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Author Topic: Stock shooting, what works best?  (Read 5999 times)
KevinA
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« on: June 15, 2012, 03:24:56 AM »
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I think my paying clients will probably be happy with 5D quality, but I also intend shooting stock footage at the same time (It will be stabilised aerial) what quality is likely to give me the best return for my money? I'm also shooting stills so in some ways a DSLR is best. Not if it compromises sales though. The 1D c has some appeal even though I think 4K will be overkill, the HD output with a 60 fps option could be nice and 4K if I really need it.
The other way is two systems, something like the BMC, 2K sounds a lot more practical to me. So for people looking to buy stock would a DSLR limit my sales?
I'm not looking to provide cheap micro stock, the capture cost alone make that a none starter, I think video might be clinging onto "quality is worth paying for" more than the stills business and I'm not looking to change that.

Thanks,

Kevin.
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Kevin.
Morgan_Moore
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« Reply #1 on: June 15, 2012, 03:37:53 AM »
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This is interesting - sorry if Im going to theorise rather than offer solutions

This is where Red or 4k should be king - shooting video you can grab from - or at least change the settings come back for a second pass and aquire stills

Is the red or other system acually up to this in terms of ease of settings management remotely etc .. I dont know

Back on the ground.. or rather off it

I dont think arty DOF comes into heli footage does it?

So sensor size is of little concern.

A camera like the EX1 is very sharp, compared to a DLSR  so thats a sharp file - with rolling shutter

The BMC will be sharper and have a flexible file - still rolling shutter

The Ikonostop has a CMOS shutter - not rolling - and shoots DNGs

Then you are at Scarlet

I think  a DSLR could be a poor choice with soft, moree jello files ( I guess you could be shooting detailed wides)

I dont know the old 3CCD cameras - but global shutter - worth checkin them

The drawback with a cam like the EX1 is the build in lens is a bit bendy - which might matter

An EX3 has a removable lens and I guess you can aquire quality glass..

Bla bla

Reading that back the one cam solution really Scarlet is the thing here..

If the '5k stills' are any good
If you can get it to work (change the settings fast and maybe romotely, and be reliable for any amount of time)
You can shoot 4k motion or with a crop 2k higher frame rate

Also you stabilizer divice might have a weight limit?

S

« Last Edit: June 15, 2012, 03:44:23 AM by Morgan_Moore » Logged

Sam Morgan Moore Cornwall
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fredjeang
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« Reply #2 on: June 15, 2012, 04:19:33 AM »
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Could you precise if you're going to fly or if it's gona be remote controled copter ?
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KevinA
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« Reply #3 on: June 15, 2012, 04:35:30 AM »
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This is interesting - sorry if Im going to theorise rather than offer solutions

This is where Red or 4k should be king - shooting video you can grab from - or at least change the settings come back for a second pass and aquire stills

Is the red or other system acually up to this in terms of ease of settings management remotely etc .. I dont know

Back on the ground.. or rather off it

I dont think arty DOF comes into heli footage does it?

So sensor size is of little concern.

A camera like the EX1 is very sharp, compared to a DLSR  so thats a sharp file - with rolling shutter

The BMC will be sharper and have a flexible file - still rolling shutter

The Ikonostop has a CMOS shutter - not rolling - and shoots DNGs

Then you are at Scarlet

I think  a DSLR could be a poor choice with soft, moree jello files ( I guess you could be shooting detailed wides)

I dont know the old 3CCD cameras - but global shutter - worth checkin them

The drawback with a cam like the EX1 is the build in lens is a bit bendy - which might matter

An EX3 has a removable lens and I guess you can aquire quality glass..

Bla bla

Reading that back the one cam solution really Scarlet is the thing here..

If the '5k stills' are any good
If you can get it to work (change the settings fast and maybe romotely, and be reliable for any amount of time)
You can shoot 4k motion or with a crop 2k higher frame rate

Also you stabilizer divice might have a weight limit?

S


Thanks Morgan,
What puts me off Red is the considerable investment I would need in a system to handle a Rocket and 4k. I just find the RED a bit scary.
Rolling shutter on things like a 5D is a problem, less so when well stabilised, I've been the best part of a year working on a stabilising system, I'm just about there, I wanted a portable rig I can pickup and put down that is suitable for just about anything that gets me in the air. That was the challenge I set myself. After lots of complicated designs I'm down too some underground drainage pipe, bearings, bungee cord and bicycle inner tube, 3 gyros and some aluminium. To me getting it smooth out of camera is the trick, not difficult on wide shots. I don't intend to be restricted to wide only views, I want to know I can get good tele views as well. You are correct about dof not being an issue in general, I can see occasions when a tele view of the top of a tower might be nice  with the background thrown out, nothing I'm going to insist on when making a camera choice all the same.
In some ways the Canon 1D C fits into my workflow best, in lots of other ways it just does not appeal (over priced under spec'd). I can't see me doing fast pans so I think the latest cmos are probably OK regarding the rolling shutter providing the camera is stable.
The Blackmagic with the Da Vinci is very tempting (Is it for sale yet?) although it would disrupt my airtime workflow.
The less weight the more effective the rig will be.
At the end of the day it comes down to price and return of investment. If shooting RED opens up lots more avenues for earning and a better return it would make sense, if all I'm selling is for things that could of been shot with Gopro quality all sense goes out of the window.
I guess it's a market I know nothing about, I don't know if it might be the BBC with quality acceptance limits, or 5 secs of corporate that are happy as long as they can see something.

Kevin.
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KevinA
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« Reply #4 on: June 15, 2012, 04:37:25 AM »
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Could you precise if you're going to fly or if it's gona be remote controled copter ?
Real helicopter, mostly a Twin Squirrel, occasional R44, Jet ranger. Maybe even a little Cessna.

Kevin.
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Morgan_Moore
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« Reply #5 on: June 15, 2012, 04:59:59 AM »
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With Red which appears to be the right tool for the job Id not bother with all the computer stuff

Id rent the camera and a load of memeory

I then take the drives to a post house and get them to..

put it all (raw) on a cheapo hard drive

Export some 1080 in proress with a reasonalbe but slightyl flat look

How you get Red stills - no idea..

Again you might not need a post house, you might just need a sleep based workflow - where you use your current computer muscle overnight to export 1080

S
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Morgan_Moore
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« Reply #6 on: June 15, 2012, 05:04:20 AM »
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Of course using one body could be a gift or a horror -im not sure

I guess having a couple of DSLR even 'crap' - ones (D90? 550d?) and a video camera could be simpler

'crap' dlsrs are excellent and very light/small and doubtless have a file on par with a still from an Epic

S
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Sam Morgan Moore Cornwall
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fredjeang
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« Reply #7 on: June 15, 2012, 05:45:42 AM »
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Why not rigging a Red and a dslr at the same time?
In the end you'll have very little focussing working charge on the red because I guess you're going to shoot wide and while the motion cam is filming, concentrate on the still dslr operation.

there is a big problem with 8 bits cameras in aerial because the kind of takes aerial is requiring are very prone to posterization: (flat fields, water lakes, rivers, sea).
I'd avoid dslrs/evils cameras for aerial.

The interesting thing of mixing a Red and a Canon on the same rig is that you have best of both worlds, but at the same time you have backups of both cameras (the Canon can film and the Red can extract stills)
« Last Edit: June 15, 2012, 05:48:39 AM by fredjeang » Logged
KevinA
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« Reply #8 on: June 15, 2012, 07:30:29 AM »
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Thats getting way to complicated. It would also achieve some boring footage. I think you need to shoot video and think video, then think stills and shoot stills. What would make it all easier is keeping equipment to a minimum. I'll give the Red another look, but I still feel uneasy about going that route.

Kevin.
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KevinA
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« Reply #9 on: June 15, 2012, 07:37:06 AM »
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Which Red are we talking about here Epic or Scarlet?

Kevin.
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fredjeang
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« Reply #10 on: June 15, 2012, 09:35:10 AM »
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Thats getting way to complicated. It would also achieve some boring footage. I think you need to shoot video and think video, then think stills and shoot stills. What would make it all easier is keeping equipment to a minimum. I'll give the Red another look, but I still feel uneasy about going that route.

Kevin.

I agree but that's precisely what I meant. Look, it's thinking video but once the video camera is recording it's recording. You need the same focal lengh on both cameras and only need to monitoring one cam of your choice as both are framing exactly the same (and in aerial focussing distance with the right d.o.f) the rig could be similar to what's in use in 3D. (see also some rigs-handlers used in submarinism that could work brilliantly) So it's shooting basicaly with video in mind but pressing the remote shutter of the canon on the right handler. With digital we can shoot so many stills "on-the-fly" enven thinking motion, in fact it works well (but not the other way), you may find it a little distracting at first but it's an automatism to get. In an hour you're done and it will become natural, and litteraly burning cards on the canon (click click click) I doubt you won't have in the end a good volume of still keepers.
So no hassle thinking extracting stills from video thinking oh well the reso is so so. You work directly the 20MP stills with the usual software, and your video apart. Piss of mind, sorry, peace of mind.

I wasn't specially thinking that the Red would be the only route. If budget isn't a concern I'd get the Epic. But you could also shoot 2 canons (easiest to get the same white balance). But really, the prob I see with motion in aerial is what I pointed about the 8 bits cameras and the posterization issue in situations you will meet easily from the sky. The idea with the motion cam is that you'd shoot in more than 8 bits, whatever the brand is.

The idea is emulating stereoscoping config but with high def still+ high def motion instead  



ok...maybe not R1s, maybe lighter and cuter



« Last Edit: June 15, 2012, 12:35:53 PM by fredjeang » Logged
Morgan_Moore
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« Reply #11 on: June 15, 2012, 12:03:50 PM »
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Which Red are we talking about here Epic or Scarlet?

Kevin.

As per your budget

Epic you might be able to grab frames, Scarlet I guess two passes, one in still mode, other doing motion,

Still think a D90 on your shoulder with a 70-200 VR would offer great longer lens stills (if you have a free hand)

I think long lens motion will be.. a challenge

S
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Hywel
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« Reply #12 on: June 15, 2012, 04:02:26 PM »
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You can shoot 4K at 25 fps with a Scarlet and pull stills from the video file. I wouldn't claim it to be ideal workflow. Right now there's no way to mark frames for inspection, so you'd have to skim through to find the frames you want. But done right it clearly has a lot of potential.

One issue is the need to shoot at high shutter speed to control of vibration and motion blur for sharp stills. 1/50th of a second probably won't do. 1/100th might, but you may find yourself needing 1/500th or less. The video will look very "Saving Private Ryan/Gladiator fight scene" as a result. That's not necessarily a bad thing but is certainly something to be aware of.

You can shoot 5K too but only at 12 fps- probably only useful to pull stills from, not really useful for actual video.

You'd have more options on an Epic. 5K with HDRx in particular - with two data streams, one at shorter exposure, you could pull your stills from the shorter shutter speed stream to get crisper results. HDRx is promised for Scarlet but currently only at low frame rates (12 fps in 4K for example). RED seem to be pretty good at steadily improving the firmware and adding features- they just added 1K at 120 fps as promised- but there's no deliver date specified for 24/25 fps HDRx for Scarlet as yet.

But I'd say it might be worth hiring a Scarlet and see if it gives acceptable results.

Incidentally, I think the need for vast computing resources for RED are overstated. I have a 2008 Mac Pro with 2 NVidia GPU cards, no RED Rocket and I'm coping fine. It needs a little forward planning to render footage at quiet times (eg overnight) but nothing I wasn't already used to doing handling thousands of MF stills exporting to massive TIFFs.

I first transcode my RED footage to ProRes Proxy at low resolution, which takes a couple of hours for a typical day's footage. I can then edit with that (I use FCPX) and use daVinci Resolve to pull in the full resolution R3D RAW files for the final output after grading. This takes less than an hour for a few-minute short outputting to full HD at full quality.

I gather Premiere Pro lets you edit with the R3D files natively, but I have no idea how much that slows things down. Even the storage requirement is not so outrageous as is sometimes portrayed. I shot 750 GB of footage on a week-long location shoot, compared with 350 GB of Hasselblad stills on the same trip. (We had a stills unit and a video unit going in parallel in different parts of the house). So for me it was only a factor of 2 up on what I was used shooting.

Doing the job properly sounds like a job for an Epic, but failing that I must admit I'd be tempted by the stills dSLR + lots of duct tape + 3 chip CCD camcorder option, or the Scarlet and two passes (one for stills at 5K with HDRx at 1/250th at 6 fps, like having a stupendous motor-drive stills cam, one for video at 1/50th 25 fps ) myself!

Cheers, Hywel
« Last Edit: June 15, 2012, 05:15:31 PM by Hywel » Logged
fredjeang
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« Reply #13 on: June 15, 2012, 05:33:07 PM »
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...I first transcode my RED footage to ProRes Proxy at low resolution, which takes a couple of hours for a typical day's footage...

What ?
The Scarlet doesn't generate automaticaly the lowres proxies ?
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Hywel
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« Reply #14 on: June 15, 2012, 06:10:34 PM »
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What ?
The Scarlet doesn't generate automaticaly the lowres proxies ?

No, it doesn't. You can generate one sort of proxy very quickly which is a quicktime reference pointing the original R3D (which they can do because of RED's clever wavelet codec scheme). However, the consensus is that this is a bit of a pig to work with, which is why Scarlet doesn't auto generate them the way the RED One does. You need to ship the full RAW files around to do anything with them, which can get onerous on a laptop for example.

What I'm talking about is a proper one-light colour correction in Red Cine Pro X, then exporting a half or quarter de-Bayer to ProRes Proxy. This gives a perfectly adequate full HD file to edit with- it is just missing some of the finer details and has a few artefacts, but it is very easy to ship around between machines for editing on laptops etc.. It is totally fine to edit with (actually it is similar in bit rate to the AVCHD files from my AF100!)

The final output is then generated once, after grading, at full resolution and full de-Bayer direct from the RAW, so you don't lose any additional generations. (* not strictly speaking true as I export to ProRes 422HQ and encode to my final web deliverables from that, but it does mean that I do all the grading on the RAW footage with all the advantages that brings).

Native R3D support in FCPX is due later this year, which may make this unnecessary, but actually is more likely to mean generating the proxies automatically in FCPX rather than RED Cine. Proxy to edit with then RAW when you do final output is a very smooth workflow for me.

Cheers, Hywel
« Last Edit: June 15, 2012, 06:14:47 PM by Hywel » Logged
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