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Author Topic: 18MP Monochrome Leica M rangefinder announced  (Read 8361 times)
dreed
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« Reply #40 on: May 12, 2012, 10:23:20 AM »
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@John and other haters:  couldn't disagree with you more. For those whose vision is principally in black and white, this is the genius tool we've awaited for years.  Sadly, it's mated to the monumentally ass-sucking electronics of the M8, er,um, I mean M9. If Leica could ever get all of the parts of one of their cameras to be current-tech at the same time, they'd be unstoppable.

Something that I noticed some time ago was that an image that looks good in B&W will also be good in colour. For a while this is actually how I shot - B&W with RAW because the B&W preview told me more about whether the image worked than the limited size of the sensor would otherwise allow. At some point I stopped doing that because although I could change the preview in LR to be colour, everything else just extracts the B&W jpeg for previews, etc.

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What has not prompted howls of outrage, but should, is the price of the new 50mm 'cron. $7K?HuhHuhHuh? Are you fucking kidding me? Seven grand for a 50mm f2? Seriously? That two 800Es and an 85 f1.4....which is just as sharp and can actually be focussed

Have a peek at the MTF graphs for that lens. Almost all of the lines go straight across (at varying points) rather than doing the bumpy slide thing from left to right.
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ndevlin
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« Reply #41 on: May 12, 2012, 10:28:14 AM »
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Have a peek at the MTF graphs for that lens. Almost all of the lines go straight across (at varying points) rather than doing the bumpy slide thing from left to right.

That's not the MTF. It's the EKG of the buyer's bank account.
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Nick Devlin   @onelittlecamera
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« Reply #42 on: May 12, 2012, 11:01:09 AM »
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Michael referred to the poo-pooing of this camera, but not much has really been done in an explicit way yet...so let me be the first. I think this camera is essentially a toy. It is the equivalent of a Rolex or a 911, except that, in general, the Leicas haven't been as reliable as Rolexes or 911s, nor do they function as well, ...

 

One of Michael's sayings is "horses for courses." Yes, a Porsche is "silly ass" for a trip to grocery store. But what about California's Highway 1? Or the blue ridge skyway or whatever it is called?

My Leica kit can do something no Canon or Nikon kit can. In a tiny little bag I have a FF camera and four exceedingly great lenses. The whole thing takes up less space than most of my L lenses. This has become very important to me.

The Leica doesn't pretend to duke it out with a DSLR.  I don't understand when people say "well, a D800..." Does anyone say "well, a Camry is pretty good, but when I use it as a dump truck it really comes up short?"

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JohnBrew
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« Reply #43 on: May 12, 2012, 12:18:15 PM »
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It is the equivalent of a Rolex or a 911, except that, in general, the Leicas haven't been as reliable as Rolexes or 911s

John, I don't think you've owned enough Porches Smiley I've had five Leicas and never had a problem. I wish I could say the same for the multiple Porches!
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Doug Peterson
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« Reply #44 on: May 12, 2012, 12:31:35 PM »
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My own two cents: This is one of the smartest things Leica has ever done.

Remember this is a niche product from a niche company. So it doesn't have to appeal to everyone, or even a large minority of people, for it to be wildly successful it that context. It also doesn't have to sell even a single copy for it to be a successful business move; the PR behind this product (which includes by definition people making fun of it on forums, in newspapers, and on TV) will have a great (free) impact on the awareness and perception of the Leica brand by it's target market. As they say, whenever everyone else zigs, it makes sense to zag. The most important part of business is often not being "better" than all your competition, but being different than the competition.

I think this is one of those things that if you don't get the appeal immediately, in a visceral and emotional way, you probably never will.

Will I be buying one anytime in the near future? Probably not. But if we had one in the shop I'd borrow it as a second camera for my personal shoots. I can't actually think of a camera I'd rather have as a second camera when I'm using an Phase One IQ as my primary camera.

The M's greatest appeal to me has always been it's minimalistic approach, tactile interface (knobs rather than menus) and it's compact size (a 2 lens kit can sit easily in a jacket pocket). Not to mention some great lenses. Well, it doesn't get more minimalistic than B+W only imaging. The majority of the M files I've ever shot have been converted to B+W, so gaining higher ISO and simplifying post-production makes sense (I wouldn't say it would be faster post-processing, since C1 can apply a B+W conversion to a hundred files in a few seconds, but having a lack of choice of how to convert it into B+W, is, for sure, a simplification).

Having less choices is sometimes a good thing. For instance I find I produce consistently better compositions and enjoy shooting more when I'm using a prime lens rather than a zoom*; in theory I should be able to produce consistently good compositions with a zoom lens. But in practice that is not what happens.

Besides if it's a must-have commercial/client frame I'm not shooting it on an M series anyway.

*not talking here about the quality of the lens, just how I interact with it.
« Last Edit: May 12, 2012, 12:46:42 PM by Doug Peterson » Logged

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BJL
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« Reply #45 on: May 12, 2012, 12:46:02 PM »
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One other comparison not discussed much, but surely of interest to many Leica M user: a Leica M7.

That offers a choice of "sensors" with different characteristics, including a number with higher resolution: even TMAX P3200 has MTF above 50% out to beyond the Nyquist limit of this sensor, and of course TMAX 400 and 100 go even further.

P. S. The most natural comparisons are probably HP5 (my old favorite) or TMAX 400.
« Last Edit: May 12, 2012, 12:50:41 PM by BJL » Logged
JeanMichel
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« Reply #46 on: May 12, 2012, 12:47:47 PM »
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Thank you, Michael, for your Monocrom review.
I am not sure if I would jump immediately to purchase one as a second digital M body, the 'not sure' is strictly financial. Prior to going digital my 35 mm work was almost exclusively black and white, I used a Hasselblad for colour work. It so happens that all my 60's and 70's vintage Leica lenses allow me to make larger, equal, OK, better prints in b&w or colour than I made in the darkroom. I kept my filters so would be ready for a Monocrom!  Even the base ISO is familiar, my film of choice was HP4, HP5 and later T-Max 400 usually rated at 320. Would I get better prints from a Monocrom than from my M9 or 5D2? I do not know. But I speculate that if I had Monocrom, it would be the M9 that would be the second body.
Jean-Michel

 
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Rob C
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« Reply #47 on: May 12, 2012, 02:11:06 PM »
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@John and other haters:  couldn't disagree with you more. For those whose vision is principally in black and white, this is the genius tool we've awaited for years.  Sadly, it's mated to the monumentally ass-sucking electronics of the M8, er,um, I mean M9. If Leica could ever get all of the parts of one of their cameras to be current-tech at the same time, they'd be unstoppable.

What has not prompted howls of outrage, but should, is the price of the new 50mm 'cron. $7K?HuhHuhHuh? Are you fucking kidding me? Seven grand for a 50mm f2? Seriously? That two 800Es and an 85 f1.4....which is just as sharp and can actually be focussed  Grin

So glad I sold me M9 but not the glass.  They're my new pension plan.  Wink
- N.




Beware! Stock was mine...


Rob C
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250swb
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« Reply #48 on: May 12, 2012, 04:36:15 PM »
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I wouldn't purchase one to replace my M9. The main thing that comes to mind is Michael's comment that 18mp B&W looks like 36mp colour (and we know what that is compared with). But pretty soon the M10 will be out (well even if not for another year it is coming), and if that is 36mp, it kind of makes the MM instantly a thing of curiosity doesn't it. With an M10 you will have a camera back to being able to do B&W and colour. And of course the current M9 can make B&W images eminently well as it is. As for the ISO samples, well I am underwhelmed, the new E-M5 looks cleaner at 1500 ISO and definitely cleaner higher up the range.

Steve
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BJL
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« Reply #49 on: May 12, 2012, 05:20:33 PM »
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The main thing that comes to mind is Michael's comment that 18mp B&W looks like 36mp colour (and we know what that is compared with). But pretty soon the M10 will be out (well even if not for another year it is coming), and if that is 36mp, it kind of makes the MM instantly a thing of curiosity doesn't it.
Actually, Michael said 26-32MP. As to the imagined M10: while an M10 with a good 36MP sensor would make the MM rather redundant, I do not know why you are so sure that one is coming soon, or that it is likely to come with a 36MP sensor. If Leica is indeed stuck with CCD sensors from its current supplier TrueSense (formerly Kodak's sensor division), the smallest pixel size in the current "TrueSense" designs is 6 microns, giving only 24MP.

In fact, a worrying sign is that the MM did not even move to that newer 6 micron pixel design, which has improvements in other characteristics over the older Kodak pixel design in the M9 and MM and is used in the newer sensor for the S2. This suggests that Leica cannot justify a new 36x24mm sensor updated to current Kodak technology, due to its reliance on a custom sensor used only in the M cameras. Leica certainly adds to the cost of is products by not sharing its Kodak sensors, the way that MF back makers do.
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SpiritShooter
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« Reply #50 on: May 13, 2012, 10:37:32 AM »
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You said:

As to the imagined M10: while an M10 with a good 36MP sensor would make the MM rather redundant, I do not know why you are so sure that one is coming soon, or that it is likely to come with a 36MP sensor. If Leica is indeed stuck with CCD sensors from its current supplier TrueSense (formerly Kodak's sensor division), the smallest pixel size in the current "TrueSense" designs is 6 microns, giving only 24MP.

_________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
It appears that from interviews with Leica Execs this past week, other sites are reporting that a new Leica M10 will be announced in Cologne September 17th. It is reported that there is a high probability that the M10 will have a CMOS Sensor, Video and that Leica has solved the data rate, battery & heat issues.

I guess time will tell.
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BJL
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« Reply #51 on: May 13, 2012, 10:45:23 AM »
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It appears that from interviews with Leica Execs this past week, other sites are reporting that ... there is a high probability that the M10 will have a CMOS Sensor ...
That would be great news, especially the CMOS bit, which would suggest that Leica's new management is embracing a bit more of the 21st century. Do you have links for interviews or public statements by Leica execs, or just "word of mouth" on rumor sites? (Note: "rumor" means "noise", so as digital photographers, we should be wary of it!)

P.S. It is probably good to put aside the second and third hand readings and mis-readings of various rumor sites and just look at the primary reporting, which seems to be on the BJP site at
http://www.bjp-online.com/british-journal-of-photography/news/2174163/leica-hints-video-features-upcoming-m10

Some quotes:
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When asked if such a new camera could include high-definition video recording features, Kaufmann said that "theoretically, yes," adding that there are some issues with introducing video in a camera - "the data rate, the heat, and the battery lifecycle, but I think we solved that. No comment until we show it on existing and new models."
He added: "HD video is interesting, and a lot of photographers would love to have it [in an M body]."
Which is promising, if non-committal, but then the cold shower:
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But Leica's head of supervisory board confirmed that the brand would continue to work with Truesense Imaging, the equity firm that took over Kodak's sensor operations, to use their sensors in future models of the M series.
And Truesense Imaging has no CMOS sensor offerings at all, only full frame and interline types of CCD: see the product listings, which are still at Kodak's website:
http://www.kodak.com/ek/US/en/Image_Sensor_Solutions/Products/Products.htm

Further, of those sensors, only the interline CCDs are capable of video output or real Live View, and those have somewhat inferior still image quality to Kodak's full frame type CCDs. It seems that CMOS sensors and video would probably only come in another product line; perhaps a new "EVIL" system.

P.P.S. Here is the quote that seems to the basis for the contradictory speculation that an M10 is coming soon with a CMOS sensor and video capability:
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On M rangefinder with video/CMOS sensor: "Offering additional functions such as video and live view would extend the usability of the M camera significantly. CMOS is a prerequisite for it, therefore it will be the technology of the future".
from LeicaRumors.com: http://leicarumors.com/2011/10/25/interesting-interview-with-stefan-daniel.aspx/#ixzz1ulaQPUkO

But that vague talk of CMOS being "the technology of the future" and its being necessary for video is far short of the claim that the M series is getting either a CMOS sensor or video in the next "M10" model, coming this year.
« Last Edit: May 13, 2012, 11:55:50 AM by BJL » Logged
torger
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« Reply #52 on: May 16, 2012, 06:14:37 AM »
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Wouldn't it be harmful for the Leica brand to put in a large iPhone-like LCD and CMOS with video capability? That's not how you shoot with a Leica! It should be Cartier-Bresson style :-)

It would be like putting in a japanese sports engine into a harley davidson motorcycle.
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TMARK
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« Reply #53 on: May 16, 2012, 10:08:43 AM »
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It looks great, but for a single use camera is worth about $3000, to me any way.  I'm done with Leica.  The last Leica I thought was worth anything was the M6.  I had two M9's and an M8.  I bought an X100, just to try out, and realized that it is just better in many ways than the digital Leicas.  For my use, any way. Why, you may ask?  The IQ is as good for smaller print sizes, which is where my street photography ends up, it is smaller, lighter, and disposable.  It has fantastic JPEGS, usable for magazine repro, which is where I used the Leicas.  It has clean 3200.  It has a remarkable little fill flash for editorial portraits outside.  It has amazing color and a usable DR way better than the M8, maybe better than the M9.  And the kicker?  The biggest downfall of the Leicas, the inacurate framing, is resolved by the EVF.  So what does the MM have over the X100 and a copy of Silver EFX?  File size?  Raw sharpness for BIG prints?  Not worth the penalties, for my work. 

That being said, I appreciate the effort, and would get one it they were $2000.  Which isn't going to happen.  I appreciate that some people may really dig it and the M9 in general.  I know I do, but not for the price of crappy JPEGS, innacurate framing, odd bugs, crappy support, etc.  Oh yeah, and the body alone costs as much as a Ducati Monster or a Triumph Bonneville.  Or a Smart Car.  Or a trip to Japan.  Or an entire D800 kit.  Or an entire Canon kit.  Or half of a Red. Etc.  Etc.  Etc.

Fuji should one up them with an X whatever Monochrom, but they know that would be silly to make a camera that couldn't really be sold in the home market.  But it would be a nice poke in the eye for Leia, which has garnered ill will on my part by constantly denying faults and refusing to address issues with my (now sold, for a profit!) digital Leicas.
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Petrus
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« Reply #54 on: May 16, 2012, 10:54:41 AM »
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Fuji should one up them with an X whatever Monochrom.

Well, you can switch X-Pro1 to B&W. It is not the same as a monochrome sensor, but darn good enough. It even has red, yellow and green filters "built in"... And sepia toning.
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achrisproduction
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« Reply #55 on: May 18, 2012, 06:59:38 PM »
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That would be a color version. The Chinese don't do monochrome, because monochrome is associated with death. And although they are total suckers for top-end branding, like Hermes, if something is remotely associated with death, the chinese try to avoid it like the plague.

Russians on the other hand...
Please respect and becareful what you said.  dont hate because Chinese people are wealthy.  I am from Hong Kong and I shoot a lot of B&W. 
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Rob C
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« Reply #56 on: May 20, 2012, 08:27:41 AM »
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Please respect and becareful what you said.  dont hate because Chinese people are wealthy.  I am from Hong Kong and I shoot a lot of B&W.  



We call them sweeping statements, often offered in jest, and nobody really pays them much attention. I suggest you do likewise.

;-)

Best wishes,

Rob C
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geesbert
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« Reply #57 on: May 22, 2012, 07:15:58 AM »
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porch:



Porsche:

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Rob C
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« Reply #58 on: May 22, 2012, 08:09:35 AM »
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What a  beautiful blue!

Rob C
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jeremypayne
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« Reply #59 on: May 22, 2012, 08:42:14 AM »
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We call them sweeping statements, often offered in jest, and nobody really pays them much attention. I suggest you do likewise.

;-)

Best wishes,

Rob C

Actually, that's one of the things that today is definitively better than the world for which you so often pine.

Today, what you said is considered rude and thoughtless ... and people most definitely do pay attention to such utterances.

I suggest you mind your manners.
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