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Author Topic: RED carpet bombs NAB  (Read 11680 times)
bcooter
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« Reply #60 on: April 25, 2012, 03:07:15 AM »
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I think we're talking about different groups.

Probably most relevant to this forum is the still photographer that is looking to expand their repertoire by adding some motion, the still photographer that's making a larger shift towards motion imagery.  They want more than a 5d3.

For them raw files make sense because that's a format they're use to.  Most will shoot and hand off the footage, after usually processing out in prorezz.

For the traditional film maker, especially someone working on episodic television, the Alexa makes sense.  It's a form factor their use to and for the producer they can go straight from camera to editing in proxies without any downtime in processing raw.

Both the RED and Alexa will require a finish out look in color grading, but for the cinematographer the Alexa has it's benefits.  I just wonder how many dp's/ camera operators are going to buy vs. rent and Alexa.

You also have to keep in mind the Alexa is a 13 lb. body, which limits some usability and requires much heavier and larger support.

For the still photographer making the move to motion, especially if they are rent rather than buy type of person, the numbers for any RED make more sense, regardless of raw vs. prorezz output.

Personally I wish the RED would shoot a prorezz or raw file, depending on project.

What kind of surprises me is Arri seems to be ok with essentially a 2k system whether the standard alexa or a 4:3 system for anamorphic.

What doesn't surprise me is RED going to 6k.   I don't think anyone is going to edit in 6k, but I believe RED is thinking 6k not only sounds better, but should (time will tell) produce a better still image.

Also RED has Canon and Sony hot on their heels selling 4k raw cameras.

Obviously RED will sell their cameras to anyone, same with Arri, but I would bet RED sees an opening in the market for a dsmc camera that works for still photographers as well as film makers and a lower price point/

Now I know there is going to be the scream that buying a motion camera does not make you a film maker, but keep in mind a lot of commercial work is not centered around narrative cinema, or episodic TV.

Commercial clients are asking for video to parallel their still productions  and will continue to do so and shooting each still scene in motion does have value.  I could point out hundreds of instances but that will go no where with the traditionalist in either still or motion.

IMO

BC
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fredjeang
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« Reply #61 on: April 25, 2012, 05:51:37 AM »
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For the traditional film maker, especially someone working on episodic television, the Alexa makes sense.  It's a form factor their use to and for the producer they can go straight from camera to editing in proxies without any downtime in processing raw.

Exactly

You also have to keep in mind the Alexa is a 13 lb. body, which limits some usability and requires much heavier and larger support.

Yes, the Arri is a camera made to be operated by crew that had the structure-mediums and were operating Arri's big brothers. For the photographer making shift to motion, to expand repertoire or for larger shift, the Alexa isn't really the natural choice IMO.
I don't think that Arri is interested on us, they have their niche market already very faithful, a little bit like Grass Valley targets a niche markewt based on TVs and not that much us for wich Adobe, FCP or Vegas are more likely to be the major players.


About those 6K, honestly, when CB lauched the thread, I wasn't really enthousiastic by this Dragon, a part from the visual marketing that I find a little infantile and the fanboyism involved but that's not important in the end. Not that I thought that 6K was a bad idea, but I couldn't help smelling some old MF remake, even if I know that Red isn't PhaseOne. The thing is that each time we entered into pixels-more-pixels, it was generally at the expense of usability without talking of the non-finished producted released on the market and the we'll-see -later-how-to-fix-it-if-people-complains politics. Then the pro service and availability of the device. There are some signs that Red has a MF's soul somewhere, but it doesn't mean they will make the same mistakes. Just that I can't help feeling this "mmm..."
I know, I shouldn't extrapolate and project "fears" that Red will be the MF of the motion world. Hope they'll know how to manage that or Canon will win again on the middle term.  

The pixel race for the pixel race is not something I'd like to see one more time.
« Last Edit: April 25, 2012, 06:05:58 AM by fredjeang » Logged
bcooter
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« Reply #62 on: April 25, 2012, 10:20:32 AM »
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Fred,

I still think you've missed one point of 6k.  If it works, if it's clean and sharp it should produce excellent stills, even in the 2:1 format.

I know traditionalists in stills will go oh my god, not a video grab, but I've seen "some" sessions where the video grabs are stunning, not so much in technical quality, but in look.  There is just some things we miss in stills that 24 and 30 fps captures.

I do believe a time will come where motion frame grabs for stills will be as commonplace as anything we do in production.

Now how RED applies this will be what makes a difference, but for a small company they have come leaps and bounds.

I said it before, but they've pushed our industry like no single manufacturer.

IMO

BC

P.S.  I might have mentioned this before, but at one of our largest still rental companies I was talking to the manager and he said he's renting very little flash equipment, but tons of continuous lighting.

Whatever that means . . . you can draw your own conclusion.
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fredjeang
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« Reply #63 on: April 25, 2012, 11:34:03 AM »
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James,

I'm completly in alignement with all your lines. The 6K goodies included for still didn't escape to my radar.

I fully agree about the stills from frame grab, I saw some printed editos from Red and they are gorgeous.

It makes no doubt for me that all this "convergence" stuff (to use a shortcut) is occuring and will be the norm.

I also recognised the apportation and importance of Red within this industry. Truth that there is this cultism and all the BS involved but Red has brought
a revolution like any other player. I've applauded this many times and I think that the guys in Red have done and are doing fantastic job for us.

I just think that if they bring 6, 7 or whatever ks without messing with the rest, more than perfect. But then if they start to forget about their origins (R1), if they release beta products that would have need more dev, if they mess with proper connection, glossy screens, if we have to be in an endless waiting list, if...then, those resolution jumps...
In short, I applaude Red for what they've done past and present, I just wish they won't be the remake MF of motion.

But I have a strong respect for the brand and their products.   
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bcooter
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« Reply #64 on: April 25, 2012, 11:43:14 AM »
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Fred,

I know you knew this, but thought I'd just bring it up.  Yes I agree I don't want to see a pixel war and end up with 40mpx motion cameras. 

And I do agree that RED's releases are usually a work in progress.  They're a small company, but then again Sony is still sending our firmware updates also, so I think this is a lot of what we will always have with digital.

The R1 is now stable, but then again it's been around a while.

It's funny that it depends on who you talk to.  I've heard things about all the 2k, 4k, 5k cameras good and bad, successful and disasters.  Heard the same thing about still cameras also, but usually they were user errors, or not fully understanding the system.

These cameras are complicated, very complicated and I doubt if they'll get simpler.

IMO

BC
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fredjeang
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« Reply #65 on: April 25, 2012, 12:07:53 PM »
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And difficult to access (delays) + cult...JJ is not silly.

It reminds me something.
When I was young in Paris, I used to go to a nightclub called "Le Palace". Well, at that time we were a bunch of crazy artists (or we liked to call ourselves artists but it was more decadent than any thing else),
and the place to go for work contacts and picking international sexy girls was "Le Palace". Don't know if it still exists.
There was the Gainsbourg, Lagarfeld crowd, all top models, famous painters, and not so famous like us. The success recipy was that it was difficult to enter. It became a cult, a place to go. I was living just next to the Chantal Thomass lingery boutique and I saw her in the Palace. But we, as non famous people, we never knew if we will access it and that feeded the cult factor.

One day I realised that it was harder to enter to "chez Régine", so it becames the goal. Then I ended to be a Regine's client and it was less fun. Once you're in, nothing special occurs. But that's the sensation to be in the center of the events, and to be somewhere not everybody can access to. Silly times but lot of fun indeed.
« Last Edit: April 25, 2012, 12:13:51 PM by fredjeang » Logged
ftbt
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« Reply #66 on: April 25, 2012, 10:31:28 PM »
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... Personally I wish the RED would shoot a prorezz or raw file, depending on project.

I wouldn't hold my breath for that one. It is really not in RED's DNA to offer those sort of codecs. However, in the next week or so Epic/Scarlet owners will be able to output a clean 1080p HD signal via SDI to a Pix, so essentially you will have that flexibility ... actually better .... a clean HD feed to your Pix for easy HD editing + simultaneous 4K master footage. How good is that?

... What doesn't surprise me is RED going to 6k.   I don't think anyone is going to edit in 6k,


I doubt anyone will be editing in 6K soon. There are no 6K monitors or projectors (yet). Just like when the RED1 was introduced, no one was editing in 4K and there certainly were no 4K monitors or projectors. However, that is rapidly changing. Numerous 4K consumer panels and displays were shown in January at CES. At the RED / Light Iron Digital party at NAB there were 8 to 10 4K professional panels / monitors / displays set-up to screen the entries in the 4K Portrait Competition (all the footage had to be in 4K). I would hazard a guess that very few of you have actually seen 4K footage displayed on a 4K panel / monitor / display. I can tell you it looks AMAZING! How much "better" 6K might look is actually hard to imagine. 6K would certainly give you more framing options in post.

... but I believe RED is thinking 6k not only sounds better, but should (time will tell) produce a better still image.

... I still think you've missed one point of 6k.  If it works, if it's clean and sharp it should produce excellent stills, even in the 2:1 format.

I know traditionalists in stills will go oh my god, not a video grab, but I've seen "some" sessions where the video grabs are stunning, not so much in technical quality, but in look.  There is just some things we miss in stills that 24 and 30 fps captures.

I do believe a time will come where motion frame grabs for stills will be as commonplace as anything we do in production.

That time is rapidly approaching. There was a reason why RED took out an (expensive) 8 page fold-out ad in the April issue of "Vogue" magazine to show the stills capabilities of their DSMC cameras. Unfortunately, it seems that the "Digital Still" aspect of the DSMC concept has taken somewhat of a back-seat to the "Motion" aspects of the cameras in the development cycle. Hopefully, that will change soon as well. I can tell you that I have already printed 48" x 24" canvas giclees from 5K Epic frame-grabs (literally one frame from a 24fps motion sequence) that were "developed" in RCX PRO using the new RG3 and RC3 color science and Jim's "favorite recipe" from RCX PRO. The results were breathtaking. (One of those canvases is actually hanging on the wall in Jarred's office.) How much better would 6K be? I really don't know, but I can tell you that 5K looks very, very good. Certainly gallery quality and certainly good enough for the covers of slick fashion magazines like Vogue.


« Last Edit: April 25, 2012, 10:40:24 PM by ftbt » Logged
fredjeang
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« Reply #67 on: April 26, 2012, 02:27:25 AM »
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That time is rapidly approaching.

I think it's there.

I can tell you that 5K looks very, very good. Certainly gallery quality and certainly good enough for the covers of slick fashion magazines like Vogue.

Correct. I've seen it too. Printed output is stunning considering the "low" res for still and perfectly valid for covers. At least for fashion editos.
« Last Edit: April 26, 2012, 02:28:57 AM by fredjeang » Logged
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