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Author Topic: Austerity?  (Read 5119 times)
Rob C
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« Reply #20 on: June 13, 2012, 02:20:06 AM »
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I think a trap which is easy to fall into (myself included) is to have one’s own memory or particular agenda obscuring the actual pixels or dots on paper.

Julie




That, Julie, can also happen with photographs of models as, at a casting, voice (very important!), personality and sex appeal can blind one both before and after the event. I used to drag my wife along to those things if only to insulate me from the danger of not seeing tiny flaws that, on the day, would turn out to be major ones and would screw the job. And it didn't stop at the pre-shoot stage: even the mood at the moment of shooting could colour the value (as percieved by myself) of the resulting transparencies.

There is so much going on in the mind with creative work that perhaps, in the end, an editor whom you personally respect might be an essential!

Rob C
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kencameron
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« Reply #21 on: June 13, 2012, 02:44:58 AM »
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Returning to the actual image, what I like about it is the feeling of the crowd flowing down hill, suggesting the irresistible momentum of public anger (or something like that). A higher viewpoint would have enhanced this, although I guess standing on top of any Rolls Royce parked in the neighbourhood might not have gone down well with the constabulary.
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kencameron
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« Reply #22 on: June 13, 2012, 02:55:53 AM »
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On the political question, personally in general I do have sympathy for those against such severe austerity cuts, but there are a lot of vested interests involved.
For example a few months ago we were at a drinks party where several teachers were also guests.  They were rather smugly talking about how the new pension deals would not really affect them because they were too near retirement.  These were guys around 53 who are only a few years older than I am.  They would be able to retire at around 58 on full pensions and were really looking forward to it and could not see how a teacher was possibly expected to work past 60 because it is so stressful.  I have only minimal personal pension plans and these days as a photographer I find it hard to pay the essential bills let alone save for retirement.  My guess is that I will continue to work until well past 70 and the thought of my taxes going to fund the retirement of people in their 50's does rankle a bit.  A lot of the protests are about public sector workers who are well paid being able to retire at 60 on good pensions, live into their 90's, and to hell with the idea that we cannot afford to fund that kind of luxury.  I do also appreciate that a lot of public sector workers are not highly paid and do mundane, unrewarding work.
As a retired public sector worker who retired on a good pension well before 60, I would have to say that I understand and sympathise with your attitude. I don't exactly apologise for my good fortune, because it was always the deal I signed up for, and it in Australia at the moment I am able to think of it as being paid for by Chinese mining royalties rather than the taxes of hard working photographers (I know, the distinction is economically dubious). I do however think that around the world Governments have agreed to some pension schemes for public sector workers that may not be economically sustainable in the long term. I understand that California is a case in point.
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stamper
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« Reply #23 on: June 13, 2012, 03:11:55 AM »
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Oh stamper, the www says all anyone needs to know.

Don't you think that there's something just a teensy weensy bit distasteful about using kids as political props? Yeah, right, they know what they are doing; no, not the kids.

Unquote

Feel free to shoot the message but I am only the messenger. However I thought this would provoke a response.  I will state one thing. Anyone living in the USA  - and backing it - criticising what is happening in the rest of the world - considering that the banking crisis that started there - has more than a brass neck and is laughable? I won't say any more because that will possibly close the thread which wouldn't be right? Sad
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kikashi
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« Reply #24 on: June 13, 2012, 03:39:15 AM »
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I love this shot as it demonstrates the rich and wealthy at home in their luxery apartments to the left and right
Thanks guys. The area it was taken in is in the City of London, heart of the countries banking industry which i guess is why it was picked.

Explain, perhaps, how the shot demonstrates anyone at home in "luxery" (sic) apartments when it's taken in an area where nobody lives. The original post is a pseudo-political rant, wholly unconnected with the photograph.

Regarding your point about the children of the rich supporting the protests - as Rob says it is well known that educated youngsters can tend to have a socialist leaning.  That is until self-interest kicks in and they reap the reward of their education.
Or until they grow up, join the real world and learn that people have to fend for themselves and can't expect to be handed a living on a plate, you mean?

Jeremy
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Jim Pascoe
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« Reply #25 on: June 13, 2012, 03:43:17 AM »
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Or until they grow up, join the real world and learn that people have to fend for themselves and can't expect to be handed a living on a plate, you mean?


I sort of think that was what I was suggesting really, which the rest of my post explains.
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Mcthecat
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« Reply #26 on: June 13, 2012, 04:12:52 AM »
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Thanks again all. It was indeed a very strange day. We travelled down from northern England and expected a couple of hundred thousand people but over half a million turned up and that was only the first one, the rest is yet to come. It did feel like an unstoppable force but the unmovable object the govt funnily enough comprising mainly of bankers, wont move. More exciting times ahead although ill be better prepared next time with the camera. I do have a lot of better stuff but ill keep that stuff. The 1DS4 and 70-200 were the only combination used but a wide angle will be next time.

The number of people saving in private company pension schemes has halved since 1991 as companies close them down. The average public sector pension is £5600 a year. The private sector £5860. The issue is final salery schemes which continue in many parts of the public sector but have gone in the private. Why companies have done this ill leave that one for you to work out, but no, public sector workers dont have great pensions but like private sector some do ok. The problem will be later in years as the pensions are cut, old poorly paid people across all sectors will be destitute. Its a problem no govt is facing up to, paying for the old. Im not an economics expert.

The political argument if you want it is two fold. A Conservative one, its up to you, get a better job, save more for later life stop relying on the state or socialist, we are all in this together and those with the most must help those with the least.  A massive variation in wealth, whats mine is mine small govt, etc or a smaller gap in wealth and everyones better off but some will take advantage of it.  Me? I just want my money back from those who gambled it.


Mick
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stamper
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« Reply #27 on: June 13, 2012, 04:51:13 AM »
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Explain, perhaps, how the shot demonstrates anyone at home in "luxery" (sic) apartments when it's taken in an area where nobody lives. The original post is a pseudo-political rant, wholly unconnected with the photograph.

Unquote

It is meant to be symbolic of the wealth that exists among a certain clique. The buildings, if they are occupied, represent that luxery - I assume you meant luxury - and I see it as that. How do you know that nobody lives there? You either get it or you don't depending on your political outlook. Have you ever attended/been on a protest? Everybody from ministers,priests  to anarchists are represented. I guess if somebody is unaffected financially then their outlook is ...I am alright Jack?
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stamper
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« Reply #28 on: June 13, 2012, 04:57:08 AM »
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Regarding your point about the children of the rich supporting the protests - as Rob says it is well known that educated youngsters can tend to have a socialist leaning.  That is until self-interest kicks in and they reap the reward of their education.

Unquote

A lot of people with good educations are among the worst casualties of the crisis. It sometimes works against you? Bar owners reluctant to employ people with degrees from universities. In the UK Tony Blair wanted 50% of the population to have a degree despite there being not enough high paid, or anything like it, jobs to justify the expense of running university courses.
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Jim Pascoe
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« Reply #29 on: June 13, 2012, 05:17:52 AM »
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Regarding your point about the children of the rich supporting the protests - as Rob says it is well known that educated youngsters can tend to have a socialist leaning.  That is until self-interest kicks in and they reap the reward of their education.

Unquote

A lot of people with good educations are among the worst casualties of the crisis. It sometimes works against you? Bar owners reluctant to employ people with degrees from universities. In the UK Tony Blair wanted 50% of the population to have a degree despite there being not enough high paid, or anything like it, jobs to justify the expense of running university courses.

I only mentioned that because of the first reference to the OP's point about his surprise that children from rich families supported the protests.  You are indeed right about the difficulty for graduates - I have two daughters now 23 and 25 who took some time to get good jobs.  However they both did quite good degrees and have benefited from that.  The point still remains that children from wealthy families more often get good education, good degrees, and usually end up with very good well paid jobs.  And bar owners are not worried about employing youngsters with degrees - look at all the very well educated Eastern European's working in this country.  They bar owners just want someone who is hard-working and reliable.

Jim
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jeremypayne
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« Reply #30 on: June 13, 2012, 06:39:47 AM »
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Feel free to shoot the message but I am only the messenger. However I thought this would provoke a response.  I will state one thing. Anyone living in the USA  - and backing it - criticising what is happening in the rest of the world - considering that the banking crisis that started there - has more than a brass neck and is laughable? I won't say any more because that will possibly close the thread which wouldn't be right? Sad


Any who thinks Europe's issues have anything to do with anything other than Europe's issues needs to wake up.
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Jim Pascoe
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« Reply #31 on: June 13, 2012, 07:18:25 AM »
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Perhaps we should steer this thread away from politics and just stick to the message or otherwise of the original photograph - which has probably been fully explored by now!

Jim
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Rob C
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« Reply #32 on: June 13, 2012, 10:32:50 AM »
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Returning to the actual image, what I like about it is the feeling of the crowd flowing down hill, suggesting the irresistible momentum of public anger (or something like that). A higher viewpoint would have enhanced this, although I guess standing on top of any Rolls Royce parked in the neighbourhood might not have gone down well with the constabulary.


The owner wouild probably have broken your neck, or got somebody else to do it for him/her. I would, old bugger or not. Oh, I forgot: I don't have a Roller... damn!

;-)

Rob C
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Rob C
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« Reply #33 on: June 13, 2012, 10:46:31 AM »
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As stamper said, let's cool it or we shall lose the thread.

You can't convince anyone to think differently from the way in which they do - assuming that they do - unless you catch them before they are adults. My belief has always been that all people should be presented with the experience of working for themselves. Self-employment is the only eye-opener anyone will ever need about the rights and wrongs, the who pays for whats or that other nonsense called fairness, a fantasy that has never existed in any real-life situation beyond that of childhood expectation.
Obviously, this enforced experience of self-employment can never be applied as I suggest, but brother, does it open your eyes regardless of prior expectations. Even mine.

Over and out, enjoy the images.

Rob C
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Slobodan Blagojevic
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« Reply #34 on: June 13, 2012, 11:27:01 AM »
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... My belief has always been that all people should be presented with the experience of working for themselves. Self-employment is the only eye-opener anyone will ever need about the rights and wrongs, the who pays for whats...

Rob, while it might indeed be educational for most and even long-term successful for some, had humanity relied on self-employment only, we wouldn't have progressed much beyond cavemen.
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kikashi
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« Reply #35 on: June 13, 2012, 11:42:00 AM »
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Explain, perhaps, how the shot demonstrates anyone at home in "luxery" (sic) apartments when it's taken in an area where nobody lives. The original post is a pseudo-political rant, wholly unconnected with the photograph.

Unquote

It is meant to be symbolic of the wealth that exists among a certain clique. The buildings, if they are occupied, represent that luxery - I assume you meant luxury -

Yes, I know how to spell. I was quoting the original post: that's what "(sic)" means.

Jeremy
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kikashi
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« Reply #36 on: June 13, 2012, 11:46:14 AM »
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The number of people saving in private company pension schemes has halved since 1991 as companies close them down. The average public sector pension is £5600 a year. The private sector £5860. The issue is final salery schemes which continue in many parts of the public sector but have gone in the private. Why companies have done this ill leave that one for you to work out, but no, public sector workers dont have great pensions but like private sector some do ok. The problem will be later in years as the pensions are cut, old poorly paid people across all sectors will be destitute. Its a problem no govt is facing up to, paying for the old. Im not an economics expert.

One of Gordon Brown's first acts as chancellor was to initiate a £3bn per year tax raid on private pension funds, so he'd have money to spend on buying votes. That's why private pension funds are not viable and have largely ceased to exist; and it's why, in some parts of the country, well over half those who are actually employed work for the government. The logic, insofar as there was any, seemed to be that public employees, knowing on which side their bread was buttered, would vote Labour.

The wanton destruction of one of the best systems in the world for pension provision was malicious vandalism. History will not be kind to the clunking fist.

Jeremy
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Rob C
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« Reply #37 on: June 13, 2012, 12:59:40 PM »
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One of Gordon Brown's first acts as chancellor was to initiate a £3bn per year tax raid on private pension funds, so he'd have money to spend on buying votes. That's why private pension funds are not viable and have largely ceased to exist; and it's why, in some parts of the country, well over half those who are actually employed work for the government. The logic, insofar as there was any, seemed to be that public employees, knowing on which side their bread was buttered, would vote Labour.

The wanton destruction of one of the best systems in the world for pension provision was malicious vandalism. History will not be kind to the clunking fist.

Jeremy


Yes, and not only pubic employee votes: why else do all those would-be immigrants hang around the Channel borders of France awaiting a hidden ferry ride across to Britain when they are already in the European Union just by being in France? I'll tell you why: first of all, we are the open-handouts idiots of Europe; secondly, those that do make the crossing instantly join the ranks of the unemployed and, in due coure, find a vote and use it - guess for whom!

Rob C
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Rob C
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« Reply #38 on: June 13, 2012, 01:11:01 PM »
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Rob, while it might indeed be educational for most and even long-term successful for some, had humanity relied on self-employment only, we wouldn't have progressed much beyond cavemen.


Indeed, but you raised a separate issue there, a bit of a red herring, as it were.

The point about the experience of working for yourself is that it cleanses you of any ideas of the world owing you anything, never mind a living. Once anyone gets that, the rest follows, whether you work for yourself or with someone else. I have always disliked the phrase working for a company; if you look at it as working with that company then your attitude is a different one altogether. And don't forget that my suggestion was for people to have the experience of working for themselves, not that they should have to continue along that path for ever.

Rob C
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Mcthecat
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« Reply #39 on: June 13, 2012, 02:55:30 PM »
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" Never in the field of human finance, has so much being owed, by so few, to so many" wasnt that Winston Churchill? Sorry couldnt help it.


Mick





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