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Author Topic: Will there be a new H5D at the Photokina?  (Read 22114 times)
Pingang
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« Reply #40 on: June 22, 2012, 01:49:08 AM »
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I don't know about then, but I do hear stuff now: Reps of pro 35mm equipment moaning.
-The pros have no money, getting paid less, so they buy amateur equipment.
-Amateurs mostly are buying pro equipment
-The amateur departments of the camera corps give the shops/reps hell because their sales are getting lowered by the sales of pro equipment to "their" customers.

Edmund

PS. You can see a bit of the same situation here in Paris in the taxi market which used to be dominated by Mercedes limos that were much nicer than most private cars. Now your taxi is often a badly maintained compact with children's seats or a grocer's wagon with tubular seat frames, while many middle class people own large private cars.

Edmund
Actually quite trye from what I ahve seen in the last few years.  Being a pro the cost of quipment will be talek into consideration, not if the pro can afford it or not, but whether it makes sense to own it - they can always rent and charge customer, the budget is there, so common pros don't need to carry the heavy depreciation.  Many pros of course can afford it, just decided it is not the most economic thing to do. Non-prfessional shoot for fun, if they can buy a sports car to make themselves happy, why not an expensive camera to show some class?  The point that they don't shoot for money so the cost of camera does not matter to them.  Pro would use an expensive equipment if the job justify it, if not, there is always rental available.

Pingang
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Pingang
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« Reply #41 on: June 22, 2012, 01:54:09 AM »
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I would be surprise if Hasselblad did.  But may be it would make sense for Hasselblad to capitalize their name into a smaller cameras, chepaer cameras, to sell a lot more.  They can't and don't have to compete with Canon, Nikon or Sony, there are still many smaller camera conpany can survive 1% market share on the one that is so big, even Hasselblad comes back to capture 40% of medium format digital business, it is still a rather small business in comparison.
The sales of Canon 5DII along is hundred times larger than the whole medium format business combined.
I think Hasselblad may not have the highest pixel count back, but the H4D60 and H4D40 is really quite enough for them to hang around, I think the market is the smaller format where Hasselblad can make money, and their name still have high value.

Pingang
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Enda Cavanagh
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« Reply #42 on: June 23, 2012, 07:51:59 PM »
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People keep going on about the pixel count like this is the only thing that's important with a MF system. Sure it is important for MF users but it's not the be all and end all. The Canons and Nikons are catching up on the MF systems with the sensors but they're way ahead in terms of useful features that really make sense. Hasselblad are at the very back of the pack. Way behind any DSLR system or MF system. The reason I use MF is that I can put the back on a view camera. The quality of the handmade lenses far out weighs anything else IMO BUT the reason I love this system is because of the lens movements achievable and from a far wider selection of lenses. The features I would love to see on a H5D is live view untethered and something closer to a 35mm system rather than an IQ in terms of screen quality, resolution, clarity in sunlight etc. Liveview is hugely important to a poor Professional like me!! Focus range confirmation similar to the IQ would also be useful. Another hugely useful addition would be a power supply option when used on a view camera similar to the IQ. I believe video camera batteries can be used. Where the Hassies also falls way short is the inability to shoot beyond 2 minutes. I would love the ability to shoot night photography.
I find it sad that 3 pages into the post people are mostly arguing about figures and numbers rather than what any new system should have beyond pixel count.
« Last Edit: June 23, 2012, 08:02:28 PM by Enda Cavanagh » Logged

EricWHiss
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« Reply #43 on: June 23, 2012, 10:41:18 PM »
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Edna,
Do you mean the sensors? Just asking cause I think the MF camera that is really behind is the Mamiya DF.  The H bodies are actually pretty advanced ... stuff like the true focus is really quite innovative.  And you can say their backs are behind but they offer multishot and that's a big plus over DSLR's.   
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ErikKaffehr
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« Reply #44 on: June 23, 2012, 10:56:50 PM »
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Hi,

He talks about having the back on a view camera with moves and the need for live view and long exposures. So he may not be helped by advanced AF in the Hasselblad body.

Best regards
Erik

Edna,
Do you mean the sensors? Just asking cause I think the MF camera that is really behind is the Mamiya DF.  The H bodies are actually pretty advanced ... stuff like the true focus is really quite innovative.  And you can say their backs are behind but they offer multishot and that's a big plus over DSLR's.   

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Enda Cavanagh
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« Reply #45 on: June 24, 2012, 07:30:03 AM »
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Yes Erik you are right. I use the back on a view camera away from a studio in most cases. The Phase One Backs accommodate the landscape and architectural photographers  much better than Hasselblad. Believe it or not Eric but there are photographers other than studio photographers out there  Cheesy But seriously true phocus is a useless tool for a lot of photographers outside the studio plus once you shoot wide angle there is no need for it. I actually would never use it. The other tools I mentioned would hugely aid my workflow. Hasselblad keep pushing the true phocus. It's great as long as you shoot a particular type of image but it's pointless for a whole lot of other situations. The phocus indicator on the IQ backs on the other hand is a fantastic tool.

IMO the multishots are useless for the majority of cases. If you want to take advantage of the multishot than you can't have moving objects in the scene so that rules it out of most cases away from a studio environment. It also can't be used for portrait shots within the studio enviornment. You can turn off the multishot but than what's the point in having it. The Phase One IQ180 back has jumped way ahead of anything Hasselblad has to offer because of it's sensor. But the main reason I would be tempted to change from Hasselblad are because of the reasons I gave in the previous post. I forgot to mention 2 other huge pluses. The lower native resolution plus the ability to shoot up to iso 3200 (at 20 megapixels)

I think Phase One sat down and actually considered what the photographers want and it's up to Hasselblad to come up with something truly innovative. Untethered live view is crucial in this day and age. People here have commented on losing customers to Nikon, but I would say a large amount of Hasselblad users have converted to Phase One.

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JV
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« Reply #46 on: June 24, 2012, 07:53:18 AM »
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Yes Erik you are right. I use the back on a view camera away from a studio in most cases. The Phase One Backs accommodate the landscape and architectural photographers  much better than Hasselblad. Believe it or not Eric but there are photographers other than studio photographers out there  Cheesy But seriously true phocus is a useless tool for a lot of photographers outside the studio plus once you shoot wide angle there is no need for it. I actually would never use it. The other tools I mentioned would hugely aid my workflow. Hasselblad keep pushing the true phocus. It's great as long as you shoot a particular type of image but it's pointless for a whole lot of other situations. The phocus indicator on the IQ backs on the other hand is a fantastic tool.

IMO the multishots are useless for the majority of cases. If you want to take advantage of the multishot than you can't have moving objects in the scene so that rules it out of most cases away from a studio environment. It also can't be used for portrait shots within the studio enviornment. You can turn off the multishot but than what's the point in having it. The Phase One IQ180 back has jumped way ahead of anything Hasselblad has to offer because of it's sensor. But the main reason I would be tempted to change from Hasselblad are because of the reasons I gave in the previous post. I forgot to mention 2 other huge pluses. The lower native resolution plus the ability to shoot up to iso 3200 (at 20 megapixels)

I think Phase One sat down and actually considered what the photographers want and it's up to Hasselblad to come up with something truly innovative. Untethered live view is crucial in this day and age. People here have commented on losing customers to Nikon, but I would say a large amount of Hasselblad users have converted to Phase One.

Believe it or not but there are also photographers other than landscape photographers out there  Wink

In your post above you completely ignore the Phase One body.  If you compare the Phase One body to the Hasselblad body (or to the Hy6 body) it is a very easy choice, it really is.  High ISO performance is not good with any back.  The H4D-40 does a good ISO 1600.  Similar to what the Leica S2 and the Pentax 645D do.  The only backs that are really lagging behind there are the Phase one backs and especially the Leaf backs...  The $40K IQ180 does ISO 3200 at 20MP, so what, my X-Pro1 does a good 6400 at 16MP, hardly impressive and with a 40MP back you will only get 10MP, and the base ISO 800 will be worse than the base ISO 800 of my P30+ and that is a 5 years old back, hardly progress I would say...
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Enda Cavanagh
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« Reply #47 on: June 24, 2012, 08:29:23 AM »
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JV
I'm not sure what you're point is. Why are you comparing a medium format back with a camwra with a smaller CMOS in relation to high ISO performance. Of course the Fuji will perform better.

Are you seriously trying to convince anyone here that the advancements made on the OQ 180 are not real progress over previous MF backs.

I am a Hasselblad user but I have to say the IQ backs look a lot more attractive right now. I have not seen an IQ back on a Phase One body so I can't comment on its build. I'll leave that to others. I have played with the back it self and it seems very solid.
« Last Edit: June 24, 2012, 09:02:28 AM by Enda Cavanagh » Logged

JV
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« Reply #48 on: June 24, 2012, 10:37:09 AM »
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Are you seriously trying to convince anyone here that the advancements made on the OQ 180 are not real progress over previous MF backs.

I have never said such a thing.  Please re-read my post.  My point is:

1) you use a digital back on a view camera.  Not everybody does that and as such not everybody's needs are the same.
2) I am unimpressed by the Phase One sensor+ technology, especially when deployed on a 40MP back.

Joris.
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Enda Cavanagh
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« Reply #49 on: June 24, 2012, 12:40:29 PM »
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Joris
I listed a bunch of reasons how IMO the Hassleblad H system could be improved. For some reason you picked a high ISO as the only point out of that list which is, as any MF user well knows is a weakness on MF systems. The fact that you can shoot at all on a MF at 3200 ISO actually is progress and you actually DID say "hardly progress I would say." Comparing it to a smaller CMOS makes no sense.

I use the back on my H3D also. I would wish for any of the tools I listed whether I use the back on my view camera or not. The point is there are a lot of photographers who would find these tools very useful. A tool indicating the range of the scene in focus is much more useful than the true focus for most uses. The camera should be as useful a tool as possible for as many types of photographer as possible. That is what makes a truely great camera system. Hasselblad seem to have missed that point. They might claim that the amount of photographers who use their backs on view cameras is small compared to the rest of their client base. Maybe if they had a camera system that could match or exceed the IQ180 in terms of it's features and to a lesser extent it's resolution than that would change.

Anyway. I am more interested on what Hasselblad users would look for in a new system rather than squabbling over what did or did not say.



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JV
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« Reply #50 on: June 24, 2012, 01:02:19 PM »
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Enda, you are twisting my words again.   The hardly progress remark was related to the fact that the base ISO 800 performance of the newer IQ backs is worse than the base ISO performance of the P30+.  The fact that you can shoot at 3200 ISO is indeed progress but mainly for the IQ180 back where you still end up with 20MP.  For the IQ140 back the end result is a 10MP file and there I find that sensor+ is not a good solution.  Enough said.  Joris. 
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Enda Cavanagh
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« Reply #51 on: June 24, 2012, 01:04:38 PM »
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Read my last sentence.
"Anyway. I am more interested on what Hasselblad users would look for in a new system rather than squabbling over what did or did not say"
enough said
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Dustbak
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« Reply #52 on: June 25, 2012, 02:42:28 AM »
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I am a HB user too and completely concur with Enda. Currently, when you are a view/technical camera user, there is room for improvement on the HB side. When you primarily use the H body for the back it is a different story.

The long promised battery solution for the 60 so it can be used on a tech cam is the minimum I would be expecting. Things like, live view on the screen, focus peaking, binning, etc.. are things that would be very much appreciated by people that would like to use things like Arca's or Alpa's.

I would appreciate TB/USB3 & improved tethered stability.
« Last Edit: June 25, 2012, 02:56:38 AM by Dustbak » Logged
Quentin
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« Reply #53 on: June 25, 2012, 04:06:58 AM »
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Yes, back onto topic. No-one has said why there should be a new H5D? What (more) would you want in the body? [Let's hear some specifics - that would be more interesting than debating production costs].

Now the sensor/back is another matter.

For starters, Hasselblad should learn how to properly exploit the best-in-class dark current of their Kodak 6-micron 40MP and 50MP CCDs. If Phase One can deliver 1 hour noise free exposures with the previous generation of 6.8 micron sensors, there is absolutely no excuse for Hasselblad being stuck at 1 - 4 minutes with sensors which have roughly one quarter the level of dark current.

Ray

Good point.

Even Kodak some years ago acheved near noiseless long exposures with the now defunkt 14n DSLR camera using dark frame subtraction, and it worked brilliantly.  This must be something Hasselblad could achieve with a firmware upgrade.

Hassy doubled the resolution of the rear screen and added other features for the H4D-40 and 50 with a firmware upgrade.  I thought it pretty extraordinary that they had supplied a camera with the rear screen running at half its potential resolution.  What other tricks might they include in a future firmware release?
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ErikKaffehr
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« Reply #54 on: June 25, 2012, 05:17:44 AM »
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Hi,

But the back represents the greatest value. I guess that Hasselblad wants to sell backs instead of selling cameras and lenses letting other companies making money on backs.

Best regards
Erik

Restricting user base is indeed a mistake. They could sell that much more lenses.
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Enda Cavanagh
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« Reply #55 on: June 25, 2012, 07:12:11 AM »
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Hi Erik

Sure they have some great value upgrades at the moment but I would say that probably reflects their lack of sales. I think they have put too much focus on the try focus (pardon the pun) and the multishot. Therre are a lot of photographers who would have no need for that and a lot of photographers who would have a throng need for tools that are not available.

Many of the features we mentioned would be very very useful whether it be on the view camera or on the Hasselblad body. Untethered live view is possible on most descent DSlRs so it's not an unrealistic request from existing Hasselblad users to have it. I would certainly use it on the body. A proper long exposure facility is also something that a lot of users would wish for.

The ability to use separate batteries is a feature offered by other backs for years so I don't really think it's an unrealistic request.

Personally I would want the whole camera system if I was to upgrade. The camera system and lenses are as mentioned really top class. It's just tools that would assist and improve my workflow that I feel are lacking at the moment.





 


Hi,

But the back represents the greatest value. I guess that Hasselblad wants to sell backs instead of selling cameras and lenses letting other companies making money on backs.

Best regards
Erik

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hasselbladfan
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« Reply #56 on: June 26, 2012, 11:16:45 AM »
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It is the chicken and the egg.

Once you enter a particular system (even second hand or by ebay), you buy some extra lenses and once you have the lenses, you upgrade to a new or second hand back that works with all these lenses.

If you don't have the option to buy second hand cameras, you don't buy any new lenses and if you don't own lenses, you don't buy an new or next second hand camera / back.

I don't understand why Hasselblad is not making these refurbished backs / cameras available at low entry prices. You can still make great pictures with a 3 year old camera !
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Enda Cavanagh
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« Reply #57 on: June 26, 2012, 12:49:55 PM »
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I don't understand why Hasselblad is not making these refurbished backs / cameras available at low entry prices. You can still make great pictures with a 3 year old camera !

I actually wonder where all these 2nd hand cameras go which they take when upgrading. They even offer an upgrade price on their competitors cameras. WHEEEEERE DO THEEEEEY GO?
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EricWHiss
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« Reply #58 on: June 26, 2012, 11:20:04 PM »
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Enda,
The orig topic was about bodies not backs and that was what I was interested in. For someone like you this thread should be of little interest.  I do think the phase body rubbish, and praise the H4 and Hy6.  I hope that all three makes will have updates this fall. 

btw - Good luck with your photo work whatever gear you use.
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Enda Cavanagh
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« Reply #59 on: June 27, 2012, 12:44:46 AM »
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Hi Eric
Sorry. Maybe I'm nor making myself very clear but I am talking about the Camera as a whole and not just when the back is on a view camera. I use the back on the body and on the view camera. I would like to use those tools as would many on the body and on the view camera.
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