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Author Topic: RED carpet bombs NAB  (Read 8819 times)
ChristopherBarrett
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« on: April 16, 2012, 07:44:30 AM »
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Several announcements hit RedUser in the wee hours.  This one in particular has me a little anxious...

http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?77169-Dragon

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fredjeang
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« Reply #1 on: April 16, 2012, 09:46:51 AM »
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 Grin

Have you seen the reactions-posts in the Forum ?

I thought I was in a 70's hippy camp on acids. "could you pass me my dose? pleaaaase"
Or a congregation of sisters in extasy arround the figure of the sensor.

The dragon logo looks like a 80' low-end heavy metal band from Detroit record's cover.

I wonder if all this, that I loved at first, is not turning into a sort of happy sect. I perceive a wipeout. (I'm sort of kidding here but not totally)

Where is the Detox Team GM van?


« Last Edit: April 16, 2012, 10:20:23 AM by fredjeang » Logged
fredjeang
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« Reply #2 on: April 16, 2012, 11:09:31 AM »
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mmm...

Do you remember this wonderfull place you wanted to go on hollidays with your wife some years ago?

Or this hybrid electric car you planned to buy to help saving planet earth atmosphere?

Or this talented young actor you wanted to hire for 6.000?

Or the roof of your holliday home that had to be repaired after the latest storm?

Or those wonderfull skiing resorts in the Alps that are waiting for you to ride?

Dont let yourself fall into the Dragon's claws. Resist !

 
« Last Edit: April 17, 2012, 02:18:25 AM by fredjeang » Logged
bcooter
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« Reply #3 on: April 16, 2012, 12:15:54 PM »
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2k, 4k, 6k, I guess 8,10,12k is coming.  We'll all talk about this until our heads spin and this so mirrors the medium format dslr conversation that went on for a decade in still photography.

Red is the medium format camera of the motion world, Sony, Canon, JVC all at 4k are the dslr equivalents.

Just like in medium format, RED has some more work to do in stability, usability, speed, etc., before they'll be as easy to use as their lower costs 4k competition, but that's the way this industry goes.

I do know this . . . if you going  to even think about cutting in 4k to 6k, you'd better start looking at those HP peecees with a trillion drives, a million gigs of ram and video cards that could power HBO coast to coast.

Today, we shot lifestyle, tomorrow dialog.  For today I used the Sony 2k fs100, looks great, autofocus, shoots fast,  throws backgrounds medium soft . . . works.   Shot about the same amount with the Scarlet at 4k, looks good, throws backgrounds medium soft, allows us to do some more adjustments in post that the Sony (not a lot but some) and takes more care and is more difficult to use as you have to manual focus, you have to deal with the fact the Scarlet doesn't let you play back and sound sample in camera (you can sound sample while shooting, not just playback) and of course the focus is critical to get it right, especially if your hand holding. 

Like medium format stills the Scarlet, R1 and Epic are much better with some solid support, where the sony is an easier camera to hand hold, but hey, that's the price you pay for a raw file 4k camera.  Now 6k, ok RED one upped them all.

I don't blame RED, hell I respect the heck out of them and like their product, though like the original Canon 1ds I like the R1 better than the Scarlet, I'm sure would like it even better than the Epic, but that's just me.

Anyway, we've seen this story before and though 99.9% of everything shot with a 6k camera is going to play on the web, there still will be a large market for it . . . I guess.

Time will tell, but if I was Sony and Canon, I'd be on Adobe's doorstep, cash in hand asking them to come out with a lightroom style color grading suite that actually worked fast and accurate.

If I was in the equipment making business, I think I'd find a way to make 800 watt hmi's by the thousands for thousands less.

IMO

BC
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fredjeang
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« Reply #4 on: April 16, 2012, 01:04:34 PM »
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2k, 4k, 6k, I guess 8,10,12k is coming.  We'll all talk about this until our heads spin and this so mirrors the medium format dslr conversation that went on for a decade in still photography.

Red is the medium format camera of the motion world, Sony, Canon, JVC all at 4k are the dslr equivalents.

Absolutly. And it's just the beginning and we won't be safe of the same nonsence format-reso-versus conversations we had in stills.
We'll see thousands of people shooting plumpy models on malls coralls in 6, 7, 10K motion cameras and fences and garden shots in ultra high res are going to flowrish the vimeo lists.

I do know this . . . if you going  to even think about cutting in 4k to 6k, you'd better start looking at those HP peecees with a trillion drives, a million gigs of ram and video cards that could power HBO coast to coast.

It's a wise advice.


Anyway, we've seen this story before and though 99.9% of everything shot with a 6k camera is going to play on the web, there still will be a large market for it . . . I guess.

Time will tell, but if I was Sony and Canon, I'd be on Adobe's doorstep, cash in hand asking them to come out with a lightroom style color grading suite that actually worked fast and accurate.

Totally agree. Adobe is gona be the major player IMO.

So we're back for another round in the same saga as the one we already experienced in still.
« Last Edit: April 16, 2012, 01:08:33 PM by fredjeang » Logged
BJL
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« Reply #5 on: April 16, 2012, 01:06:40 PM »
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This actually sounds like a good fit to the coming generation of 4K cinema projectors: 6K with RED's Bayer CFA is about what is needed to make the most of those 4K projectors, which deliver all three primary colors at all 4096x2160 pixels.

Likewise, for resolution this is about on par with the Sony F65, which has 20 million total pixels vs about 18 million for the RED Dragon), with 10 million green pixels laid out on a rectangular grid to roughly match the 4096x2160 output, and then half as many of each of red and blue, arranged diagonally (like in the old Fujifilm SuperCCD.) Details at Sony's site here

But that Sony F65 costs about $65,000!
« Last Edit: April 16, 2012, 01:14:56 PM by BJL » Logged
Hywel
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« Reply #6 on: April 16, 2012, 02:06:26 PM »
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I couldn't really care less about 6K for the moment- but as others have said, if you're genuinely aiming at 4K output with a Bayer sensor, oversampling is your best buddy.

15 stops of dynamic range? That I'll be interested in seeing, and that seems worth making a noise about. Even if it comes purely through HDR, at least RED have an ecosystem to do that.

RED fanboys are scary cultists. RED User is going to be a Woodstock of "you da man!" posts for a week or two. But you've got to admire the company for offering this as a sensor upgrade to customers with existing cameras. $6k may not be cheap, but it is a lot cheaper than a new Epic. And it makes Panasonic's $250 firmware upgrade to allow my AF100 to record 1080/50p (as opposed to 1080/25p overcranked to 2x producing, oh 50 fps but WITHOUT THE SOUND) seem a bit insulting, really.

You do need a kick-arse computer to handle this, no doubt, but it's no worse in terms of data rate than a day's shoot with a Hasselblad MFDB at full chat…

  Cheers, Hywel.


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BJL
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« Reply #7 on: April 16, 2012, 03:01:48 PM »
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And the answer to what we project all this 4K video on: apart from Sony 4K projectors in cinemas and its $30,000 4K projector home use, RED has now announced a 4K home projector for $10,000, plus one for cinemas: http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?77171-REDray-Projector

At $10,000, this does start to become a likely upgrade for many upscale suburban man-caves.
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ChristopherBarrett
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« Reply #8 on: April 16, 2012, 05:17:47 PM »
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Exactly, Hywel.... I mean the extra res is cool, but it's the DR that has me pretty psyched.  I mean, the DR or my Epic and R1 are already damn good, but it's nice to have some padding.
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bcooter
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« Reply #9 on: April 16, 2012, 11:55:35 PM »
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I'm all for new stuff, if it makes the photo prettier . . . and I know prettier is a broad term, but with digital video I refuse to get caught up in fanboyism, or the bigger is better, gotta upgrade every NAB, or Announcekina just because somebody wants to sell you something new.

Having three RED products and if the new sensor was out today (today in RED terms can mean 2014 or in a week, depending on who you talk to ), dropping 18k and putting equipment out of commission doesn't overwhelm me.  

I'm not saying were not going there, though it took the broadcast industry 20 years just to go to 720 and 1080 high def, so I'm not holding my breath until Bruce Willis calls and say he's gotta be shot in 6k for 25 million.  Then I guess I call and beg RED to go onto list 3, phase 4, slot 96.

All of us here are independent production companies, whether we are one man bands or have 10 people and 18k isn't an earth shattering number, but 18 k will let you go shoot something of 30 seconds or some that's pretty tremendous of you know the right talent to put in the room.

I'm a little more stoked by the Sony just because it's an 8grand  camera, has inboard ND's and the ossibility of autofocs with new e-mount lenses.  I'm less stoked that it's $8,000 and would like for it to be about the same as the 2k version, because if I'm going to drop any more money on this stuff it's going to be in content, because that's where I make "my" money . . . in content.   6k sensors don't mean squat if the content sucks.  

Now I do like the fact that RED at least allows an upgrade, though something really different is going to have to happen before they can pry my R-1's from our hands, because those cameras shoot pretty.  A lot prettier in my opinion than the Scarlet, and the Scarlet is still a work in progress.

We we're shooting yesterday and I was running one long lifestyle take for about 10 minutes in Milan and the fans kicked in full blast.  Luckily the sound was for scratch and secondary use, (this section will be mostly voice over).  Also for some reason my scarlet won't play sound on camera playback (which can scare the crap out of you and takes time to listen to it on the computer, for safety.   I wonder how hot a 6k sensor will get or if RED has that figured out, or if RED has the Scarlet figured out, or if . . .

IMO

BC

Disclaimer.   I'm over three weeks into a 4 country gig, Milan until Thursday, then off to London and none of us have had more than 5 hours sleep a night (that's being generous).  Film making makes still photography production look like part time work due to the hours, so I'm a bit on the grumpy side.

Regardless, of everything we shot, the images I love are the ones that look good and blow the story away, the one's that don't regardless of rez., may be technically correct, but unless your careful you;ll put people to sleep.

Content blows technique away and someday photographers, dp's directors are going to realize the camera is number 6 on the list of making interesting content.

Content really is king, not pixels, dr or promises.

Disclaimer 2 - I have only owned three digital cameras that worked as promised out of the box.  My R-1's which had been on the market for nearly two years so all the kinks were worked out, my original canon 1ds which I still think was the defining still camera and my Phase One p30+ back, later the p21+ back.  They were all plug and play and took me about 30 minutes to learn them.  On the other hand I've spend days reading, testing leaning the Scarlet and I'll admit I still don't have a handle on that camera, not where I trust it and myself 100%. 






« Last Edit: April 17, 2012, 12:03:58 AM by bcooter » Logged
fredjeang
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« Reply #10 on: April 17, 2012, 03:52:39 AM »
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The wipeout I perceive, but I can be wrong, is in the mentality.

I think that Red's apportation within this industry is exemplary.

But I can't help feeling that this now is derivating into, not only a strong fanboyism, but JJ sounds like a monarch.
It reminds me those politicians who are successfull; the second time they are re-elected power rises in their mind and they end acting like small despotic dictators.

It's known that in the Red forum, some users have been banned, and among serious Red clients and fans, just because they dared critisize the brand. The Bloom case is just
the tip of an iceberg that doesn't seems very healphy to me.

In the owner's post I read this: "We reserve the right to refuse service to anyone with a bad attitude".
What does that means? it's not clear to me if what they call "bad attitude" is being rude, unpolite, or if constructive criticisms are also not allowed.

This, I don't like. Canon or Sony or Pana service the pros, the buyer, regardless of whatever attitude involved. But it seems that entering Red is in the end like entering a Sicilian familly.
You're in, as soon as you praise the godfather. But if you don't, they'd kick you out of the circle.

There are many ways to do that. A slow service could be one. Banning is another.

I'm not saying that my words here are truth, but just a perception shared also by others, included long time Red owners.

We should not forget that this is in big part a familly business model. This is not Sony. And familly business have their advantages and weaknesses.

They've been the first, they've been really good and they deserve the success. But the mentality involved behind is not for me at all the more I see it.

Now the industry is moving its ass and we'll have much more to choose from in Raw and high-res.
  
« Last Edit: April 17, 2012, 03:58:22 AM by fredjeang » Logged
bcooter
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« Reply #11 on: April 17, 2012, 05:25:27 PM »
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What does that means? it's not clear to me if what they call "bad attitude" is being rude, unpolite, or if constructive criticisms are also not allowed.

  

Fred,

You have to go into the Red pre de-tox room and memorize this saying "you da man, you da man, ou da man."

Then you have to learn some phrases like, "I can't wait to get 16 stops of dr for my utube video" and "6000 pixels . . . wow . . . I can't wait until the housing market improves and I can buy one of those 6k projectors for my man cave".   $6,000 to upgrade my camera, I can't wait and I hope I get on top of Phase 3, Section 12 of the Phase A, Red preferred buyers list".  Lastly you must memorize your RED REP's phone number, though that will only go to voice mail.

Now please repeat the above until you can recite it in your sleep, or we can always have the Van pick you up.



IMO

BC
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fredjeang
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« Reply #12 on: April 17, 2012, 05:34:09 PM »
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 Grin Grin

I just saw that before going to bed while closing the workstation. I was dead after a full day shooting a music band's video and literally falled asleep on the sofa.

I saw the detox Van and it made me laugh again.

You made my night.

Cheers.
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bcooter
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« Reply #13 on: April 17, 2012, 11:36:13 PM »
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Grin Grin

I just saw that before going to bed while closing the workstation. I was dead after a full day shooting a music band's video and literally falled asleep on the sofa.

I saw the detox Van and it made me laugh again.

You made my night.

Cheers.

Fred,

All kidding aside.

Get your hands on an R-1.  Seriously, it's ready for prime time.  It may use a lot of RED only pieces like LCD's, connectors and those mini xlr inputs, but it is a solid production camera.  Get a good set of sticks and no you don't have to buy a $15,000 Cartoni just get a carbon fiber tripod with a good head, maybe a quick release shoulder mount like from Zacuto or a few of the other makers, learn the camera, cause it's only gonna take a day to get use to it, put some Nikon still glass on it, (I recommend zeiss) get a battery belt clip to keep the weight down and you'll have a camera that you can shoot about anything in the world on.  

Sure it doesn't have REDMOTE, or no thought about a $6,000 6k upgrade, or a glossy shine in your face touch screen (you'll be glad it doesn't), but mine are serious machines that run and run and run.

I think it's the best thought out piece of military grade equipment you can own and the files are to die for.

If it only would allow some kid of berger mount so you could use is lenses, and . . .  choke, cough, hide your face in shame, autofocus, it would be absolutely perfect.

The Epic I know nothing about, because even though I ordered it, $50,000 plus the fact that it was brand new put me off.  The Scarlet, I bought, but is definitely a work in progress and need firmware upgrades or something  to get to the point that it's a real production tool, that I'm not sure if it will get there or not.

Today I shot it the R-1 on sticks and hand held, backlit, light fill, in about every situation possible and the files just blow me away.   Sure you;; need real ND filters and have to learn to lift an 8lb camera without trashing your back, but this is the camera that earned RED it's reputation and if I was them  would have continued on with it,'s development, while maybe introducing the Scarlet or Epic

So yes, the RED user forum is a fanboy based theme and that's their decision, though I believe the more open and honest conversation a manufacturer provides, the better the product, the better the more useful the conversation.

To me the R-1 is kind of like my Contax and 30mp backs.  It's not state of the art, but it's tested and solid and exceeds anything I'm required to use.

It's also a camera that like the days of film, transcends newer developments and is a camera you can use until you wear it out.

IMO

BC
« Last Edit: April 17, 2012, 11:37:45 PM by bcooter » Logged
Petrus
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« Reply #14 on: April 18, 2012, 12:50:56 AM »
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2k, 4k, 6k, I guess 8,10,12k is coming. 

Just out of curiosity I made some fast calculations about how much resolution we actually need for cinema viewing. If we think that the screen needs not to be wider than what we can comfortably see without turning our heads (and to read the subtitles without straining our necks), taking in consideration the angular resolution of the human eye (1.2 arcminute per line pair, or a 0.35 mm line pair, at 1 m), the maximum resolution needed seems to be 4K, regardless of the screen size.

Bigger resolution would be needed only for "virtual windows" etc.
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hjulenissen
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« Reply #15 on: April 18, 2012, 04:07:20 AM »
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Just out of curiosity I made some fast calculations about how much resolution we actually need for cinema viewing. If we think that the screen needs not to be wider than what we can comfortably see without turning our heads (and to read the subtitles without straining our necks), taking in consideration the angular resolution of the human eye (1.2 arcminute per line pair, or a 0.35 mm line pair, at 1 m), the maximum resolution needed seems to be 4K, regardless of the screen size.

Bigger resolution would be needed only for "virtual windows" etc.
Not sure what you mean by "virtual window", but I think that movie directors would spend screen size and resolution differently if there were no limits.

E.g. 360 degree spherical coverage could still be beneficial for some artistic goals, even if only a segment could be used for subtitles. And then you would probably need more than 4000 pixels horizontally to guarantee sharpness all over. Not sure if that requirement makes sense, though.

Philips have been using rgb leds behind their tv sets to "extend" the environment of the video content to the wall/ceiling surfaces behind, above and to the sides of the image. This may or may not enhance the feeling of "being there". Humans have a 100x180 degrees FOV even without moving their head.

-h
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Petrus
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« Reply #16 on: April 18, 2012, 04:42:25 AM »
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Not sure what you mean by "virtual window", but I think that movie directors would spend screen size and resolution differently if there were no limits.

"virtual window", my own invention: a huge high resolution wall/window which is not meant for cinema etc., but visual ambience, meybe in 3D. In the far future...

If we think about the present cinema aesthetic the angular screen dimensions I used in my calculation (about 50 degrees horizontal) seem to be quite ideal, but of course there are "immersion" cinemas like IMAX already, but would we really prefer that format for all movies and TV? I strongly doubt it, but I could be proved wrong in 100 years time.
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hjulenissen
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« Reply #17 on: April 18, 2012, 05:29:48 AM »
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...of course there are "immersion" cinemas like IMAX already, but would we really prefer that format for all movies and TV? I strongly doubt it, but I could be proved wrong in 100 years time.
Regular tvs/cinemas are a subset of IMAX screens (smaller). If all cinemas offered IMAX-type screens, some content could concievably still be limited to a subset of the screen similar to a regular screen.

The way I see it, larger screens (with a resolution to suit) would only increase the possibilities for those making content. Of course, price and practicallity are drawbacks.

My personal experience from friends and familys tv habits is that they have increased tv size as the price per area have made it economical to go from 32"->42"->50". It seems that they are satisfied with this larger image, even for news and other "background" watching. I don't see any signs of this trend slowing down.

-h
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BFoto
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« Reply #18 on: April 18, 2012, 06:00:06 AM »
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Grin



The dragon logo looks like a 80' low-end heavy metal band from Detroit record's cover.



I thought of the early 90's PC game "Heretic".
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BJL
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« Reply #19 on: April 18, 2012, 09:28:46 AM »
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If we think that the screen needs not to be wider than what we can comfortably see without turning our heads (and to read the subtitles without straining our necks), taking in consideration the angular resolution of the human eye (1.2 arcminute per line pair, or a 0.35 mm line pair, at 1 m), the maximum resolution needed seems to be 4K, regardless of the screen size.
That sounds reasonable ... and is about what Sony says in its propaganda in the opposite direction, arguing for the need to upgrade from 2K to 4K cinema projectors:
http://pro.sony.com/bbsccms/static/files/mkt/digitalcinema/Why_4K_WP_Final.pdf

Sony measures viewing distance as a multiple of picture height [PH], and concludes the 2K fails at less than 2.3-3.16 PH, so that 4K is good to about 1.15-1.58PH. (Using an aspect ratio of 1.Cool. But your idea of measuring in ratio of viewing distance to picture width [PW] makes more sense, as far as imagining how much head turning is needed to see the whole scene, and then 2K is good to about 1.3-1.7PW and 4K is good down to 0.7-0.8PH.

That is: 4K is fine until you are so close that the screen is wider than your viewing distance by a factor of about 1.25-1.4. That is far closer that typical "normal viewing distance" for stills, and even allowing for the great amount of head movement in watching a wide-scree movie, this seems closer than most people would _want_ to be sitting, though Sony describes a hypothetical stadium seating cinema in which the front row seats are even closer: 0.86PH, or 0.47PW.
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