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Author Topic: 18MP Monochrome Leica M rangefinder announced  (Read 10482 times)
Fine_Art
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« Reply #20 on: May 11, 2012, 02:38:25 AM »
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I'd love a monochrome sensor with an auto rotating filter wheel. That would be bad ass for landscapes.
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Nick Rains
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« Reply #21 on: May 11, 2012, 02:42:02 AM »
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1,3billion people, millions so rich that they dont know what to do with the money and since german products are pretty much popular here(i live in beijing) you can count 1 + 1

i guess alot of those MMs will go to china

Indeed, and there is a rumour (unconfirmed) that a Chinese person offered to buy the entire stock of the limited edition Titanium M9 when it was released at Photokina. His offer was apparently turned down.
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Nick Rains
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« Reply #22 on: May 11, 2012, 03:28:44 AM »
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Indeed, and there is a rumour (unconfirmed) that a Chinese person offered to buy the entire stock of the limited edition Titanium M9 when it was released at Photokina. His offer was apparently turned down.

That would be a color version. The Chinese don't do monochrome, because monochrome is associated with death. And although they are total suckers for top-end branding, like Hermes, if something is remotely associated with death, the chinese try to avoid it like the plague.

Russians on the other hand...
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Oscar Rysdyk
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« Reply #23 on: May 11, 2012, 05:59:50 AM »
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dpr has sample images up.  Some of them look atrocious - you simply can not over expose with this sensor and get a good result.  Once a pixel has clipped, there is no recovery possible.  Wonderful clarity but a lot of highlight clipping and blocked shadows.

I don't think I could live with a camera that has the apparent  dynamic range of a sensors from 14 years ago - look at this example:  http://www.dpreview.com/galleries/reviewsamples/photos/1950533/l1000332-dng?inalbum=leica-m-monochrom-preview-samples

Hopefully there are some conversion improvements to be seen.
« Last Edit: May 11, 2012, 06:13:18 AM by gingerbaker » Logged
hjulenissen
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« Reply #24 on: May 11, 2012, 06:12:06 AM »
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http://www.dpreview.com/news/2012/05/10/Leica-announces-M-Monochrom-18MP-Full-Frame-Mono-Rangefinder#press
Quote
To allow precise control of tonal values, the Leica M Monochrom offers a raw data histogram display to exhibit original, unprocessed and unmodified raw data. This, combined with a configurable clipping display, allows precise correction or optimization of exposures.
Someone's been listening to Guillermo :-)

Am I right that base ISO have been changed from ISO160 to ISO320 compared to the M9? Does this correspond to an increase in total photon efficiency by a factor of 2x due to removal of CFA?

-h
« Last Edit: May 11, 2012, 06:58:13 AM by hjulenissen » Logged
hjulenissen
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« Reply #25 on: May 11, 2012, 06:59:54 AM »
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I'd love a monochrome sensor with an auto rotating filter wheel. That would be bad ass for landscapes.
Any movement could give annoying discolored edges.

Are you sure that this is preferreable over stitching or multi-shot super resolution?

-h
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BJL
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« Reply #26 on: May 11, 2012, 07:26:55 AM »
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http://www.dpreview.com/news/2012/05/10/Leica-announces-M-Monochrom-18MP-Full-Frame-Mono-
Am I right that base ISO have been changed from ISO160 to ISO320 compared to the M9?
Does this correspond to an increase in total photon efficiency by a factor of 2x due to removal of CFA?
Yes to the first; almost certainly yes to the second.

Looking at the Quantum Efficiency curves for various Kodak monochrome and color CCDs, the former typically have about twice the QE, and so twice the saturation-based minimum ISO speed.

Look at the 60% QE of the monochrome KAF16803 for example at
http://www.kodak.com/ek/US/en/Image_Sensor_Solutions/Products/Full_Frame_CCD.htm
But do not look only at the peak QE at selected colors for the color versions but instead look at the overall curves, where the average seems to be around 30% or less.
« Last Edit: May 11, 2012, 08:53:39 AM by BJL » Logged
Tim Boatman
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« Reply #27 on: May 11, 2012, 12:04:58 PM »
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A monocromatic sensor does have better resolving power than a regular color one, but that is the only positive thing about this "new invention". What is lost is the infinite manipulation possibilities what PS, Lightroom etc give us to adjust how the colors are interpreted in the B&W image. This is a huge downside, I mean HUGE. The person buying this camera must fulfill several criteria: wealthy, likes B&W, interested in photography, does no know anything about digital photography and the B&W manipulation possibilities it affords. How many of those are there in the world?

Michael was right in his review, "Let's get the poo pooing out of the way first. A lot of people simply are not going to get it. "It" being the need for an expensive digital M Leica that only shoots in B&W. That's OK. This camera then is simply not for you. So lighten up, and recognize that there are people for whom the rangefinder ethos and the monochrome aesthetic is a passion and a calling. There's nothing elitist going on, just a different mindset and sensibility than yours.

Frankly, it's going to be depressing to read some of the online forums over the next few weeks, where self-proclaimed experts are going to question the raison d'etre of the M Monochrom"

Some people get that less is more.  Having color stripped away from the photographer, liberates them to concentrate on tonality, and design elements.  As far as not being able to adjust how the colors are interpreted in Lightroom, well thats a relief isn't it - less time in Lightroom Wink  Of course when shooting one can always put a color filter on, to get much of those effects in the camera.  Admittedly not as flexible as doing it in post, but that is OK with me.  On the up side you would see the effects of the color filter immediately in the field when chimping.

I won't be getting one, cause I already have an M9.  If I were buying now I would get the MM.  I would like an M10-monochrome that is not to different with same simple controls,  but adds live view and focus assist with higher resolution.  I hope when Leica brings out an M10 they concurrently bring out a monochrome version.  If they do, they can count on selling at least one - to me Smiley
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KevinA
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« Reply #28 on: May 11, 2012, 01:04:28 PM »
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No doubt we will see some great colour pictures with the MM via the Maxwell principle.

Kevin
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« Reply #29 on: May 11, 2012, 01:11:22 PM »
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As far as not being able to adjust how the colors are interpreted in Lightroom, well thats a relief isn't it - less time in Lightroom Wink 

 Wink Nice one, Tim.

Somehow (heaven knows how, looking back now) I managed for years to make B/W pictures from film, both in the darkroom and later scanned and processed in PS, without having the marvellous advantages of being able to convert from a colour original. Poor old me, how dreadfully deprived I was - but strangely, those older pictures still look pretty good. In fact, thinking about it, pretty much just as good as these wonderful digital colour conversions to B/W that I'm doing now. But I must be mistaken, musn't I?

John
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Slobodan Blagojevic
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« Reply #30 on: May 11, 2012, 01:54:57 PM »
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The abundance of choice can be as crippling as the lack of. Some people find self-imposed limitations to be rather stimulating and quite liberating, creatively speaking, allowing them to concentrate on the subject, rather then equipment. Some, on the other hand, prefer to fiddle with the abundance of choice, for hours or days, in front of the computer. To each their own. There are no rights or wrongs here, just preferences. And no point in showing one's preferences down someone else's throat.
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Slobodan

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« Reply #31 on: May 11, 2012, 02:12:31 PM »
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Chinese don't do monochrome…


They will Wink
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Fine_Art
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« Reply #32 on: May 11, 2012, 03:30:10 PM »
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Any movement could give annoying discolored edges.

Are you sure that this is preferreable over stitching or multi-shot super resolution?

-h

Of course you are right and of course that is the problem for the engineers! I know right now my camera does very fast multi-shots that it merges to a HDR. The details at 100% are high quality (for a jpg) with no smearing of static subjects. I don't think its that big a problem for them.

Many times I have imagined a shutter with coloured rows to replace the bayer array. R, black, green, black, blue, black. The shutter is a hard sheet that moves down driven by a solenoid. The raw file is a stack of images 'de-interlaced' by the PC. The problem is sales would be limited to people doing static subjects. People not understanding the limitations could make a warranty return nightmare.

It would still be all colour capture at every photo-site for those of us that want that. You can even add C,M,Y for massive colour accuracy.
« Last Edit: May 11, 2012, 03:39:33 PM by Fine_Art » Logged
kers
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« Reply #33 on: May 11, 2012, 07:17:09 PM »
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... did I read the price of the new 50mm f2 APO right?..
Bernard

I am more interested in the 50mm lens then in the Leica camera ( that probably does not resolve half of the quality of the lens - also you can't focus exact)
On the other hand Nikon published a technical guide for the d800. Here they list lenses that should do the job- Not one 50mm lens there!
There most expensive 50mm lens is 350 € !  It is time for something better there...

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Pieter Kers
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« Reply #34 on: May 11, 2012, 11:10:44 PM »
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Still a steal compared to the Leica 50mm f/0.95 Noctilux-M Aspherical Manual Focus Lens. Not much change from $20K for the Noctilux and MM combo.

Cheers,

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mcbroomf
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« Reply #35 on: May 12, 2012, 03:27:31 AM »
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Jonathan Slack took a lot of photos in China with one (pre-prod) .. link thru GetDPI
http://forum.getdpi.com/forum/leica-m-x-r/37187-m-monochrom-its-not-review-folks.html
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Mike Broomfield
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BJL
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« Reply #36 on: May 12, 2012, 08:45:19 AM »
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Still a steal compared to the Leica 50mm f/0.95 Noctilux-M Aspherical Manual Focus Lens. Not much change from $20K for the Noctilux and MM combo.
If this were DPReview, I would say that the Leica M&M NEEDS a f/0.95 lens if you ever want to use it beyond the STUDIO or BRIGHT SUNLIGHT, due to the HORRIBLE noise of that CCD.  Because we know that all other interesting and artistically worthwhille photography requires ISO speeds at least three stops faster than any fine-grained film ever offered.

But fortunately this is not DPReview, so there is no such silly extremist tech. spec. worshipping here.
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John Camp
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« Reply #37 on: May 12, 2012, 09:29:13 AM »
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Michael referred to the poo-pooing of this camera, but not much has really been done in an explicit way yet...so let me be the first. I think this camera is essentially a toy. It is the equivalent of a Rolex or a 911, except that, in general, the Leicas haven't been as reliable as Rolexes or 911s, nor do they function as well, because of poor engineering and obsolescent styles of thought. I went though a Leica phase (an M7, then the M8) and found that overall, a Nikon or Canon is simply a better machine and will permit high-level users to do better work than Leicas will, because they *get out of the way.* A Leica almost never gets out of the way. People use them for the same reasons they drive a 911, which is a thoroughly impractical, silly-ass car, or wear a Rolex, which doesn't keep time very accurately. (I currently have a Panamera, not a 911, and the Panamera is also a thoroughly impractical, silly-ass car, and I won't have another.) The best I can say about these kinds of machines is that you might as well try them, if you can, and you will eventually learn for yourself that if you're really interested in the supposed end products -- good photography, telling time, driving somewhere, these are silly-ass machines and you are better off without them.

 
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« Reply #38 on: May 12, 2012, 09:54:25 AM »
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@John and other haters:  couldn't disagree with you more. For those whose vision is principally in black and white, this is the genius tool we've awaited for years.  Sadly, it's mated to the monumentally ass-sucking electronics of the M8, er,um, I mean M9. If Leica could ever get all of the parts of one of their cameras to be current-tech at the same time, they'd be unstoppable.

What has not prompted howls of outrage, but should, is the price of the new 50mm 'cron. $7K?HuhHuhHuh? Are you fucking kidding me? Seven grand for a 50mm f2? Seriously? That two 800Es and an 85 f1.4....which is just as sharp and can actually be focussed  Grin

So glad I sold me M9 but not the glass.  They're my new pension plan.  Wink

- N.
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Nick Devlin   @onelittlecamera
BJL
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« Reply #39 on: May 12, 2012, 10:18:49 AM »
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For those whose vision is principally in black and white, this is the genius tool we've awaited for years.
Though I am not totally down on the M&M, i have to ask how you weigh the advantages and disadvantages compared to monochrome conversions from a camera with CFA sensor, either with in-camera default conversion or later processing ... such as with the Silver Efex software bundled with the M&M, but mostly useless with it.

Valid reasons do not include:
- avoding post-processing fiddles (if you are happy to accept the fixed color sensitivity response curve of the M&M sensor, you can be equally happy with a default in-camera monochrome conversion, or an automated batch conversion in Lightroom or whatever).

- the "more is less" minimalist myth that there is something inferior about a less expensive camera that offers an option that you can easily choose to completely ignore and never use, compared to a more expensive camera that does not offer that option at all.

I do see the advantages in resolution and one stop better low light handling than the old-technology M9 (but probably no change in DR), but there are alternatives that do even better in those respects while adding the option of color and do it all at a substantially lower price.
« Last Edit: May 12, 2012, 11:38:48 AM by BJL » Logged
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