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Author Topic: D800 walk around lens?  (Read 26443 times)
JohnBrew
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« Reply #40 on: May 16, 2012, 06:38:42 AM »
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Those findings do provide some compelling reasons to seriously consider which lens to buy. Ellis, do you have any images that demonstrate some bokeh comparisons between the two lenses?
Greg, there are good bokeh comparisons on Photozone for these two lenses. One man I know of, bought both, and after comparison sent the 1.8G back. My personal opinion is if you want a lens for walking around the 1.8G would be better because of the size and weight. For tripod work and critical sharpness I would go with the 1.4G (and I did  Smiley)
« Last Edit: May 16, 2012, 02:12:10 PM by JohnBrew » Logged

dturina
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« Reply #41 on: May 16, 2012, 08:48:16 AM »
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Yes good idea but I have a K5 and a 17-70 f4, what I'm looking for is the equivalent to the 24-105 I had on my 5DII and used a lot. I guess that's the Nikkor 24-120 f4 for the D800
Marc

Why not make it simple and just take a prime? 24mm, if you like it wide, maybe a 50mm in the pocket. Both would be lighter than a proper zoom.
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Danijel
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« Reply #42 on: May 16, 2012, 08:49:36 AM »
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Check out Moose Peterson, he seems to be in love with this lens.

Well I watched a video on the Moose Peterson web site that seemed to be more of a commercial than a review.  His only negative was the retaining detent for the lens hood.  I'm still dubious.
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jgbowerman
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« Reply #43 on: May 16, 2012, 11:30:16 AM »
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Greg, there are good bokeh comparisons on Photozone for these two lenses. One man I know of, bought both, and after comparison sent the 1.8G back. My personal opinion is if you want a lens for walking around the 1.8G would be better because of the weight. For tripod work and critical sharpness I would go with the 1.4G (and I did  Smiley)

Photozone did provide excellent reviews on both lenses, and the 1.8 compared surprisingly well considering the price difference. I viewed a variety image samples taken at large apertures to get a better feel for bokeh comparisons, and I was equally impressed! I'll quote a line from Photozone's conclusion on the 85/1.8G.

Quote
The biggest surprise is probably the bokeh quality, which is not right up there on the benchmark level set by 85mm f/1.4 lenses, but quite close.
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jgbowerman
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« Reply #44 on: May 16, 2012, 11:44:34 AM »
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Well I watched a video on the Moose Peterson web site that seemed to be more of a commercial than a review.  His only negative was the retaining detent for the lens hood.  I'm still dubious.

I remain dubious as well. On the likes of a D800/800E, the Nikkor 24-120 f/4G VR arguably shortchanges the image sensor. I'm going to stay with primes on the 800E and enjoy zooms on the NEX7. For that matter, I'll probably not do much walking around with the D800E, but eventually purchase a Nikkor 85MM as I desire having that focal length available. I'm still torn between the Nikkor 85 f/1.4G and f/1.8G, but I'm leaning towards the f/1.8. Decisions decisions...

Photozone's review:

http://www.photozone.de/nikon_ff/574-nikkorafs24120f4vrff
« Last Edit: May 16, 2012, 01:35:04 PM by jgbowerman » Logged

Ellis Vener
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« Reply #45 on: May 17, 2012, 09:24:47 AM »
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When looking to purchase anything that is not immediately disposable it is good to look at reviews from a number of sources (but I can't remember when I last paid any attention to Moose's "reviews"). Different organizations have different testing procedures and are not testing the same lens. Considering different points of view therefore allows you to come to form your own informed general opinion.

In that spirit here is another review of the Nikon 24-120mm f/4G AF-S lens: http://www.slrgear.com/reviews/showproduct.php/product/1358/cat/13

As with all http://www.slrgear.com reviews  when you click on the results graph, a new window opens up and you can see how well the individual lens that was tested by them performs from the center to the corners at various apertures and focal lengths (http://www.slrgear.com/reviews/zproducts/nikon24-120f4g/ff/tloader.htm ) the flatter response and the lower to the floor of the graph space the better the lens performs. so you are not just looking at one metric.  As with most zooms at a middle range aperture and focal length the better behaved this lens is.

I am still doggedly of the opinion that zoom lens range should be no greater than 3x (i.e, 24-72mm rather than the 5x range of the 24-120mm of this Nikkor or the 4.375x range of the similar Canon 24-105mm f/4L) as this limits the nyumber of compromises that are made to shoehorn in those extra mm's. But on the other hand I also agree with my friend Jay Maisel's  good point when he argues for being willing to give a little bit of quality as opposed to only making hypothetical photos because that optimum quality single focal lens you've got mounted is the wrong one for the photo you want to make.
« Last Edit: May 17, 2012, 09:39:40 AM by Ellis Vener » Logged

Ellis Vener
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ndevlin
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« Reply #46 on: May 17, 2012, 09:36:42 AM »
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Nope if the 800E ends up a 18 mpx walk around camera in my hand and with my Leica R's on a tripod a 36 mpx mini MFDB I'll be happy!
I think from reading reviews the 24-120 suffers from distortion and CA more than lack of resolution, I'm hoping DxO should correct most of that?

That's not what I saw. I saw pure lack of sharpness in the corners on all sides. I don't give a rat's ass about CA or 'distortion', especially the later in a  'walk-around-lens' will never be seen. 

It's way better than the abysmal previous 24-120, but it's not a stellar optic.  It's just really convenient.

- N.
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« Reply #47 on: May 17, 2012, 09:41:18 AM »
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I think from reading reviews the 24-120 suffers from distortion and CA more than lack of resolution, I'm hoping DxO should correct most of that?

Lightroom 4.1rc2 does a bang up job of correcting those kinds of distortions.
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Ellis Vener
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Petrus
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« Reply #48 on: May 17, 2012, 10:05:30 AM »
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A fast 28mm and semi-fast 85 or 100mm would make a great pair of primes for walking around. I used to recommend zooms before the dust removal systems were included in the DSLR bodies. Dust removal works so well now that I am not afraid to change lenses anymore. When on a lengthy assignment I always take a 28/1.8 for the off-duty evenings, as I can not leave the hotel without a camera but do not want to carry a 24-75 2.8.
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stever
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« Reply #49 on: May 17, 2012, 08:07:20 PM »
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from the various posts, different people do a lot of different kinds of walking around.  my foreign travel walking around experience is that frequently don't know what i'm going to find and that lot's of good stuff is never going to be there long enough to change lenses (i suspect this is the reason that Michael has posted so many interesting shots from the NEX 7 using a zoom of limited performance).

walking around has tradeoffs and at some point the search for IQ can change walking around into a photo shoot with much more limited and defined goals (and possibilities)

i use a 5D2 and 24-105 and no, i'm not happy with the performance wide open -- but it's given me a huge number of images that would not have been possible with a prime

i am considering another alternative based on lensrentals.com's test of the new Tamron 24-70.
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jgbowerman
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« Reply #50 on: May 18, 2012, 08:16:38 AM »
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from the various posts, different people do a lot of different kinds of walking around.  my foreign travel walking around experience is that frequently don't know what i'm going to find and that lot's of good stuff is never going to be there long enough to change lenses (i suspect this is the reason that Michael has posted so many interesting shots from the NEX 7 using a zoom of limited performance).

walking around has tradeoffs and at some point the search for IQ can change walking around into a photo shoot with much more limited and defined goals (and possibilities)

i use a 5D2 and 24-105 and no, i'm not happy with the performance wide open -- but it's given me a huge number of images that would not have been possible with a prime

i am considering another alternative based on lensrentals.com's test of the new Tamron 24-70.

No question about it, a zoom is far more conducive to spontaneity, and that is why the NEX-7 with its 18-200 is perhaps today's best walk-around system. The size of the camera and the size of the lens are both part of the walk-around equation. I've walked around with a a D700 attached to a 70-200 zoom and always felt like I was bringing unwanted attention! Most of us like being inconspicuous when walking around with a camera.

What one is comfortable walking around with is a three-part question: head game, size/weight, and quality. As compact as the D800 is, one could argue that point-and-shoot cameras with their crappy 10X zooms make for a better walk-around system. I like to tell a story when I'm walking around... the less encumbering the system, the more conducive. But I also have an anal side that gets in the way of more practical equipment. We first have to answer why we are walking around... "story telling?" or "capturing professional quality files?" It would be nice to have both options in one system. The D800/800E is an outstanding camera, but I'd argue it is not a good walk around camera, it really comes down to the personality of the user.

When it comes down to the shutter bug in all of us, a separate walk around system is perhaps a better approach than trying to come up with a better walk around lens.
« Last Edit: May 18, 2012, 08:20:41 AM by jgbowerman » Logged

Ellis Vener
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« Reply #51 on: May 18, 2012, 08:54:49 AM »
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"I've walked around with a a D700 attached to a 70-200 zoom and always felt like I was bringing unwanted attention!"

and I've been on an all day walk-a-round with a photographer  using a D3X and a 70-200mm f/2.8 who drew almost no attention to himself and got fantastic candid shots.

I think this is a state of mind for the photographer as much as anything else. The more comfortable you are with what you are doing, the more fluid you are with your camera, the more invisible one can be.
« Last Edit: May 18, 2012, 09:07:41 AM by Ellis Vener » Logged

Ellis Vener
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jgbowerman
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« Reply #52 on: May 18, 2012, 09:12:10 AM »
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"I've walked around with a a D700 attached to a 70-200 zoom and always felt like I was bringing unwanted attention!"

and I've been on an all day walk-a-round with a photographer  using a D3X and a 70-200mm f/2.8 draw almost no attention to himself and get fantastic candid shots.

 I think this is a state of mind for the photographer as much as anything else. The more comfortable you are with what you are doing, the more fluid you are with your camera, the more invisible one can be.

I agree. And I admit, I'm too self conscious, but that is me. I suppose I could pay a shrink instead of paying Sony?
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Ray
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« Reply #53 on: May 18, 2012, 08:13:26 PM »
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If anyone is concerned about drawing attention to himself, then better not walk around with two cameras and lenses around your shoulders as I often do. I can't remember the number of times I've been asked by complete strangers why I carry two cameras.

The reason of course is obvious. I get the benefits of a zoom lens of a quality and range that simply cannot be bought at any price. The Nikkor 14-24/2.8 attached to my D700, plus the 24-120/F4 attached to my D7000, results effectively in my having a good quality zoom lens with a range from 14-180mm. That's very useful.

Now it's true that a good prime used in ideal conditions will usually produce sharper results than any zoom, and there's no doubt that a crisp, sharp image with every strand of hair clearly delineated is a joy to behold.

However, if one is walking around, presumably trying to capture the moment, the full sharpness benefits of a prime lens will often not be achieved, unless one excludes all those shots that one knows will likely need cropping because one didn't have the time or opportunity to get oneself into a position and distance from the subject for the best composition.

Now, I admit that I almost always use my 24-120/F4 with the DX D7000 which crops the edges where resolution is sometimes not too good. Edge and corner resolution could be a problem when this lens is used with the D800.

However, let's get things into perspective. The Photozone tests are quite revealing. The 24-120/F4 is sharpest between focal lengths of 24mm to 50mm. Beyond 50mm resolution begins to decline, both in the centre and at the edges.

If one compares the Photozone results for this zoom at 24mm, with the Nikkor AF-S 24/1.4 prime, both lenses tested on the D3X body, one finds the 24mm prime, at its sharpest aperture of F4, is indeed sharper in the centre than the zoom at 24mm and F4. The results are 3784 Line-Widths-per-Picture-Height (or line pairs per picture height) for the zoom, and 3990 for the prime.

The prime is delivering 206 more LW/PH in the centre of the image (extrapolated to the full frame). That's 5.5% more resolution. Wow! I'm so excited.

Let's engage in a bit of basic maths. If I zoom from 24mm to 48mm, I've essentially cut the image in half along both dimensions, resulting in a composition of 1/4th of the area.

If we compare the central portion from both images, where they are both sharpest, the 24mm prime (at its sharpest aperture of F4) will have 5.5% more resolution than the zoom.

Supposing I crop that central portion of the image with the zoom at the time I take the shot, instead of later cropping it in postprocessing. In other words, instead of using 24mm with the zoom, I use a 5.5% greater focal length, which would be 25.132mm. Call it 26mm if you like. Have we not cancelled out that resolution advantage of the 24mm prime?

Maybe we haven't. Maybe there are other considerations and factors that have escaped me. Please feel free to comment.

Of course, I understand there may be other desirable features of any particular prime compared with a zoom, such as a nicer bokeh and a wider maximum aperture for shallow DoF. However, the advantages of VR in a walk-about lens, which many Nikkor primes lack, may often outweigh the advantages of a wider aperture, unless achieving a very shallow DoF is the objective.

I should have added also, that in order to achieve that extra crispness that a prime lens may make possible, one needs a fast shutter speed at a reasonably low ISO. Increasing ISO tends to reduce resolution.

Bernard claims he is able to get sharp results with a prime lens without VR at a shutter speed of 1/2FL. If such shutter speed is only attainable at ISO 6400, then one might have to compare the results at a shutter speed of 4/FL using a lesser quality lens with VR at a lower ISO. In other words, say, 1/400th with a 200mm prime at ISO 6400, as opposed to 1/50th with a VR zoom at 200mm and ISO 800. Which would be better?  Grin
« Last Edit: May 18, 2012, 08:56:45 PM by Ray » Logged
stever
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« Reply #54 on: May 19, 2012, 10:21:35 AM »
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comfort - my "walking around" has become much more relaxed and comfortable with a Blackrapid strap (or more often my less bulky knockoff using Blackrapid hardware with an Upstrap bag strap).  whether it's less conspicuous or not (i think it is), i feel less awkward and the camera is consistently quicker to get to the eye - and back to carry - and comfortable all day long even with bigger glass.  also way better when using two cameras
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bdosserman
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« Reply #55 on: May 21, 2012, 08:52:35 PM »
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I recently placed an order for a D800e, and based on MR's recommendation (and those of others on this forum), I intend to get the 24-120mm to go with it. It will be my personal version of a walk-around lens, which is what I think of as a "friends and family" lens. That is, when I'm on a trip somewhere photogenic with friends and/or family, and I'd like the people in question to remain friends and/or family, I will use this lens to avoid driving them crazy. When practical, I'll also have my GH2 with 100-300mm lens to use for wildlife.

In the long term, I also plan to get some sharp primes for use when I'm on my own and can take my time. I'll probably get the 150mm Sigma macro lens right away. Haven't yet decided whether to get standard primes, or tilt/shift. I'm tempted to wait to see if Nikon is planning on releasing updated versions of their tilt/shifts, as I'd really prefer if the tilt and shift axes could be changed independently (at least, I think I would -- I've never used such a lens).

Brian
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marcmccalmont
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« Reply #56 on: May 21, 2012, 10:05:55 PM »
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I recently placed an order for a D800e, and based on MR's recommendation (and those of others on this forum), I intend to get the 24-120mm to go with it. It will be my personal version of a walk-around lens, which is what I think of as a "friends and family" lens. That is, when I'm on a trip somewhere photogenic with friends and/or family, and I'd like the people in question to remain friends and/or family, I will use this lens to avoid driving them crazy. When practical, I'll also have my GH2 with 100-300mm lens to use for wildlife.

In the long term, I also plan to get some sharp primes for use when I'm on my own and can take my time. I'll probably get the 150mm Sigma macro lens right away. Haven't yet decided whether to get standard primes, or tilt/shift. I'm tempted to wait to see if Nikon is planning on releasing updated versions of their tilt/shifts, as I'd really prefer if the tilt and shift axes could be changed independently (at least, I think I would -- I've never used such a lens).

Brian
I have a few tilt swing lenses for my WRS (which has rear movements) and I rarely use the tilt swing in landscape work so I'd say you are safe with a single axis movement for 99.9% of the time or for the price 3 or 4 good primes would be fine for 99.6% of the time!
Marc
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Marc McCalmont
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« Reply #57 on: May 21, 2012, 11:44:54 PM »
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In the long term, I also plan to get some sharp primes for use when I'm on my own and can take my time. I'll probably get the 150mm Sigma macro lens right away. Haven't yet decided whether to get standard primes, or tilt/shift. I'm tempted to wait to see if Nikon is planning on releasing updated versions of their tilt/shifts, as I'd really prefer if the tilt and shift axes could be changed independently (at least, I think I would -- I've never used such a lens).

Brian

You would be happy with lens quality in all current T/S lenses. I'd be surprised if Nikon updates their current lineup, but you never can be too certain. All three focal lengths are of quality glass. They also fall short in terms of mechanical precision. Like Marc, I have yet to find much use in Tilting with landscape work, but shifting is far easier and more effective then reducing tripod height.
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David Watson
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« Reply #58 on: May 22, 2012, 12:32:35 AM »
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I recently placed an order for a D800e, and based on MR's recommendation (and those of others on this forum), I intend to get the 24-120mm to go with it. It will be my personal version of a walk-around lens, which is what I think of as a "friends and family" lens. That is, when I'm on a trip somewhere photogenic with friends and/or family, and I'd like the people in question to remain friends and/or family, I will use this lens to avoid driving them crazy. When practical, I'll also have my GH2 with 100-300mm lens to use for wildlife.

In the long term, I also plan to get some sharp primes for use when I'm on my own and can take my time. I'll probably get the 150mm Sigma macro lens right away. Haven't yet decided whether to get standard primes, or tilt/shift. I'm tempted to wait to see if Nikon is planning on releasing updated versions of their tilt/shifts, as I'd really prefer if the tilt and shift axes could be changed independently (at least, I think I would -- I've never used such a lens).

Brian

The new Tamron 24-70 with image stabilisation is by all accounts as good as the Nikon 24-70 (with the added benefit of the IS) and should be way better than the 24-120.
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« Reply #59 on: May 22, 2012, 08:30:42 AM »
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well I received the 24-120 today kind of rainy in Tokyo so just a few test shots to see how it holds up to a Leica 28-90R
I think it will be just fine as a walk around lens both shot at f5.6, deconvolution sharpening .7, manual focus w/liveview
it seems the D800E out resolves the 24-120 but the fine detail of the Leica 28-90 is preserved, I focused on the seam in the textured wallpaper
Marc
« Last Edit: May 22, 2012, 08:34:03 AM by marcmccalmont » Logged

Marc McCalmont
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