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Author Topic: A question about copying layers from one image to another in PsCS6  (Read 3435 times)
Ellis Vener
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« on: July 01, 2012, 09:52:40 AM »
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Assuming there are no area specific masks it is possible to copy adjustment layers,, from one document to another in Photoshop CS 4/5/6? I am working a on a stitched pan but rather than be working everything out on a a very large (nearly 1Gb) full resolution version file, can the color adjustments be worked out on either a smaller version, a crop out of the composite,  or on an individual frame that is is being used in the composite?
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Ellis Vener
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dmerger
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« Reply #1 on: July 01, 2012, 10:16:23 AM »
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This video from West Coast Imaging may be of some help.  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-0cog-1jyDE&list=UUxkpQbRQ9kIuZ86M9lZicoQ&index=3&feature=plcp
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Dean Erger
Ellis Vener
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« Reply #2 on: July 01, 2012, 10:26:22 AM »
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Thanks Dean!
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Ellis Vener
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Ellis Vener
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« Reply #3 on: July 01, 2012, 10:34:21 AM »
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Here's the link for part 2: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-UNXJdTQKuw&feature=BFa&list=UUxkpQbRQ9kIuZ86M9lZicoQ
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Ellis Vener
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Ellis Vener
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« Reply #4 on: July 03, 2012, 10:19:01 PM »
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Hi Dean,
I just tried (multiple times) the technique described in the WCI videos and it isn't working.

I have two images: the original full resolution version (Calling it BASE)  and the smaller GUIDE version.

My Guide file has seven adjustment layers, three of which are clipping masks on the first adjustment layer.  The first adjustment layer and the three clipping mask layers associated with it are not resizing to the correct resolution when I interpolate the guide file up to the size of the BASE image and then insert the BASE image in place of the GUIDE file background layer.
About that troublesome adjustment layer and its clipping masks. It was created by making a new empty layer and then filling it by using the Apply Image  command with one of the RGB channels from the Background layer. The associated clipping masks are also created using an R,G, or B channel from the background.
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Ellis Vener
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Creating photographs for advertising, corporate and industrial clients since 1984.
Rhossydd
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« Reply #5 on: July 04, 2012, 01:00:11 AM »
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Maybe I'm missing something here, but why not just work on a small copy and save your adjustment layers as presets ? Then you can load them onto any file and delete when finished.

All the resizing business mentioned in the videos is only needed when working with masks etc, which in your OP isn't required.
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Ellis Vener
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« Reply #6 on: July 04, 2012, 05:19:40 AM »
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Maybe I'm missing something here, but why not just work on a small copy and save your adjustment layers as presets ? Then you can load them onto any file and delete when finished.

All the resizing business mentioned in the videos is only needed when working with masks etc, which in your OP isn't required.
Thank you for your contribution to the discussion Rhossydd. As it happens there are masks involved which is why making a preset won't work. I had already tried that approach.

Attached is a screenshot of the layer stack.
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Ellis Vener
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BartvanderWolf
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« Reply #7 on: July 04, 2012, 05:42:24 AM »
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As it happens there are masks involved which is why making a preset won't work.

Hi Ellis,

Masks are pixel based. That implies that when the GUIDE version is upsampled, the masks lose accuracy. Using BiCubic smoother as algorithm only partially helps. Selections defined as Paths, stand a better chance, but the fine level of smoothing still can only be done accurately at full resolution.

Cheers,
Bart
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Ellis Vener
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« Reply #8 on: July 04, 2012, 07:38:06 AM »
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Hi Bart,
Thanks for helping. I understand that and I can go back and refine the masks later. What I think is goign on has to do with the layers that retain their heavily interpolated appearance has to do with their contents being created by the Apply Image command and they are still relating to the Guide Image's background layer.  Do you think it could be the Layer Blend mode they are being applied in?

The upper layers also have masks and yet they have the full resolution of the original image..
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Ellis Vener
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BartvanderWolf
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« Reply #9 on: July 04, 2012, 08:09:09 AM »
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Hi Bart,
Thanks for helping. I understand that and I can go back and refine the masks later. What I think is goign on has to do with the layers that retain their heavily interpolated appearance has to do with their contents being created by the Apply Image command and they are still relating to the Guide Image's background layer.

I'm not completely clear on what the layers are supposed to do, but if they are not adjustment layers (which are pixel dimensionless), but rather low res mixed channel versions after upscaling, then they will suffer from upscaling artifacts that will carry over to the underlying High res image.

The proposed workflow only works on dimensionless/global adjustment layers. The masks are also made up from pixels, and indeed require redoing or blurring after the upsampling if they were created in the low res GUIDE version.

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Do you think it could be the Layer Blend mode they are being applied in?

No, not specifically. It's the layers content itself that was upsampled with pixel artifacts.

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The upper layers also have masks and yet they have the full resolution of the original image..

As far as I can see, only the top layer looks like an 'adjustment layer' in the Photoshop sense, without fixed pixel dimensions. All other layers look like pixel/raster image layers, but I can't see at which resolution each is rendered.

Cheers,
Bart
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Ellis Vener
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« Reply #10 on: July 04, 2012, 08:11:19 AM »
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Your insight is much appreciated.
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Ellis Vener
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dmerger
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« Reply #11 on: July 04, 2012, 12:12:29 PM »
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Ellis, when in your workflow does the problem first manifest itself?  If it is upon deleting the “background” layer, after deleting the “background” layer, try changing the name of “Layer 1” to “Background”.   Not sure this will solve your problem, but may be worth a try.

If your problem manifests itself before you copy you master file into you re-sized guide file, then the problem is not likely related to the guide file method, but rather has something to do with PS.

As far as masks and up-sizing are concerned, I usually don’t see a problem since masks are more easily up-scaled than image content.  As has been noted, however, if you see a mask problem upon up-sizing, it should be a relatively minor task to tweak the mask.
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Dean Erger
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« Reply #12 on: July 04, 2012, 03:46:23 PM »
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Thank you Dean for coming back to my question.


"when in your workflow does the problem first manifest itself?"
I assume you mean after when does it first manifest itself after bringin in the layer from the full resolution (base) image as before then everything in the interpolated guide image looks heavily interpolated (i.e., fuzzy). It shows up as soon as I import that base layer.

"If it is upon deleting the “background” layer, after deleting the “background” layer, try changing the name of “Layer 1” to “Background”."

Hmm, I will  try that.

"If your problem manifests itself before you copy you master file into you re-sized guide file, then the problem is not likely related to the guide file method, but rather has something to do with PS."

I have thought about that too.

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Ellis Vener
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Ellis Vener
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« Reply #13 on: July 04, 2012, 04:10:17 PM »
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I tried deleting the GUIDe imdocument's  Background layer and then renaming  the imported full resolution layer to background but that had no effect. It was worth a shot.

The problem is definitely in that first layer, the one called Red.

The problem is not a substantial one as I have taken good notes about which settings on each layer work best, but I thought I might be able to save some time by working things out on a smaller Guide image first.

Oh well.
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Ellis Vener
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digitaldog
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« Reply #14 on: July 04, 2012, 04:30:49 PM »
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IF you are dragging and dropping adjustment layers without a layer mask, you don’t need to do any resizing or interpolation to make the two documents match. You can drag and drop say a Hue/Sat adjustment layer (again, NO mask) from a 5x7@300 onto an 8x10@300 no problem.
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Andrew Rodney
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Ellis Vener
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« Reply #15 on: July 05, 2012, 09:37:52 PM »
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I have tried the process on a fresh image just to make sure there wasn't something screwy about the image file (a very large panoramic) I have been working with and the interpolation issue is still there.

Here is a complete description of what I am doing so you verify or comment on my findings.

A1) Open the full resolution image in Photoshop CS6 (whether using JPEG, TIFF, PSD or PSB format does not matter).

A2) Duplicate the image (Image > Duplicate). Duplicate is named Guide.

A3) reduce the size of the guide file by reducing  the number of pixels to 25% of the original using Image > Image Size . In other words if the original is 4000 x 6000 pixels  the guide is resized to 1000 x 1500 pixels. 

A4) In the guide image, in the layers palette,  create a new layer

A5) Fill this new layer using Apply Image (Image > Apply Image) with  whichever of the R, G or B channels of the Background layer has the best monochrome contrast.  name it whatever you want, but it helps to name it the color channel you used so Red, Blue or Green are appropriate names. As  I am using the Red Channel so in this example this layer is named "Red".

A6) Resize this guide image to the original image's pixel dimensions. If you look at this image now at 100% you will see that the Guide image is cover with interpolation artifacts.

A7) Return to the original and in its layer palette click on the only layer there, the background. While Holding down the shift key drag the original's background layer to the Guide file and drop (by releasing the mouse button but not the shift key ) this layer into Guide's  layer stack. Move this layer  down to just above the layer named Background.

At this point there are three layers in the Guide Image. From top to bottom they are  Background, Layer 1, and Red. If it all worked as the WCI video indicated  then there should be no interpolation, but I am still seeing it, even if I delete Guide's background layer and rename layer 1 background.

B) To see if the effect was happening if other adjustments were made a fresh duplicate (Guide 2) of the original was created and resized ( steps B2,B3 mirroring A2, A3)

B4) Created a Curves adjustment layer from the Adjustments palette, whacked the curve a bit to exaggerate the differences between the original and Guide 2.

B5) resize Guide 2 as per A6

B6) Drag the Original file's background layer over to Guide 2's layer stack as in A7. The layer stack is now (from bottom to top) Background, Layer 1, Curves.

In this case there are no interpolation artifacts.

This leads me to conclude that  the pixel dimensions in the layers using the Apply Image command are locked to  the starting dimensions of the Background layer in a file while other adjustment layers are more "free" of pixel dimensions.

Katrin Eismann has suggested that using Smart Objects may get around the up/down interpolation issues. That approach will be tried tomorrow.







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Ellis Vener
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dmerger
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« Reply #16 on: July 06, 2012, 10:16:18 AM »
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Ellis, here is my best guess about what’s happening.  It appears that your Red layer is a pixel layer.  In other words, your Red layer is an image created from the low res guide image.  When you up-size the guide file, you also up-size the Red layer.  Both layers show interpolation artifacts.  When you later bring in your original image, it has no effect on the Red layer since it no longer is dependent on the layers beneath it in your layer stack.  For example, even before you bring in your original layer, modifying your background layer will not change your Red layer.  (The overall image may change, reflecting the change to the background layer, but the Red layer itself won’t change.) 

If I’m correct, then you’ll need to re-do your Red layer.  In other words, in your example, put your original image, layer 1, just above the Red layer (other layers such as your curves layer should be above Layer 1).  Now, create a new Red layer above layer 1 using the same settings you used to make the original Red layer, but your Apply Image should apply layer 1, not the background layer. At this point, you can delete the original Red layer and the background layer.  If you later want to use a PS plug-in that requires a background layer, such as PhotoKit Sharpener, you can rename your layer 1 as Background (at least this trick works for PhotoKit Sharpener).

Instead of dragging your original into your up-sized guide file, you could drag your non-pixel, up-sized adjustment layers onto your original, if it suits you needs better.   (Note Andrew Rodney’s comment above if you don’t have masks.) Of course, you’d still need to recreate your other pixel based adjustment layers.
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Dean Erger
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« Reply #17 on: July 06, 2012, 10:27:46 AM »
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Ellis, here is my best guess about what’s happening.  It appears that your Red layer is a pixel layer.  In other words, your Red layer is an image created from the low res guide image.  When you up-size the guide file, you also up-size the Red layer.  Both layers show interpolation artifacts.  When you later bring in your original image, it has no effect on the Red layer since it no longer is dependent on the layers beneath it in your layer stack. For example, even before you bring in your original layer, modifying your background layer will not change your Red layer.  (The overall image may change, reflecting the change to the background layer, but the Red layer itself won’t change.) 

You are correct about that.

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In other words, in your example, put your original image, layer 1, just above the Red layer (other layers such as your curves layer should be above Layer 1).  Now, create a new Red layer above layer 1 using the same settings you used to make the original Red layer, but your Apply Image should apply layer 1, not the background layer. At this point, you can delete the original Red layer and the background layer...Instead of dragging your original into your up-sized guide file, you could drag your non-pixel, up-sized adjustment layers onto your original, if it suits you needs better.   (Note Andrew Rodney’s comment above if you don’t have masks.) Of course, you’d still need to recreate your other pixel based adjustment layers.

That doesn't work in my particular workflow but thank you for the suggestion.

This really only becomes a computational power issue (in other words: a time factor) when working on really large files. Starting with file sizes that are less than 300mb it is not a real issue with my computer , a lowly late 2009 27" 2.66Ghz quad-core single processor i5 iMac with 16GB of RAM.


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Ellis Vener
http://www.ellisvener.com
Creating photographs for advertising, corporate and industrial clients since 1984.
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