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Author Topic: DAM questions  (Read 19373 times)
Phil Indeblanc
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« on: May 03, 2012, 12:13:03 AM »
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Is this the right area to talk about DAManagers?

I look at LR and it has major limitations as a DAm. I look at C1 and love that it doesn't try and behave like one...then look at Media Pro, and it clunks out. Bridge clunks out. ACDSee has some issues, but rather great in many ways, but NO RAW preview support. I have tried just about all of them. Fast Stone, PhotoMechanic, Bibble, and about 3 or 5 others, and I do like IDImager in a number of ways. It would be a major shift from the so easy to use interface of ACDSee.


It would need to manage Raw files, and MANY other image files to include PDF, PSD, TIF, maybe even see Ai, InDesign...For the last 2, at least let me know the file exists.
I would like to see info like the Bits it has, the color space it is...ACDSee does lots of this, and then some...but no RAW preview, and it is trying to be its own RAW dev program, and less effort on stability and features in the managing area....like network friendly with DBases.

And since there is no RAW preview on viewers I know of...I wanted to ask

WHAT DO PRODUCTION HOUSES, OR AGENCIES USE???


« Last Edit: May 08, 2012, 03:15:40 AM by Phil Indeblanc » Logged

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Tony Jay
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« Reply #1 on: May 03, 2012, 01:26:20 AM »
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I look at LR and it has major limitations as a DAm. /quote]

Are you able to state what you feel are the limitations with LR regarding DAM?
Currently this is a rather broad statement that needs clarification for it to pass muster.

Regards

Tony Jay
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bjornaagedk
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« Reply #2 on: May 03, 2012, 02:20:05 PM »
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Extensis Portfolio 10 or Canto Cumulus. Both pricey but does all you mentioned.
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bjornaagedk
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« Reply #3 on: May 03, 2012, 02:24:00 PM »
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You could slso check this out: www.seefile.com
Costs a lot less but also has its limitations. A great product though.
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« Reply #4 on: May 07, 2012, 03:53:24 PM »
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Phil, Have you read Peter Krogh's "The DAM Book"? (on it's second version)? The stock photo library I use built their own. I'm positive Getty, Corbis, Alamy etc all have their own proprietary DAM systems. Fotoware (http://www.fotoware.com/) is also very comprehensive and apparently used by many news organizations in Europe and some in the USA as well.
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Ellis Vener
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Phil Indeblanc
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« Reply #5 on: May 08, 2012, 03:15:17 AM »
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Pass muster? Where are the 20 other commonly used image formats we need to manage for production? And for startes, lets cover the family file types like PDF, InDEsign, Illustrator. One that bothers me is PSD in later modes. It is rather slow, and even worse in Compat mode...The later modes save faster for large files (which is what we have), and then to put salt on the would we have to revert back to "Compatibility mode"

Since when can LR do anything but develop raw files, and see 3 other formats?(PSD, Jpeg, TIF). I would hardly call that productive if you run a business for commercial work, or even produce work for web content. If you ever supply a magazine with your image and you want to control the color conversion, say hello to PDF, and GOOD Bye to seeing it LR.  Wouldn't you like to know how many bits that file is, 16, 8 ? Color space? sRGB, CMYK...These are basics it should already coiver.,.it doesn't!

....And not seeing place holders for unsupported file types is a bit "boxed in".



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Phil Indeblanc
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« Reply #6 on: May 08, 2012, 03:19:59 AM »
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Well I read the older version The DAM Book/ 2005.

I really like how LR Exports files with all those presets and signature watermarks with resolution presets.
ACDSee also does this, which is great, but no RAW for IIQ files, and the color repro is rather bad, it is unstable with large files and switching from server to server on network.


PhotoMechanic is good for News groups. But will check out the others some of you mentioned.  I'm not a programmer, so writing one is a bit tough for me.  If ACDSee had a Developers edition that can be customized,  I would strip it down to my liking and add Phase One IIQ support.
This still doesn't allow us to see C1 or LR adjustments. That would take some time. I wish someone would work closer with C1 and Adobe to have them license RAW viewers for DAM use, so they can at least display how the RAW is developed.

Or LR could support more of image file types and make it easier for everyone...Simply select the formats to include in Folder Sync....that way it doesn't slow anything down.
« Last Edit: May 08, 2012, 03:27:32 AM by Phil Indeblanc » Logged

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Phil Indeblanc
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« Reply #7 on: May 08, 2012, 03:53:19 AM »
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SeeFile costs a lot less??? Unless you cloud your images. (I don't cloud, I like them right where they are) the option is to purchase the server license and that is a burglary of $1299!

There is a $390/month for 500GB...Hmm I wonder how much 8 to 12 TB of data will cost me...No thanks. 
Regardless nice to know the option is out there.
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Farmer
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« Reply #8 on: May 08, 2012, 05:35:24 AM »
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The price seems very reasonable.  If there's nothign else comparable at a lesser price and if they're making sales, then the market supports that.  It's clearly designed for business rather than personal use.  If you are managing digital assets worth, perhaps potentially, hundreds of thousands of dollars over a period of years, then it's not a lot.
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Tony Jay
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« Reply #9 on: May 08, 2012, 06:41:52 AM »
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Pass muster? Where are the 20 other commonly used image formats we need to manage for production? And for startes, lets cover the family file types like PDF, InDEsign, Illustrator. One that bothers me is PSD in later modes. It is rather slow, and even worse in Compat mode...The later modes save faster for large files (which is what we have), and then to put salt on the would we have to revert back to "Compatibility mode"

Since when can LR do anything but develop raw files, and see 3 other formats?(PSD, Jpeg, TIF). I would hardly call that productive if you run a business for commercial work, or even produce work for web content. If you ever supply a magazine with your image and you want to control the color conversion, say hello to PDF, and GOOD Bye to seeing it LR.  Wouldn't you like to know how many bits that file is, 16, 8 ? Color space? sRGB, CMYK...These are basics it should already coiver.,.it doesn't!

....And not seeing place holders for unsupported file types is a bit "boxed in".

Thanks for the clarification Phil.

It appears that most of your issues revolve around file conversion to various formats not supported by LR.
Photoshop offers more options including some you have mentioned.
I take your point that it would be nice not to need another piece of software to do these file conversions.

Perhaps this issue needs consideration for updating even in LR4 and definitely in LR5.
Eric Chan and Jeff Schewe might like to add some insight into the issue generally though.

Regards

Tony Jay
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Phil Indeblanc
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« Reply #10 on: May 09, 2012, 03:01:44 PM »
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Thanks for the follow up Tony, Not really the conversion, As I am fine with saving within the dev app or as you say in Photoshop, etc.  In the DAM I DO rely on export/convert to Jpeg as I watermark and send off for preview...BUT,

My main gripe is that we cannot SEE, or MANAGE these files. They are NOT AVAILABLE.

If ACDSee a $99 app was a bit more stable, handled larger files better, and was able to share the DB on Network...DONE!

This inversely (for usage purposes) works if you had LR simply support other image formats, as the cataloging and the exporting are great, with the bonus of the developer built in...well I don't care for it one way or other, as they are 2 different functions.
In fact if they split and made a proper Library manager and got rid of Bridge, LR would Develop with less effort on mem...But I do see the convenience of the single interface.


I can see enterprise usage, or even 25 plus users working on the Same database and having all sorts of control maybe be over $500 or what ever....$5000 let say.  You are not paying for the software, you pay for the service of not having down time. custom implementation, etc.
But for the studio of 10 or less, and for not even sharing same DB at the same time, I don't see why.

Many of these companies are already using the core of someone elses engineered software with some GUI and added functionality anyway.

Farmer
A reputable company should base their pricing on the technology, not the potential worth of my images.
I know this is done in many businesses...take shaving in the shower for instance...Any other mirror for this purpose is about $5 to $20. They make it fog free and with a light, you got a $49.99 mirror...AHH!??  "Intended usage"!
I find this business practice short sited in our times of the last 7 years, specially last 4. Still possible, but alternatives are many. And no company gets respect for such a business model.

I surely don't expect to do any business with SeeFile until they have something for the studio.
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john beardsworth
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« Reply #11 on: May 09, 2012, 03:22:13 PM »
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Phil, there is a LR plugin called AnyFile http://www.johnrellis.com/lightroom/anyfile.htm. I don't know if it's any good.
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Phil Indeblanc
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« Reply #12 on: May 09, 2012, 04:16:57 PM »
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I will check this out ASAP!!!! John....there maybe a Light, in the Room after all!!
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Farmer
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« Reply #13 on: May 09, 2012, 06:13:16 PM »
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Phil - I think the price is justifiable - if I have digital assets of high value, I want reliable, well supported software and that costs money.
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Tony Jay
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« Reply #14 on: May 09, 2012, 07:00:05 PM »
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My main gripe is that we cannot SEE, or MANAGE these files. They are NOT AVAILABLE.

Phil at the risk of misunderstanding your problem it is possible to re-import these images into LR.
Apologies if I have the wrong end of the stick.

Regards

Tony Jay
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Phil Indeblanc
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« Reply #15 on: May 10, 2012, 10:25:55 AM »
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Not sure I follow Tony, but it's ok if misunderstood, often may bring another perspective not considered. Though, I'm not sure I understand what you mean by being able to re-import files back into LR. :-)

The files I have interest in, like PDF, InDesign, or illUstrator, or even PNG(I have no use for PNG now, but many web dev folks do).  I also would expect LR4 to be able to handle the latest of Pjotoshop file format for PSD, not just Compatibility mode (slow for large psd files).
« Last Edit: May 14, 2012, 09:19:02 PM by Phil Indeblanc » Logged

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Scott Hargis
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« Reply #16 on: May 16, 2012, 10:10:54 AM »
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PDF would be nice. But to say that LR is "not a true DAM" strikes me as hyperbolic, at best. Like saying that a Ford sedan isn't a "true car" because it can't carry 4 tons of bricks.

As a photographer, which I assume most people on this forum are, I need support for RAW, TIFF, JPEG, and PSD. As I said, PDF would be nice, but it hasn't been a deal-breaker for me by any means.
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Dan Wells
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« Reply #17 on: May 16, 2012, 04:41:28 PM »
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I'm a little surprised that Lightroom doesn't do PDF ( I primarily use Aperture, and haven't tried to view a PDF in Lightroom), because Adobe usually tries to stick PDF in EVERYTHING...
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Phil Indeblanc
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« Reply #18 on: May 16, 2012, 10:05:47 PM »
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Maybe hyperbolic in your usage, I can understand. But it isn't a DAM...Maybe a JPEG/MostRAW/TIF/SomePSD of a DAM...but that leaves much in the imaging industry to cry about. (i.e web content creators).

A DAM is a Digital Asset Manager, and it is not limited to a file that is produced by a camera plus 1 other software; Photoshop. It also shouldn't be limited to "culling" files to a Developer that happens to have  a database as LR does. There is no Browser to see your ASSETS..How is it a manager?  It just isn't. LR is supposed to be great at unload images from a card and place in a DB. In fact it actually isn't so good at this task either.

For example: You have a 32GB card. In the day, you shot some street work, and had a few family pictures in the day, and some other specific subject you were working in for a project or FineArt. Large card, you shoot more the next day.
So now you have 3 or so catagories, as I often end up with. I have to open 3 catalogs to off load the files from 1 CF card??  Really?  this is a pain.
Where is the logic? If it had a BROWSER, I could copy or move over to the appropriate folder I have made or already exist, the "Sync" the folder to update it with the content...then do the rating and keywording and some of the "Smart collection" filing etc. Mind you, I shoot like this nearly everyday, besides studio shoots.

If you have a business or a personal library of X amount of images(lets say lots of them), unless you "Import" them(Which means to sift through them to make logical DB titles and categories), AND also means to FORGET any other file in your folders other than the RAW/TIF/JPEG, and some PSD formats)...say bye bye to all else.  Say you have logos, or PDF's or InDEsign, or PNG files?  Not knowing the true content due to lack of a Browser leaves is working blind....Forget all the complex examples and stuff I said above.....know this...

It leaves you in the dark not seeing a place holder for ANY unsupported file types. This just doesn't reflect reality for many users who look for a MANAGER that shows whats on your drives.(Browser).

As a studio which includes photography and delivery of layouts to magazines a PDF is mandatory. As is CMYK.
As a fine art photographer printing straight to RGB and the like, I totally see that, and I understand many users and lanscapers here are in that realm...but there are a good amount of us that are large circulation publisjhing photo/studios. Which translates to Print ready PDFx1a files proofed and ready to print.  Handling Ai illustrator files is standard, or working with InDesign for making the PDF is standard.
Funny enough, the formats are ALL within the Adobe family of formats

To rub a bit of alcohol on the cut....It's NOT 100% compatible with Photoshop...ironically the compatible (slower version) works, not the default CS version.

FYI, a Ford is a car, if your goal is getting from point A to point B, no matter how you (or your image) ends up looking, or feeling at the end of the trip, I can agree. But for the images sake, and how we feel at the end of the day working... I can't see this being a good analogy :-)
« Last Edit: May 16, 2012, 10:20:13 PM by Phil Indeblanc » Logged

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« Reply #19 on: May 17, 2012, 01:42:23 AM »
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Maybe hyperbolic in your usage, I can understand. But it isn't a DAM...Maybe a JPEG/MostRAW/TIF/SomePSD of a DAM...but that leaves much in the imaging industry to cry about. (i.e web content creators).

You wanna push a square peg into a round hole, you go right ahead...LR was designed (from the original roots on up) as a digital capture asset manager, nothing more. The whole purpose of LR was to deal with digital captures, nothing else.

For me, LR handles THAT job well...YMMV if you want or expect it do anything else.

I suspect you won't get a lot of traction to have LR deal with anything other than digital capture–primarily raw but JPEG, TIFF and proper PSDs thrown in. So far, your use case isn't very interesting to me...InDesign, Illustrator, PDF, web only consumable files? I couldn't care less (and remember, I'm kinda the model for the LR design and usability model).

DAM? I really couldn't care less...I organize "projects" on a per folder basis and set up my projects to be "managed" in Bridge when a wide variety of file formats are gonna be deployed.

For digital captures (original images) LR4 is fine with me...everything else is a short-term consumable files I don't give a crap about and can easily recreate. I only care about the original raws and RGB Master rendered files.

I've seen your plaintive posts for MORE from LR...doesn't move me cause you haven't really made a broad spectrum use case yet. So far it seems you are only worried about you...sorry, I don't really care about YOU.
« Last Edit: May 17, 2012, 01:44:46 AM by Schewe » Logged
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