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Author Topic: Srgb and Adobe RGB some beginners questions  (Read 11936 times)
sanfairyanne
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« on: June 19, 2012, 03:48:10 AM »
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My 5D2 is set in Adobe RGB, I shoot RAW then process in Lightroom/CS5. Recently I opened a Zenfolio account to see my pictures online. It was then that I noticed the huge colour difference between my monitor and someone else's. Previously I've only ever looked at them on my own monitor on Flickr.

So I did some research and came to the understanding that I should save my images as Srgb. From what I've read I think there's little doubt that for viewing on the internet - and perhaps most printing - 99% of the time this is the right way.

Trying to correct this colour discrepancy I've done this: I  process an image in Lightroom then open it in CS5 and go to SAVE FOR WEB. It's at this point that I convert the file to Srgb and then save it. However when converted the Srgb version has subdued colours. See attachments (first is the Adobe RGB second is the converted to Srgb version

I've also attached two screen grabs from the SAVE FOR WEB options in CS5. I noticed that by saving to Srgb I have the choice either of Jpeg, Gif or Png and the last attached screen grab shows a further option in the SAVE FOR WEB page where I have more choices.

My questions are:

I process the image, get to a stage where I'm happy with it then convert it to Srgb only for the colours to change to an unsatisfactory level. So can I convert it to Srgb before working on it in Lighroom. I think I probably should have set the camera to Srgb to begin with, in fact going to the Canon manual suggests just that.

Also where can I go to read up on these options in CS5's SAVE FOR WEB panel. (last two screen grabs)


Many thanks I've tried to write this in as easy way to follow as I can.
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sanfairyanne
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« Reply #1 on: June 19, 2012, 03:54:58 AM »
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I added 4 screen grabs but only two came up, here's the Adobe RGB version I mentioned and the other screen grab from the SAVE FOR WEB PAGE ON CS5.
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Tony Jay
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« Reply #2 on: June 19, 2012, 04:42:23 AM »
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You have asked a question that does cause a fair bit of confusion at times.
Recent threads have dealt with some aspects of the issues that you are raising.

However, to regroup lets go through some of the basics:
In the 5DII menu you have to decide on which colour space to assign to ones images. The choices are sRGB and Adobe RGB.
My suggestion is to use Adobe RGB if you are shooting RAW.
Although, in camera, the only application of this assignment will be to view previews on the camera's LCD screen.
Once the images are downloaded into Lightroom (your RAW converter of choice) the assigned colour space is ignored.
(This may seem confusing but it is what happens.)
Lightroom uses ProphotoRGB internally that is a very large colour space.
This is what you want to use for editing purposes.

There a couple of things to know once a file is edited.
There is no need to go near Photoshop to create an export for the purposes of Web use.
It is possible in Lr4 to softproof an image using sRGB as the proposed colour space or profile.
(I won't fully explain softproofing in this post.)
This will allow you minimize the changes in the images that you refer to.
(Note that other monitors may not be calibrated correctly so this may account for some of the changes you are seeing on those monitors.)
So unless layers or some other Photoshop only intervention is required then Photoshop is not actually required in your stated workflow.

My guess is that on reading this more issues will come to light that will then need to be subsequently clarified.
I doubt that everything will be clarified by one post.
So feel free to chew on this and digest it and then formulate new questions as required.
From what you have shared already your workflow seems unnecessarily complex but there may be other reasons for this that are not obvious.

I strongly advise you to buy the video tutorial series - Camera to Print and Screen - that is available from this website.
It covers the appropriate workflow for your needs.

Regards

Tony Jay
« Last Edit: June 19, 2012, 05:44:06 AM by Tony Jay » Logged
sanfairyanne
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« Reply #3 on: June 19, 2012, 05:54:13 AM »
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Thanks Tony,

I'm all for staying in Lightroom as much as possible, primarily because I'm not so competent with CS5 but I of course want to simplify things

It's good to know that I've probably done the right thing keeping my in camera colour space at Adobe RGB whilst shooting in RAW (I've never used Jpeg).


Although, in camera, the only application of this assignment will be to view previews on the cameras screen.
I understand what you mean, the camera's LCD screen shows a Jpeg preview.

I suppose I should start learning about softproofing.

Any further help would be very much apprciated perhaps someone can recommend a You Tube tutorial they found particularly helpful.
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Tony Jay
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« Reply #4 on: June 19, 2012, 06:12:58 AM »
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Look at the tutorial on this website - the recently completed guide to Lr4 for how to softproof in Lr4.

Regards

Tony Jay
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sanfairyanne
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« Reply #5 on: June 19, 2012, 06:37:36 AM »
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Tony,

I just watched the 10 minute clip and to be honest I'm not convinced to shell out nearly $60. I bought an Adobe ACR tutorial from LL once and barely learnt a thing from it. I found it opened up lots more questions than it answered and seemed. What I'd really prefer is a book that covered L4 and soft proofing. I have Scott Kelby's book on L3, I may well buy his L4 book. 

I notice he has a new book on the market (shows a buy on a dirt bike on the cover) Perhaps someone might recommend it. Does it go into Softproofing?

Thanks guys.
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Bryan Conner
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« Reply #6 on: June 19, 2012, 06:48:18 AM »
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I second the recommendation of the Lightroom 4 tutorials offered here.  They are wonderful and very much worth the price of admission in my opinion.  But, I understand that some folks are book people and not video people.  For those people, I recommend Martin Evening's The Adobe Photoshop Lightroom 4 Book.
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bjanes
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« Reply #7 on: June 19, 2012, 07:04:34 AM »
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My 5D2 is set in Adobe RGB, I shoot RAW then process in Lightroom/CS5. Recently I opened a Zenfolio account to see my pictures online. It was then that I noticed the huge colour difference between my monitor and someone else's. Previously I've only ever looked at them on my own monitor on Flickr.

So I did some research and came to the understanding that I should save my images as Srgb. From what I've read I think there's little doubt that for viewing on the internet - and perhaps most printing - 99% of the time this is the right way.

Trying to correct this colour discrepancy I've done this: I  process an image in Lightroom then open it in CS5 and go to SAVE FOR WEB. It's at this point that I convert the file to Srgb and then save it. However when converted the Srgb version has subdued colours. See attachments (first is the Adobe RGB second is the converted to Srgb version

The purpose of color management is to maintain color appearance. Provided that no out of gamut colors are present, an image should look exactly the same in sRGB, Adobe RGB, and ProPhotoRGB. If this is not the case, you should reexamine your workflow. An image in a wider space (Adobe or ProPhoto) will look washed out in a nonmanaged workflow which assumes sRGB

I've also attached two screen grabs from the SAVE FOR WEB options in CS5. I noticed that by saving to Srgb I have the choice either of Jpeg, Gif or Png and the last attached screen grab shows a further option in the SAVE FOR WEB page where I have more choices.

My questions are:

I process the image, get to a stage where I'm happy with it then convert it to Srgb only for the colours to change to an unsatisfactory level. So can I convert it to Srgb before working on it in Lighroom. I think I probably should have set the camera to Srgb to begin with, in fact going to the Canon manual suggests just that.

Also where can I go to read up on these options in CS5's SAVE FOR WEB panel. (last two screen grabs)

GIFs use indexed color and can only show 256 discrete colors (Wikipedia has a good article on GIFs). It is best used to show text, line art, logos, etc and is a poor choice for full color images, where JPEG is a better choice for the web. However, JPEG shows artifacts when used for text and screen captures with text or line art. PNG can either be indexed or full color and is good for text and line art, but the file size will be larger than with JPEG. Again, Wikipedia has a good article.

Color Management is a good review, but is becoming rather dated. Color Management for Photographers by Andrew Rodney is also a good resource.

Regards,

Bill
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digitaldog
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« Reply #8 on: June 19, 2012, 07:22:23 AM »
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I just watched the 10 minute clip and to be honest I'm not convinced to shell out nearly $60. I bought an Adobe ACR tutorial from LL once and barely learnt a thing from it. I found it opened up lots more questions than it answered and seemed. What I'd really prefer is a book that covered L4 and soft proofing. I have Scott Kelby's book on L3, I may well buy his L4 book. 

This is a fellow who doesn't believe (understand?) soft proofing, you sure that's a good idea?

If you don't think the LuLa video is worth $60, you might want to check out the superb video tutorials by George Jardine. Here's a free taste of his style (an excellent video on converting color to B&W): http://mulita.com/blog/?p=1244

His style is quite different from Kelby! No fast food fun and jokes, it's all business and zero fat.
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Andrew Rodney
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sanfairyanne
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« Reply #9 on: June 19, 2012, 08:37:40 AM »
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I clicked on the George Jardine link, it appears his videos are Library and Develop based. I believe I need to learn Softproofing.


Perhaps someone can answer this;

If I upload to Flickr via the Lightroom publish feature does Lightoom automatically convert to Srgb?
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digitaldog
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« Reply #10 on: June 19, 2012, 08:45:35 AM »
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I clicked on the George Jardine link, it appears his videos are Library and Develop based. I believe I need to learn Softproofing.

Perhaps someone can answer this;

If I upload to Flickr via the Lightroom publish feature does Lightoom automatically convert to Srgb?

Soft proofing is in Develop & George covers it.

Answer to your question: yes, sRGB.
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Andrew Rodney
Author “Color Management for Photographers”
http://digitaldog.net/
sanfairyanne
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« Reply #11 on: June 19, 2012, 10:06:54 AM »
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Thanks to all, I think I'll get George Jardin's video's after all.
 Smiley
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Simon Garrett
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« Reply #12 on: June 20, 2012, 01:59:19 PM »
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Is your monitor calibrated and profiled?  I mean with a hardware device (Spyder, ColorMunki or whatever)?  If not, I'd strongly advise using only sRGB.  In fact, Lightroom can give problems with uncalibrated/profiled monitors, or if the monitor profile isn't correct (as it uses several different colour spaces internally). 
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sanfairyanne
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« Reply #13 on: June 20, 2012, 02:32:27 PM »
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It was calibrated, but I didn't do it so I'll get it done professionally. Calibrated an Profiled.

Thanks I'm finally moving forwards.
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Bryan Conner
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« Reply #14 on: June 20, 2012, 02:39:19 PM »
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In fact, Lightroom can give problems with uncalibrated/profiled monitors, or if the monitor profile isn't correct (as it uses several different colour spaces internally). 

I find this statement very interesting and would like to know more.  Could you explain this please?
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Tony Jay
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« Reply #15 on: June 20, 2012, 03:18:18 PM »
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I agree with you Bryan.
Problem is that one can only give information and guide individuals - ultimately what they believe and do is up to them.

Regards

Tony Jay
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Bryan Conner
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« Reply #16 on: June 20, 2012, 11:52:20 PM »
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I agree with you Bryan.
Problem is that one can only give information and guide individuals - ultimately what they believe and do is up to them.

Regards

Tony Jay

Yes, you are correct.  Some people are in a completely different color space than the rest of us.  I hope the poster will enlighten us though. You never know, someone might learn something!
« Last Edit: June 20, 2012, 11:59:20 PM by Bryan Conner » Logged

sanfairyanne
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« Reply #17 on: June 21, 2012, 12:10:57 AM »
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Sorry I wanted to reply in further detail but was up to my ears in work. I'm quite obviously a novice when it comes to both photography and even more so printing. In fact I've never printed out a shot.

I'm using a MacBook lap top with a measly 14'' screen, clearly not the best choice when assessing an image for large printing on fine art paper.

I was given my laptop and was assured the screen was calibrated, however, I really don't know if this is true.

In fact, Lightroom can give problems with uncalibrated/profiled monitors, or if the monitor profile isn't correct (as it uses several different colour spaces internally). 


I too was a bit unsure about this comment from Simon Garrett, I thought Lightroom only used one colour space (pro photo).

Tony, In your first reply you said: Lightroom uses ProphotoRGB internally that is a very large colour space.
This is what you want to use for editing purposes.


So to get back to what's confusing here's my question:

Ok so if I edit an image in Lightroom it's going to be saved in ProphotoRGB but what if it's an HDR.

As an example I want to process an HDR Pano, I shoot the files in RAW with the camera set to Adobe RGB. I import to Lightroom then export to a folder on the desktop, then process the HDR's in Photomatrix, then process the pano' in Photoshop, then re-import to Lightroom. Does my image go back into Lightroom with the Prophoto RGB colour space?

If I can clear this up it will really help.



Many thanks


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Simon Garrett
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« Reply #18 on: June 21, 2012, 02:44:30 AM »
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In fact, Lightroom can give problems with uncalibrated/profiled monitors, or if the monitor profile isn't correct (as it uses several different colour spaces internally).  

I find this statement very interesting and would like to know more.  Could you explain this please?
Lightroom uses ProPhoto RGB in Develop Module.  (Actually, a variant of ProPhoto with linear gamma for editing, but sRGB gamma for the histogram).  So in Develop Module, the image displayed on the monitor is in ProPhoto RGB colour space.

Lightroom previews are stored in Adobe RGB colour space.  So in Library Module, it's displaying images in Adobe RGB.

Ideally, there needs to to be a correct monitor profile in place.  I think (but I'm not sure) that Lightroom assumes an sRGB profile if there isn't a monitor profile for the monitor.  However, that's very much second-best.  To get accurate colours from Lightroom, it's much better to use a monitor that's calibrated/profiled with a hardware device (Spyder, Colormunki, EyeOne, Huey etc). 

Also, it appears that Lightroom is more fussy about profiles than some programs.  I've read somewhere (but can't find an authoritative link) that if the histogram displayed in Lightroom is brown (rather than grey with coloured peaks) then it's saying the monitor profile is corrupt.  In particular, Lightroom won't work with icc v4 profiles.  Most more modern profiling/calibration software gives you the choice of v2 or v4 profiles: you need to choose v2 for Lightroom (if you don't get the choice, then it's probably v2).  

PS - If there is a correct monitor profile in place, then monitor colour management with Lightroom just works.  There are no adjustments or settings in LR you can get wrong.  In Photoshop, by contrast, there are lots of ways of screwing up colour settings, which means that if colours in LR don't look the same as PS or another program, then in my experience it's usually LR that's right and the other program that's wrong. 
« Last Edit: June 21, 2012, 04:18:30 AM by Simon Garrett » Logged
Tony Jay
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« Reply #19 on: June 21, 2012, 03:08:25 AM »
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My information is that Lr will open the HDR image in ProphotoRGB.
It is true that the actual colours displayed will not exceed AdobeRGB until further editing occurs that may pull colours beyond the AdobeRGB colour space.
Assigning a "sticky" colour space will only occur on export from Lr - the defaults are sRGB, AdobeRGB, and ProphotoRGB.

BTW I can only re-iterate my suggestion that you purchase the tutorial "Camera to Print and Screen".
This tutorial covers the entire workflow in major depth.
Many of the most enthusiastic buyers are thorough professionals yet these individuals admit that they still learn things from this tutorial.
It is a very worthwhile primer that covers all your current questions including many that you have not thought of yet.
You may need to take our word for this that the money you fork over will not be wasted.

Another BTW: even if your monitor was calibrated at one point in time it will NOT stay that way. ALL monitors require regular calibration every couple of weeks. I suggest that you either research the colour management threads for questions regarding recommendations about profiling equipment or post a new question on the forum about this issue. (I use Spyder equipment but I would prefer that you seek broader opinions since there are several other proprietary options to consider.)

Please feel free to continue asking questions and clarifying issues as you work through your workflow.

Regards

Tony Jay
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