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Author Topic: ColoR MANAGEMENT IN CAPTURE ONE? ( VS lightroom + colorchecker passport )  (Read 6763 times)
lpr
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« on: April 30, 2012, 11:38:36 AM »
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Hi,
(sorry if I posted this also in color management but I wasn't sure where to ask these questions )

A lot of talk seems to be going on about creating shoot specific DNG profiles with such tools as color checker passport.  From what I get, this helps you get the best out of your sensor in different light conditions. This all seem good to me .
However,  I'm a big fan of Capture one which does not support DNG profiles and am not planning on using Lightroom .

So my question now is what is the best way to do color management in Capture one ? 
From what I get Capture one uses ICC profiles made to match your camera which does what Lightroom does with their default DNG?
Then, I can do a white balance using the WB picker tool and a 18% grey card or by using the Kelvin slider.
I can then of course save these adjustment as a preset or ICC profile.
But is there more I should be doing?  Something I am missing?

The reason I am asking is because you can do all these things in lightroom too so why the need to add an extra step of creating shoot specific DNG profiles. Aren't the default DNG plus a white balance enough?   And if not, what am I to do as a capture one user?
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alain
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« Reply #1 on: May 01, 2012, 04:50:28 PM »
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Hi,
(sorry if I posted this also in color management but I wasn't sure where to ask these questions )

A lot of talk seems to be going on about creating shoot specific DNG profiles with such tools as color checker passport.  From what I get, this helps you get the best out of your sensor in different light conditions. This all seem good to me .
However,  I'm a big fan of Capture one which does not support DNG profiles and am not planning on using Lightroom .

So my question now is what is the best way to do color management in Capture one ? 
From what I get Capture one uses ICC profiles made to match your camera which does what Lightroom does with their default DNG?
Then, I can do a white balance using the WB picker tool and a 18% grey card or by using the Kelvin slider.
I can then of course save these adjustment as a preset or ICC profile.
But is there more I should be doing?  Something I am missing?

The reason I am asking is because you can do all these things in lightroom too so why the need to add an extra step of creating shoot specific DNG profiles. Aren't the default DNG plus a white balance enough?   And if not, what am I to do as a capture one user?


Take a look at QPCard they are working on a icc solution that works with C1
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digitaldog
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« Reply #2 on: May 01, 2012, 06:06:38 PM »
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A lot of talk seems to be going on about creating shoot specific DNG profiles with such tools as color checker passport.  From what I get, this helps you get the best out of your sensor in different light conditions.

Maybe... well not really. It isn’t really necessary to do this with DNG profiles despite what some who produce a DNG profile product would like you to think. There is no harm but it is questionable if it is really necessary. Generally you need a few (Daylight, Tungsten then any odd illuminant like Fluorescent, etc).

With ICC profiles, that might be considerably different. DNG profiles ‘profile’ the data in a vastly different part of the process than ICC profiles. With ICC profiles, we are profiling the actual camera capture and the processing of the output referred data. Not the case with DNG profiles (they are applied far earlier in the processing). I find one needs shoot specific ICC profiles for them to be effective far more than DNGs. ICC profiles from the get-go have always been about finger-printing and entire process which is one of the reasons I think DNG profiles make far more sense, at least as they are used in Adobe raw processing pipelines.
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Andrew Rodney
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« Reply #3 on: May 01, 2012, 07:13:08 PM »
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I find one needs shoot specific ICC profiles for them to be effective far more than DNGs.

it does not look that LR/ACR w/ a generic dual illuminant DNG profile supplied by Adobe makes a better color than C1 w/ a generic ICC supplied by P1... so how do you find what you find ? may be some examples to illustrate the superiority of DNG profiles so that we need a specific ICC profile to match a generic DNG profile ?
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digitaldog
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« Reply #4 on: May 01, 2012, 08:26:59 PM »
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it does not look that LR/ACR w/ a generic dual illuminant DNG profile supplied by Adobe makes a better color than C1 w/ a generic ICC supplied by P1... so how do you find what you find ? may be some examples to illustrate the superiority of DNG profiles so that we need a specific ICC profile to match a generic DNG profile ?

Apples and oranges. I’m referring strictly to the differences in a DNG profile and an ICC profile based on how and where the data is touched by said profile. And your opinion that Adobe doesn’t make better color than C1 is simply that, an opinion. The so called quality of raw converters are far more than just a profile.

The superiority is simple when you look at the two types of profiles. How they profile the process, where they affect the data. ICC profiles only deal with output referred data. That means the entire rendering process is in play. DNG Profiles are scene referred. They deal with a part of the rendering very early in that part of the process by design. They allow one to separate two distant parts of how we process raw data. With an ICC profile, alter a large part of the rendering process, you invalidate the profile (because of what it describes).
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Andrew Rodney
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« Reply #5 on: May 02, 2012, 01:41:41 AM »
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Apples and oranges. I’m referring strictly to the differences in a DNG profile and an ICC profile based on how and where the data is touched by said profile. And your opinion that Adobe doesn’t make better color than C1 is simply that, an opinion. The so called quality of raw converters are far more than just a profile.

The superiority is simple when you look at the two types of profiles. How they profile the process, where they affect the data. ICC profiles only deal with output referred data. That means the entire rendering process is in play. DNG Profiles are scene referred. They deal with a part of the rendering very early in that part of the process by design. They allow one to separate two distant parts of how we process raw data. With an ICC profile, alter a large part of the rendering process, you invalidate the profile (because of what it describes).

well, certainly an opinion - but opposite is also an opinion and we do not know about any cold numbers obtained by pure math and measurements... and here goes the result... regardless of "superiority" of DCP profile, where certain parts of it are applied earlier in the "rendering" (btw - we need to define "rendering") ACR/LR w/ standard dcp profiles supplied by a reputable manufacturer fails to achieve color superiority vs ICC based raw converters w/ standard ICC profiles supplied by reputable manufacturer... yes, there are other factors and many of them... however the end result is that so far dcp failed to achieve what it was intended to achieve
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sandymc
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« Reply #6 on: May 02, 2012, 04:22:59 AM »
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ICC profiles only deal with output referred data. That means the entire rendering process is in play. DNG Profiles are scene referred. They deal with a part of the rendering very early in that part of the process by design.

This is true - in theory. But in the specific case of C1, it's not at all clear to me that they are strictly using ICC profiles as output referred. They may be using ICC profiles as convenient containers rather than in the sense that a text book color management implementation would use them. The issue is, as soon as your demosaicing algorithm is one or the other form of "homogeneity-directed", you typically need to have converted out of sensor space before that.

You can get round that, e.g., convert to something that's not a final space to get the demosaicing right, then use ICC profiles later, but that's not really efficient.

Sandy
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digitaldog
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« Reply #7 on: May 02, 2012, 08:42:23 AM »
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This is true - in theory. But in the specific case of C1, it's not at all clear to me that they are strictly using ICC profiles as output referred.

That might be true, I certainly don’t know the innards of how C1 processes raw data. It doesn’t change how ICC profiles were initially designed or created by end users in terms of output referred data.
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Andrew Rodney
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« Reply #8 on: May 02, 2012, 09:44:28 AM »
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This is true - in theory. But in the specific case of C1, it's not at all clear to me that they are strictly using ICC profiles as output referred. They may be using ICC profiles as convenient containers rather than in the sense that a text book color management implementation would use them.

and so probably do all reputable raw converters that are using external (some do not, so we can't really verify what is inside - think SilkyPix for example) ICC/ICM profiles

The issue is, as soon as your demosaicing algorithm is one or the other form of "homogeneity-directed", you typically need to have converted out of sensor space before that.

You can get round that, e.g., convert to something that's not a final space to get the demosaicing right, then use ICC profiles later, but that's not really efficient.

Sandy

Sandy, why is it so - can you please explain ?
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sandymc
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« Reply #9 on: May 02, 2012, 10:12:17 AM »
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Sandy, why is it so - can you please explain ?

The algorithm is taking decisions based how "close together" colors are as to what pixel value will be most homogenous with respect to pixels near it. Typically, sensor space isn't a good place to do that - too much overlap between channels etc. The "classic" AHD algorithm goes to an LAB space - e.g., take a look at Dave Coffin's DCRaw implementation.

As I said, you don't have to do this, and depending on the totality of the pipeline, you might not want to, but typically it's easier/more efficient to get out of sensor space relatively early.

Sandy
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lpr
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« Reply #10 on: May 08, 2012, 06:35:24 AM »
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Thank you for all your answers .
It seems like it's really a matter of taste and opinion, at least for people like me who do know the technologies that go into both processes inside out. 
I will say this though, I have been working on a lot of shoots in the past couple years that were taking place at the very top level of the industry, shooting multi-million dollars budget add campaign etc , with lot's of digital agency people etc and on every single shoot we used capture one, no matter who the photographer was. Just like we also used Hasselblad H cameras and not Phase One (Though I am sure they are really good )  This leads me to think C1 is the industry standard and even though that is not in anyway of proof of it's superiority,  it at least reassures me that I am not missing out on any critical step .
 I will give Light room a try just to see it in action.
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lpr
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« Reply #11 on: May 08, 2012, 06:39:52 AM »
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Also , in my initial question I was asking if there was something else I should be doing in C1?
Upload the Raw Image,  specific ICC gets automatically applied,  check it, do a white balance with color picker on grey card. 

Something else Color wise to start from the best neutral image possible before doing any further personal taste adjustments?

Also,  other than just comparing the colors on the card to the ones on screen,   can the color patches be used in capture one (other than the grey/white ones)  to do any kind of color adjustments?

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Doug Peterson
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« Reply #12 on: May 08, 2012, 07:58:44 AM »
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[Color > Color Editor > Advanced]

1. Select a color
2. Modify the selection (make sure you have the exact range of color you want selected)
3. Adjust the color

I've got a lot of work today or I'd go into more detail.

The Color Editor in C1 is easily the least intuitive interface to pick up as a first time user of any raw developer color tool. But it is also easily the most powerful.
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