Ad
Ad
Ad
Poll
Question: What percentage of the framed price do you charge just for a print?
50% - 3 (16.7%)
60% - 0 (0%)
70% - 5 (27.8%)
80% - 2 (11.1%)
90% - 2 (11.1%)
I only sell prints/ I only sell framed - 6 (33.3%)
Total Voters: 17

Pages: [1]   Bottom of Page
Print
Author Topic: Print Price / Framed Price Ratio  (Read 10042 times)
summit68
Newbie
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 17


WWW
« on: June 22, 2012, 11:45:07 AM »
ReplyReply

If you sell prints, most of the value is in the print, although most of the cost is in framing.  What is the ratio you generally use to price prints vs framed prints?  I don't want to know how much you charge, just the ratio.  For instance, $1000 for a framed print, $700 for just the print (70%).
Logged
summit68
Newbie
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 17


WWW
« Reply #1 on: June 25, 2012, 12:47:24 PM »
ReplyReply

Bump.
Logged
Slobodan Blagojevic
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 5536



WWW
« Reply #2 on: June 25, 2012, 01:04:36 PM »
ReplyReply

While I've been visiting various art fairs, I was always utterly baffled by artists who sell their work (be it photography or painting/drawing) for the same price as framing (i.e., 50% in your poll above) and often even less than that. I usually ask them why do they value their art the same or less as the dead wood/metal and glass!? I mean seriously people, these are dead materials, mass produced by machines. Some of them told me they never thought of it that way, their excuse being "the market dictates it that way". Excuse me? You are telling me that buyers are perfectly happy to pay $100-$200 for a dead wood, but not more than that for a work of art, with all that blood, sweat and tears, talent, vision, ability to inspire, move, touch, etc.?! For something deeply personal and unique vs. mass machine product!?
Logged

Slobodan

Flickr
500px
louoates
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 735



WWW
« Reply #3 on: June 25, 2012, 06:25:41 PM »
ReplyReply

While I've been visiting various art fairs, I was always utterly baffled by artists who sell their work (be it photography or painting/drawing) for the same price as framing (i.e., 50% in your poll above) and often even less than that. I usually ask them why do they value their art the same or less as the dead wood/metal and glass!? I mean seriously people, these are dead materials, mass produced by machines. Some of them told me they never thought of it that way, their excuse being "the market dictates it that way". Excuse me? You are telling me that buyers are perfectly happy to pay $100-$200 for a dead wood, but not more than that for a work of art, with all that blood, sweat and tears, talent, vision, ability to inspire, move, touch, etc.?! For something deeply personal and unique vs. mass machine product!?

That's my pet peeve also. But what amazes me even more when I walk the art shows is the horrible framing jobs. There are very few photographers who can professionally mat and frame their own work. What happens is many of them use whatever cheap frames they can get with the reasoning that framing is too expensive. What it does is devalue whatever print that's shoehorned into the frame. I'm talking about crooked and poorly cut mats and mat borders that have nothing to do with esthetics. It does fit in the frame somehow and that seems to be the only important consideration.
Logged
SecondFocus
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 461


WWW
« Reply #4 on: June 26, 2012, 08:27:10 PM »
ReplyReply

My last exhibit was about 2 years ago at a gallery. It was up for maybe 6 months, I don't recall exactly. The framing was done by a framer here who does exhibits and museums. I did classic black wood frames, matting, and museum quality plexiglass. Most of the framing cost $200 - $400 each. I added that cost to my print prices for each which was about $750 - $1750. So the totals were about $950 - $2150 for framed work. I think I actually sold only one un-framed.
Logged

Ian L. Sitren
SecondFocus
Brad Barr
Newbie
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 20


WWW
« Reply #5 on: June 28, 2012, 08:21:27 AM »
ReplyReply

I think the reason you dont have more responses...is most folks dont use a ratio method of pricing.  The print is a set amount, and the frame is a set amount based solely on the cost of goods sold.  Add the two together and thats the selling price.  

As for a pet peeve of what someone else sells their frame at???  Really??  Who cares?  Its their business.  Who is to say that in their instance 50% was what was warranted for that particular frame vs the print size in question.   Its just not our business, its theirs.  Sorry...

As for a ratio....that also depends upon print size.  ie you can only charge so much for a 16x20, and there are some pretty expensive framing options out there that could easily match the print price/cost....so lets cut each other a little slack on how they choose to price their goods.  Wink


Quote
value their art the same or less as the dead wood/metal and glass
gee, I cant imagine why folks think photographers/artists are pretentious....

its not like our "art" took us hours and hours and hours...sure it did for the first print...but once the work is done, reprints can be made very cost efficiently, (ie mass produced by machines)  thus the pricing difference between photo art and true original art pieces...ie paintings.
Quote
mass produced by machines.

Framing is a very personal choice folks.  I've lost sales cause the shot I did was in the wrong frame for the client...or the clients tastes more accurately.....and sure I was more than willing to swap frames, but that little bit of doubt can cost you the deal sometimes.  
« Last Edit: June 28, 2012, 08:38:11 AM by Brad Barr » Logged

Brad
www.bciphoto.com
www.bci-sports.com
www.sportsshooter.com/photobrad

D3s, D3, D300, Nikon: 14-24 2.8, 24-120 f4VR 70-200VRII, 300 2.8, 400 2.8VR; 1.7-TC2, Siggy 50 & 85 1.4's + Spiderholster, D300 IR just for grins.
Slobodan Blagojevic
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 5536



WWW
« Reply #6 on: June 28, 2012, 10:14:08 AM »
ReplyReply

Oh, boy... there is always one  Sad
« Last Edit: June 28, 2012, 10:48:28 AM by Slobodan Blagojevic » Logged

Slobodan

Flickr
500px
PeterAit
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 1793



WWW
« Reply #7 on: June 28, 2012, 05:32:49 PM »
ReplyReply

While I've been visiting various art fairs, I was always utterly baffled by artists who sell their work (be it photography or painting/drawing) for the same price as framing (i.e., 50% in your poll above) and often even less than that. I usually ask them why do they value their art the same or less as the dead wood/metal and glass!? I mean seriously people, these are dead materials, mass produced by machines. Some of them told me they never thought of it that way, their excuse being "the market dictates it that way". Excuse me? You are telling me that buyers are perfectly happy to pay $100-$200 for a dead wood, but not more than that for a work of art, with all that blood, sweat and tears, talent, vision, ability to inspire, move, touch, etc.?! For something deeply personal and unique vs. mass machine product!?

Exactamundo. Few buyers are, I am sorry to say, buying "a work of art." They are buying an attractive rectangular object that will look good over their couch. The rare buyer who really appreciates the artistry of good photography is a treasure. For those of you who make a living from photography (I am not in this category), would you rather have a philistine who writes a check or a true art lover who gives you complements and buys nothing? Hmmm....
Logged

Peter
"Photographic technique is a means to an end, never the end itself."
View my photos at http://www.peteraitken.com
summit68
Newbie
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 17


WWW
« Reply #8 on: June 28, 2012, 06:34:44 PM »
ReplyReply

Well, I have to agree with Slobodan and louoates.  The vast majority of sales I have are framed prints.  As such, I don't add up the cost of framing evertime, I just have one framed price for the size which covers most any frame option.  Ocasionally someone asks for a print, thus the poll...

The problem, in my opinion, with having the ratio too low is when the consumer does not want to pay the framed price, thinks they can buy the print cheaply and have if framed at A Brothers for less money.  In reality, my framing is going to be many times the quality for less than that.

its not like our "art" took us hours and hours and hours...sure it did for the first print...but once the work is done, reprints can be made very cost efficiently, (ie mass produced by machines)  thus the pricing difference between photo art and true original art pieces...ie paintings.

Actually, I've kicked one person out who stood in front of one of mine and said, "Hmm, $XXX.00 for something you can mass produce."  I replied, "Yes, you are right.  It should be more.  Please leave now."

Exactamundo. Few buyers are, I am sorry to say, buying "a work of art." They are buying an attractive rectangular object that will look good over their couch. The rare buyer who really appreciates the artistry of good photography is a treasure. For those of you who make a living from photography (I am not in this category), would you rather have a philistine who writes a check or a true art lover who gives you complements and buys nothing? Hmmm....

Money isn't everything.
Logged
Brad Barr
Newbie
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 20


WWW
« Reply #9 on: June 28, 2012, 07:59:05 PM »
ReplyReply

I am one of those that makes their entire living from photography...pays the mortgage, feeds the family.  So yeah...I get it.  I get that its art..but unless you are selling a limitited edition of one and only one of that print...,.,..its not the same as a painting...never will be. Thus the huge drop in price from original paintings to giclees.....

Quote
The problem, in my opinion, with having the ratio too low is when the consumer does not want to pay the framed price, thinks they can buy the print cheaply and have if framed at A Brothers for less money.  In reality, my framing is going to be many times the quality for less than that.
That shouldnt be a problem as long as you got your happy price for the print.  Where, or even if they choose to get it framed isnt your concern.  If they line their birdcage with it...who cares as long as you got your price...its now theirs to do with as they wish.  And tbh, there are some very talented frame companies out there.  Some not so of course as well, but again, get your price and then just smile and say thank you very much kind sir....

Interesting that you asked the guy to leave.....why exactly?  Could you not articulate why it costs more?  Should be pretty simple.  I do it all the time.  No need to say please leave...just answer the objection.  

Quote
Money isn't everything.
Perhaps not.  Funny though, the only people that throw that saying around tend to have quite a bit of it.


so in answer to the question posed above....I'll take the guy with the check in his hand actually.  I have enough folks who appreciate my art,  I'll take the $$$.  Otherwise, why are you at the show in the first place?  Its a biz right? or are you there just so folks will say oooh wow thats a great shot and chat about it?  No thanks.  Sure it feels good, but if you like it, whip out your wallet there skippy!  Daddy needs a new 600VR!!
« Last Edit: June 28, 2012, 08:05:35 PM by Brad Barr » Logged

Brad
www.bciphoto.com
www.bci-sports.com
www.sportsshooter.com/photobrad

D3s, D3, D300, Nikon: 14-24 2.8, 24-120 f4VR 70-200VRII, 300 2.8, 400 2.8VR; 1.7-TC2, Siggy 50 & 85 1.4's + Spiderholster, D300 IR just for grins.
DeanChriss
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 268


WWW
« Reply #10 on: June 29, 2012, 10:20:29 AM »
ReplyReply

Reading all of this brought up a few points that I wanted to mention:

1. The cost of a bare print is not limited to paper and ink. What about the amortization of equipment cost used to capture and print the image? What about the cost of travel to and from wherever the image was captured? What about all the costs involved in trying to get other images that didn't work out? What about proofs and prints you tore up because you didn't like the way they look? All of that and much more are very real costs and need to be taken into account on the balance sheet.

2. Charging only for framing materials and not for the skilled labor involved in a framing job is very charitable but it doesn't make sense from a business perspective. I wish my mechanic would only charge for the parts used in repairing my car, but he's not that charitable either.

3. As far as the direct cost of materials goes, framing materials are certainly more expensive than anything else. Mat cutting, mounting, and framing also takes a lot of time and skilled labor that needs to be compensated. This all means that framed prints have a lower profit margin than matted prints, and matted prints have a lower profit margin than bare prints. Why would anyone be disturbed if a client doesn't want your frame when there's a bigger margin on a bare or matted print?

4. If you sell framed prints through galleries you need to make sure to account for the commission in the incremental costs of matting and framing. If you don't you can end up making less on a framed piece than on an unframed piece even though the framed piece sells at a higher price! Also worth mentioning is that it's unethical and self-destructive to undercut gallery pricing when selling at other venues like art festivals. Galleries have big costs in a building, lighting, heating, air conditioning, and employees. Carrying and promoting your work costs them money. They are due a fair profit in return, just like you are.

5. Yes, most buyers are more concerned about whether a print matches the color of their couch or drapes than they are about all of the "blood, sweat and tears, talent, vision, ability to inspire, move, touch, etc.", but I'm not going to send them packing because of it. You have to realize that most people will not be as serious about what you do as you are. That's the way of life, and art.
Logged

- Dean
Slobodan Blagojevic
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 5536



WWW
« Reply #11 on: June 29, 2012, 12:25:15 PM »
ReplyReply

... You have to realize that most people will not be as serious about what you do as you are. That's the way of life, and art.

Agreed.

However, if you do not value your own "blood, sweat and tears..." more than dead glass/wood/metal, nobody else will.
Logged

Slobodan

Flickr
500px
JMPhoto
Newbie
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 22



WWW
« Reply #12 on: June 29, 2012, 05:49:09 PM »
ReplyReply

I use a set amount for my matting and framing

a print costs x
mat supplies cost y + time to mat
frame costs x +time to frame

pulling this straight off my sheet

20x30 print: 175, matted: 200, framed 250

I have to outsource the printing since I can not print something so large in house, I do all my own matting and framing so the cost is much less. I know my matting isn't supper amazing but 95% of people that see them won't be able to tell a difference

pricing is based on local market assessment. There are numerous other photographers around me selling framed 'fine art' 8x10's for 25 bucks
Logged

summit68
Newbie
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 17


WWW
« Reply #13 on: July 02, 2012, 10:49:23 PM »
ReplyReply

Funny though, the only people that throw that saying around tend to have quite a bit of it.

Wow, a little presumptuous.  Then again, it was almost bait as I kinda knew that someone would post that as I was typing it.
Actually I live paycheck to paycheck.  I just make choices that allow me to live the way I want to.

Interesting that you asked the guy to leave.....why exactly?  Could you not articulate why it costs more?  Should be pretty simple.  I do it all the time.  No need to say please leave...just answer the objection. 

It was pretty clear that this guy was not going to get it.  There has to be some respect.  I wouldn't go into a restaurant and say, "Beef only costs $5.00 a pound.  Why are you charging $20.00 for this steak?"

5. Yes, most buyers are more concerned about whether a print matches the color of their couch or drapes than they are about all of the "blood, sweat and tears, talent, vision, ability to inspire, move, touch, etc.", but I'm not going to send them packing because of it. You have to realize that most people will not be as serious about what you do as you are. That's the way of life, and art.

This is the second time I've heard that.  Perhaps I have had a completely different experience then everyone else, but the overwhelming number of clients I have are actually moved by the art, and not the living room decor.  Anyway, thanks for the poll responses.
Logged
bill t.
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 2693


WWW
« Reply #14 on: July 03, 2012, 06:23:20 PM »
ReplyReply

Another approach is this: "the frame is a free gift from the artist for your convenience.  You are paying only for the art.  We will be happy to remove the frame at your request.  But the price is the same."

Has a certain back-door snob appeal.  And it deflects the sale away from getting hung up on the frame itself, which can now be viewed as temporary.  The biggest risk of framing is that while it adds value in most cases, it also adds something not to love.

Have I had the guts to try that?  Noooo!  But it's not uncommon at high end galleries.
Logged
Mike Guilbault
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 815



WWW
« Reply #15 on: July 26, 2012, 08:39:31 PM »
ReplyReply

I like the way you think Bill. 
Logged

Mike Guilbault
MG Photography
framah
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 1177



« Reply #16 on: August 07, 2012, 07:05:43 PM »
ReplyReply

..which is a good reason to frame your stuff simply so that the customer doesn't get the feeling they are paying so much for the frame that they might not be so inclined to reframe it when they get it home.

If the frame is a simple frame... like a plain black metal... they are more likely think  it is only temporary for selling purposes and are more willing to go ahead and buy your art and when they get home, have me put a really good frame that works for both their art AND their home.

It's a game of psychology.

Logged

"It took a  lifetime of suffering and personal sacrifice to develop my keen aesthetic sense."
louoates
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 735



WWW
« Reply #17 on: August 07, 2012, 07:34:41 PM »
ReplyReply

When I walk the street art shows I pay particular attention to the framing by photographers of all skill-levels. My conclusion is that the successful sellers provide professional-looking framing that can be taken home that day and hung in any room with any color scheme. The sellers that rarely show up at the next show have either no framed work showing, cheap-looking frames, or poorly matted and/or framed work. In my experience this generality applies to all photographic skill quality levels.
Logged
Colorado David
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 557



« Reply #18 on: August 07, 2012, 10:10:40 PM »
ReplyReply

I saw the work of a really gifted photographer in Estes Park, CO a couple of weeks ago; http://imagesofrmnp.com/page/prints/

He was showing his work in the gallery with a mounting called DuraPlaq.  The company that does it for him is in Longmont, CO.  I was really taken by the effect.  His photography showed very well with the DutraPlaq (which is a trademark by the way) and the DuraPlaq could be remounted on/in another frame if you so desired.  I plan to print some of my work and send them for the DuraPlaq mounting.
Logged

Pages: [1]   Top of Page
Print
Jump to:  

Ad
Ad
Ad