of course includes the hardware AND the software)




Thank you for the pointer.

"You will not have to surrender the use of your current solution in order to upgrade. However, the upgrade process does verify that the original solution is legitimate and eligible for upgrade. In order to activate, upgrade process requires serial number from i1Pro device or software dongle from ProfileMaker or MonacoPROFILER solutions."

If I'm reading this correctly, this means that my eye one pro spectro purchased as as part of the i1 photo pro package post april 2011 will retain its full functionality to profile papers. While I would always prefer better pricing, this seem like a fair enough deal. I was concerned that as part of the upgrade process, my current eye one spectro would be "de-licensed" for paper profiling.
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Alan Goldhammer
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« Reply #50 on: April 15, 2012, 10:36:41 AM »
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I agree all of the options are confusing but, IMO, these are fair upgrade options for people. And of course, even ~10 year old Rev A i1Pros work pretty darn well in i1Profiler which is impressive.
The confusion about the hardware upgrade is actually pretty simple.  When I bought my i1 Pro last summer, I did not buy the printer profiling software package as I use ArgyllCMS for my own purpose and have made profiles for others using it as well.  Thus, I can only use my i1 Pro to do monitor calibration since that is the only software app that comes with the basic package.  I cannot get a special upgrade price UNLESS I go for the full profiling software which I don't need.  It's all irrelevant at this point because I would still have to wait for Graeme Gill to provide the support for the i1 Pro2 for Argyll which will take some time.  The nice thing about Argyll is that I can generate excellent printer profiles and am not bound by the X-Rite EULA.

Alan
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digitaldog
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« Reply #51 on: April 15, 2012, 11:12:24 AM »
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You can get something pretty similar out of i1Profiler these days but it won't have the nice visual quality, not will it be in 16 bits (and the usefulness of 16 bits is questionable).

Considering how few drivers will pass the full 16-bit data, sure. I still think it would be nice if i1Profiler (like Bill and your targets), were 16-bit for those that do. No harm done. Easy to sample down to 8-bits per color (or just leave it alone). Hopefully you can convince the X-rite gang of updating this in the next release. Should be small engineering.
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Andrew Rodney
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alain
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« Reply #52 on: April 15, 2012, 11:56:44 AM »
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Considering how few drivers will pass the full 16-bit data, sure. I still think it would be nice if i1Profiler (like Bill and your targets), were 16-bit for those that do. No harm done. Easy to sample down to 8-bits per color (or just leave it alone). Hopefully you can convince the X-rite gang of updating this in the next release. Should be small engineering.

Even if all drivers would allow full 16-bit paths, this seems unneeded.  When using a 8-bit target there are 256 * 256 * 256 different colour patches possible, most targets use only about 1/10.000 off the possible combinations.    Even with an extra optimization step it's doubtful that there will be a difference possible.  It would mean that it's not possible to do a -very- good interpolation between two colours that are only 1/256 in one off the channels different ( for example 200,200,200 and 201,200,200).

The only -practical- use would be that the printer (driver) is treating a 16-bit image  different that the same image as 8-bit.  But this seems problematic for that printer ;-)
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MHMG
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« Reply #53 on: April 15, 2012, 12:01:38 PM »
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i1Profiler is based on Monaco Profiler. Profiler's engine used what you're calling uniform interval spacing with targets like the RGB 343, 729 and 1728 patch targets. i1Profiler needs the same uniformity but takes it a step further by adding gray balance patches.

FWIW, Check out my "Onsight RGB v7 Inkjet Profiling Target" at http://www.on-sight.com/downloads/ It's a true 16 bit target with 16 bit reference data. I've been working with the i1Prism engineers for many, many years and this target came out of a discussion of optimal patch placement. It's kinda like an updated version of an Atkinson target. I really love the visual nature of the Atkinson target and find it quite useful in day to day usage, thus the creation of this target. You can get something pretty similar out of i1Profiler these days but it won't have the nice visual quality, not will it be in 16 bits (and the usefulness of 16 bits is questionable).

Thanks Scott, the gray ramp addition to the profiling process makes good sense and probably will help with profile quality in neutral/near neutral color/tone gradients. Like you, I thought Atkinson's target had nice signature pattern. I have never liked working with scrambled color patch targets because good visual ramps quickly allow the user to figure out when things aren't quite right in many instances without having to take the time to measure the target. Also, I've always felt that the original rationale for scrambling which was based on the notion of averaging out printer inconsistency and non-uniformity is kind of a circular argument since printers that show those problems often aren't worth profiling, IMHO.  Later, as the profiling device manufacturers moved away from position-based patch detection to optical edge/guideline detection, scrambled patches again became an necessary part of that technique, but I've personally seen too many instances where the optical patch recognition fails miserably.  I'm glad to see the new i1Pro2 is returning to some of that direct position detection via the grated ruler.

cheers,
Mark
http://www.aardenburg-imaging.com
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digitaldog
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« Reply #54 on: April 15, 2012, 12:11:33 PM »
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Thanks Scott, the gray ramp addition to the profiling process makes good sense and probably will help with profile quality in neutral/near neutral color/tone gradients.

Also consider the optimization process for grays alone:

http://www.i1upgrades.com/2011/08/how-to-use-the-tc-2502-gray-optimization-chart/

On my Epson printers, I do see an improvement (Roman 16 neutral test images) both in neutrality and smoothness of gradients.
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Andrew Rodney
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Nigel Johnson
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« Reply #55 on: April 15, 2012, 02:02:39 PM »
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Plus you get all the new device accessories and goodies like the ColorChecker Proof and Minichecker.

Scott

According to the X-Rite site and downloaded brochure, i1Basic Pro 2 (the 'hardware only' upgrade) does not include the ColorChecker Proof or ColorChecker Classic (mini) although they were included as part of the i1Publish software upgrade.

Regards
Nigel
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alain
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« Reply #56 on: April 15, 2012, 05:45:01 PM »
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Also consider the optimization process for grays alone:

http://www.i1upgrades.com/2011/08/how-to-use-the-tc-2502-gray-optimization-chart/

On my Epson printers, I do see an improvement (Roman 16 neutral test images) both in neutrality and smoothness of gradients.

Impressive, but 2502 gray patches and hand crafted spot colours.
Maybe 99% can be obtained with one A4/letter size patch page (834 patches).

BTW. Adding patches for the Color checker (24) and/or QPCard (35) colours would be something that's possible with the optimization process.
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digitaldog
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« Reply #57 on: April 15, 2012, 05:59:50 PM »
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Impressive, but 2502 gray patches and hand crafted spot colours.

Marc made a 900 odd patch I can forward if you want it. He didn’t post to the blog.
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Andrew Rodney
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Mark Paulson
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« Reply #58 on: April 15, 2012, 07:41:43 PM »
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Marc made a 900 odd patch I can forward if you want it. He didn’t post to the blog.
I would like a copy, but I am confused. Does the original profile have to have the same number of patches?
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aaronchan
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« Reply #59 on: April 15, 2012, 10:20:20 PM »
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Marc made a 900 odd patch I can forward if you want it. He didn’t post to the blog.

Would you send me a copy as well?
I've tried the 2 thousand whatever one and it didn't work.
I would like to spend a bit less time to do a bit more experiment on this optimization module.

Thanks
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