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Author Topic: Moonrise over Manaslu - Nepal  (Read 10997 times)
Enda Cavanagh
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« Reply #60 on: April 24, 2012, 06:25:03 PM »
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I think when Terry says

No, these forums shouldn't turn into a forum where everyone replies "great shot" or "+1". I just find that it too easy to simply criticize rather than provide critical input towards improvement. It is so easy to say "Yep, it's been done before" that even that comment is now "ubiquitous, cliche and kitsch".

than it's fair to say that he wants *constructive criticism (now you've got me quoting)

* Meaning. criticism or advice that is useful and intended to help or improve something, often with an offer of possible solutions.

Constructive criticism could point out a bucket of mistakes and that's fair enough. I think Terry is just looking for shall we say a wee bit more diplomacy.

PLEASE DO NOT QUOTE ME ISSAC. SPARE ME THAT. Grin

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Keith Reeder
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« Reply #61 on: April 25, 2012, 07:00:55 AM »
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Well assuming there was any point at all in posting up the image in the first place, presumably it was to elicit a response, even though this isn't a C&C forum, and no C&C was requested.

On the basis of that assumption - and seriously, why else? - then mission accomplished, I'd say: in which case, what's the problem with any reaction to the image so far contributed?

For the record, while I agree that it's cliché and overdone as a style ( something that's unavoidable for most of us, regardless of our chosen genre(s)), my first reaction to the image was "Mmmm... I'd like that on my wall".

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Keith Reeder
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« Reply #62 on: April 25, 2012, 08:35:57 AM »
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I'm sure the vast majority of photographers here want a critique whether it be positive or negative and not to have their egos inflated.

Yeah but Enda, this isn't a critique forum in the first place - the forum that fulfils that purpose is here: http://www.luminous-landscape.com/forum/index.php?board=26.0.

So - given that any image presented here without a specific stated purpose that accords with the purpose of the forum seems fundamentally to subvert the intent of the forum (which according to its description is discussion of "technical and aesthetic issues" relating to landscape and nature photography) - surely it shouldn't really be posted at all, much less that the forum be used as an individual's personal showcase.
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Keith Reeder
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Isaac
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« Reply #63 on: April 25, 2012, 12:58:13 PM »
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I think Terry is just looking for shall we say a wee bit more diplomacy.
Perhaps Slobodan is looking for a wee bit less diplomacy.

afaict there's nothing about this discussion forum that puts either of them in the wrong.
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Slobodan Blagojevic
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« Reply #64 on: April 25, 2012, 01:40:09 PM »
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... The problem for many it seems has nothing do do with negative critique. What people seem to have a problem with is that some members post repeated condescending comments about images and in a very arrogant way...

Enda,

Given that I started this "storm in a teacup" on this thread, I assume you are referring to my posts as "arrogant and condescending"? I respect your right to have (and express it freely) whatever opinion of me or my posts. If that is what you think, I will not "take you to task" for it, but it would be interesting to know what made my specific post on this thread "arrogant and condescending"?
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Slobodan

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Enda Cavanagh
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« Reply #65 on: April 25, 2012, 02:01:08 PM »
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Hi Slobodan.
I wasn't specifically talking about yourself to be honest. I was talking about the way a lot of posts seems to be going these days where the whole point of the post gets lost in a maze of quotes and arraogance. Wink
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sierraman
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« Reply #66 on: April 25, 2012, 03:38:00 PM »
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Hi Slobodan.
I wasn't specifically talking about yourself to be honest. I was talking about the way a lot of posts seems to be going these days where the whole point of the post gets lost in a maze of quotes and arraogance. Wink
I came over this this site from D.P. Review hoping to enjoy a truly "Professional" forum. But I have to agree people on this site get way off topic way too often.
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brandtb
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« Reply #67 on: April 25, 2012, 04:50:56 PM »
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"Gentlemen, you can't fight in here! This is the War Room!!" -President Merkin Muffley
 
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Brandt Bolding
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« Reply #68 on: April 25, 2012, 07:15:30 PM »
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Given that I started this "storm in a teacup"...

On this occasion you were more sinn'd against than sinning - I don't think you can take credit for this "storm in a teacup" away from Terry.

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Enda Cavanagh
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« Reply #69 on: April 25, 2012, 07:43:38 PM »
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Keith
What exactly do you call it when someone comments on the technical or aesthetic aspect of an image if it's not a critique? A critique is a detailed analysis and assessment of something. What do you think one discusses in a critique that is not primarily the technical or aesthetic aspect of an image. A critique can be positive and negative. That is what Shadowblade has received here. Some positive and some negative. I don't think Terry meant that the discussion should be just positive. I think his point has been lost by many. If you don't know what the point is well.... Roll Eyes
 
And why do you suggest it was posted here without a specific purpose? The fact that it IS posted here does mean that is open to comments about it's technical and aesthetic aspect. Shadowblade has not sated anything to the contrary. Shadowblade countered the comments made to him. I might be missing something but that is a discussion about the technical and aesthetic aspect of the image.


Yeah but Enda, this isn't a critique forum in the first place - the forum that fulfils that purpose is here: http://www.luminous-landscape.com/forum/index.php?board=26.0.

So - given that any image presented here without a specific stated purpose that accords with the purpose of the forum seems fundamentally to subvert the intent of the forum (which according to its description is discussion of "technical and aesthetic issues" relating to landscape and nature photography) - surely it shouldn't really be posted at all, much less that the forum be used as an individual's personal showcase.
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Keith Reeder
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« Reply #70 on: April 26, 2012, 04:55:15 AM »
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The OP simply posted a picture, Enda - there was no direction of travel indicated for the ensuing discussion - no "What could I have done better here?" or "Are the star trails too long? Too short?", nothing.

This is not a gallery/showcase forum, Enda, and if he wanted a critique, there's a specific, dedicated forum for that.

While I take your point about the semantics, it's still clear enough that whatever this forum is for, it's not for C&C, nor is it a showcase, and yet that's clearly what it is being used as.
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Keith Reeder
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Enda Cavanagh
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« Reply #71 on: April 26, 2012, 06:59:50 AM »
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Keith
Just because he posted the photo without any indication of possible technical or aesthetic issues does not mean he did not want comments on the photos in that regard. The fact he posted in this forum one would assume that that is why he put it here. Keith not every photographer is a beginner with obvious weaknesses. Just because he himself might not have felt or noticed there are some "issues" does not mean he was not open to comments. At no point did he indicate that people should do anything of the contrary.

I have posted numerous photos on LL in this forum. I usually post them just after uploading them to my site. Sometimes it's to illustrate a technique and always it is open to discussion about the aesthetic or technical aspect of the photo. Sometimes I had a few things pointed out that I have simply missed. Halos for example. This is partly due to the fact that I got used the photo after a while and I simply missed it. That was also in a post where my technique was discussed. Are you saying that people should just comment on how the photo was taken and if someone sees a possible error that they have to keep schtum because of people like you. Give us a break. The 2 are intertwined. The fact that he countered arguments about star trails and exposures has actually educated some people on night photography.

The OP simply posted a picture, Enda - there was no direction of travel indicated for the ensuing discussion - no "What could I have done better here?" or "Are the star trails too long? Too short?", nothing.

This is not a gallery/showcase forum, Enda, and if he wanted a critique, there's a specific, dedicated forum for that.

While I take your point about the semantics, it's still clear enough that whatever this forum is for, it's not for C&C, nor is it a showcase, and yet that's clearly what it is being used as.
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shadowblade
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« Reply #72 on: April 26, 2012, 07:25:00 AM »
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But would you call these (Yan Zhang's photo) long trails or are they medium? ;-)


I'd consider them medium. They're actually not much shorter than mine - just that I captured a lot more of them.
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shadowblade
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« Reply #73 on: April 26, 2012, 07:30:29 AM »
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Well assuming there was any point at all in posting up the image in the first place, presumably it was to elicit a response, even though this isn't a C&C forum, and no C&C was requested.

On the basis of that assumption - and seriously, why else? - then mission accomplished, I'd say: in which case, what's the problem with any reaction to the image so far contributed?

For the record, while I agree that it's cliché and overdone as a style ( something that's unavoidable for most of us, regardless of our chosen genre(s)), my first reaction to the image was "Mmmm... I'd like that on my wall".

Which is what I like to aim for in a lot of my photos.

After all, cliches are cliche for a reason - because they work, and because they look good. Sure, the sun setting over the sea may be cliche (the interest is really in the foreground detail) but that's because same scene at midday is probably flat, dull and boring.
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Isaac
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« Reply #74 on: April 26, 2012, 11:22:28 AM »
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After all, cliches are cliche for a reason - because they work, and because they look good.
As a National Geographic photo editor supposedly said - I don't care if it's a cliché as-long-as it's the best cliché I've ever seen!

Sure, the sun setting over the sea may be cliche (the interest is really in the foreground detail) but that's because same scene at midday is probably flat, dull and boring.
Given enough sunset photos, midday light starts to look novel and distinctive ;-)

Obviously it also depends on what the photos are about.


... if I may say so, it looks fairly spectacular printed large on Bay Photo's MetalPrints.
You certainly may.

Have you come across pictures that didn't look more spectacular printed large, pictures where a more impressive size detracted from the picture and you preferred the smaller print? (I don't mean because larger size revealed problems with image quality.)
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Isaac
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« Reply #75 on: April 26, 2012, 12:13:56 PM »
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Just because he posted the photo without any indication of possible technical or aesthetic issues does not mean he did not want comments on the photos in that regard.
True.

The fact he posted in this forum one would assume that that is why he put it here.
You might, I might, Keith might not, Terry might not - it's just an assumption.

Keith not every photographer is a beginner with obvious weaknesses.
True, and it's also true that some are.
What can be done to help warn them that, on this particular forum, some people probably will make negative comments about their favourite photo?


... they have to keep schtum because of people like you.

"people like you" !

I suppose, not being welcome to say whatever we like, might be considered to be some kind of small hardship. Then again, it always seems to depend on whether we are the ones doing the saying, or whether things are being said to us.
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Slobodan Blagojevic
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« Reply #76 on: April 26, 2012, 02:48:56 PM »
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A Few Random Thoughts on The Purpose of This Forum


As usual, this debate ended up polarized: personal gallery vs. C&C. Binary world, yes/no, black/white. I like mine in shades of gray (an while we are at it, in 16-bit at least, please). In other words, and in my opinion, it should neither be a personal gallery nor C&C as expected in the other forum (User Critique). It should be all of that and something in between. So, what would be the difference then?

First, a simple and obvious one: this is a landscape-only forum, while the other is a more general one (street, portrait, etc., including landscape).

But the real difference should be, again in my humble opinion, in how the integrity of the posted photo is treated, i.e., whether alterations of it are allowed as part of comments.

It is assumed that a post in the User Critique forum implicitly asks, or often quite explicitly, "how can I improve this?", "is my post-processing o.k.?", "what would you suggest?", etc. In that spirit, some critiques would go beyond a verbal recommendation and into a reprocessing of the originally posted photograph, often suggesting different crops, conversion to b&w, color corrections, etc.

In this forum, however, it's been assumed that such alterations should not take place. It is assumed that, when landscape posters are choosing between the two forums, they select this one because they are more knowledgable and more confident in their final result and are not looking for a critique that would be more suitable for beginners. What they are looking for, allow me to assume further, is the esthetic or other impact their image might have on the audience. In that respect, opinions will inevitably vary, thus no one in his sane mind (and healthy ego) should expect acclamations  only.

Another aspect of posting in this forum is that many advanced posters are quite sensitive, rightly or wrongly, when it comes to the integrity of their work, i.e., they do not like to see their work "mutilated". Fair enough and that should be respected.

On a personal note, I made at least in one instance a transgression of the above guideline, by simply overlooking in which forum the  post was placed, and proceeded with a detailed and graphical demonstration of my comments, including a reworked photo. I belatedly realized what I did, edited my original post with an explanation and offered to delete the post if the OP found it objectionable. He did, I apologized and removed it.

And that is how I see the difference between the two forums, folks.


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Slobodan

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Isaac
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« Reply #77 on: April 26, 2012, 04:05:13 PM »
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But the real difference should be...
Whatever the real difference should be, my guess is that the decisive difference when landscape posters are choosing between the two forums is the simple and obvious difference you noted - this is the first forum where new posts are predominantly people posting their landscape photos.

Whatever shades of gray the purpose of this forum covers, can we find a way to use the forum title and description to communicate the kinds of response posters should expect when they post their photo here?
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Keith Reeder
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« Reply #78 on: April 27, 2012, 06:46:49 AM »
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So in other words, Enda, you're happy with your own interpretation of what discussion of "technical and aesthetic issues" (my emphasis) means, and you won't brook any alternative interpretation.

Frankly there's little ambiguity in the stated purpose of the forum - but you're obviously quite happy to twist it in whichever way suits your mood. That doesn't make you right - "technical and aesthetic issues" does not, not matter how much you twist it, equal "say something nice about my picture..."

And "people like me"?

I'll overlook the sweeping, uninformed and inaccurate nature of that cheap dig, and simply say that I make no apology for being able to read, Enda...
« Last Edit: April 27, 2012, 06:52:53 AM by Keith Reeder » Logged

Keith Reeder
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« Reply #79 on: April 27, 2012, 06:51:33 AM »
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First, a simple and obvious one: this is a landscape-only forum

No it ain't - it's Landscape and Nature. Maybe I should start posting some completely contextless bird images, eh?
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Keith Reeder
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