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Author Topic: It's official! Ink jet prints equal or surpass Eastman's dye transfer prints!  (Read 27265 times)
slackercruster
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« on: July 06, 2012, 05:40:35 PM »
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I have completed preliminary tests comparing the finest traditional Eastman Kodak dye transfer prints with machine made dye transfer prints aka as Ink Jet prints. The preliminary tests show the ink jet print to equal or surpass the Eastman's dye transfer print.

I will be sending in a full report within a few weeks. But it wont have dye stability tests done. Those will hopefully be in by Dec. (Although Ctein is not holding his breath, since he says my tests are worse than useless!) But for the rest of you that can see farther than your nose, you may find the report interesting.

If you are not familiar with Eastman's dye transfer process see my earlier post on it:

http://www.pentaxforums.com/forums/digital-processing-software-printing/186305-remembering-dye-transfer-color-printing.html
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michael
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« Reply #1 on: July 06, 2012, 06:33:01 PM »
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"...machine made dye transfer prints"

That's a curious turn of phrase that I don't think I've ever heard before. Especially if it refers to pigment inks, which I expect that it does.

And when you write that these "equal or surpass dye transfer print" are you referring to resolution, light fastness, gamut, contrast? What exactly?

And finally, since Ctein is recognized as the world's finest dy transfer printer (by Kodak themselves), my guess is that if he thinks that your tests are "worse than useless", I'd hesitate to argue with him.

Michael

Oh yes... thanks for making it "official" though.
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slackercruster
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« Reply #2 on: July 06, 2012, 06:48:49 PM »
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Are you serious? Ctein is 'just' a DT printer, not the finest. You had better study up the history of DT printing.

But, if almost no one else is doing DT's. and Ctein is a DT printer, then Ok, maybe since he is the last one doing DT's he can be considered the finest DT printer in the world under that convoluted thinking.

Here is the deal with him Ctein....

Bob Pace  used to tell me the men were separated from the boys when it came to skin tones. You ever see him do DT's of skin tones? Only landscapes and mostly boring ones at that. (but that is a statement of personal taste, so that is my own opinion.)  

I don't put much worth in Ctein. He is too ego driven to see any truth. If it does not come from within him he must be discounted as useless due to his bloated ego.

I will go over it all when I write the report. I will send in photos and scans when the report is done.

Basically I scanned a high grade dye transfer print. Processed the TIFF scan files into 3 exposures with LR. Then turned the 3 images into 1 fused image using Photomatrix. (Now, I'm not talking freaked out tone mapping. I am talking about *invisible* very slight HDR that just adds depth.)

The resulting ink jet print from that 3 into 1 image equaled or surpassed the dye transfer print with IQ. Without the 3 into 1 process, the scan of the dye transfer lacked some depth and transparency. (This again confirms what the knuckleheads tell me I can't do. I can get get some HDR effects from 1 RAW image processed into 3 images with exposure adjustments in PP.)

I used a Canon 5 ink color printer from Walmart that cost $100. I used Epson 4 star pro paper. The printer was set to the highest quality printing setting.

The best way to have done this test would have been to spend a few thousand $$ for the finest Epson printers. Buy the Epson $700 ink packs and run a shootout with  a print made by Bob Pace and use the same the original chrome or negs he used for the DT to make the ink jet print.

But I was not able to do that. So this was what I came up with and the results were astounding...even with a $100 Walmart 5 ink printer. So, if my half ass setup will equal the finest Eastman DT prints I feel very comfortable making this announcement.

Oh, I call ink jet, machine made DT's. That is my name.  Eastmans DT used cyan magenta yellow dyes. Ink jet use the same color dyes and black. I wont argue chemical makeup.
« Last Edit: July 06, 2012, 06:55:20 PM by slackercruster » Logged
michael
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« Reply #3 on: July 06, 2012, 07:44:41 PM »
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Based on your reply, I don't think I have anything further to add. You're simply embarrassing yourself. It would therefore just be a waste of both our time.

Michael

"His photographs and prints are so impressive that Kodak's own dye transfer experts proclaimed that there was no one alive who produced better color prints than Ctein. He has been Kodak's featured photographer at the PMA professional show".

BTW, anyone who isn't familier with who Ctein is can read a bit more here.
« Last Edit: July 07, 2012, 06:39:18 AM by michael » Logged
Richard Man
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« Reply #4 on: December 01, 2012, 01:39:55 AM »
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I have seen many of Ctein's prints in person and own a couple small ones. I don't know if he's the best Dye Transfer printer ever, but the print qualities are nothing short of amazing.
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Deardorff
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« Reply #5 on: December 03, 2012, 06:33:49 PM »
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Digital types have a nasty habit of stealing tried and true definitions from photo history. Dye Transfer prints are a specific process - not inkjets.

Same with Carbon prints - not inkjets.

So, no matter how good they are(and many are excellent) give it time and its own name for the processes.

As far as "official" goes. Let's wait a few years and see if they start fading like the infamous YellowDie fiasco of a few years ago. I hope they last. Some digital work is excellent.
« Last Edit: December 03, 2012, 06:36:25 PM by Deardorff » Logged
AFairley
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« Reply #6 on: December 03, 2012, 07:12:46 PM »
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Okaaayyy.  You take an DT print, scan it, manipulate the scan, and print the scanned file on an inkjet printer and then proclaim that the inkjet print is superior to the DT print...  Whatever.
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Kirk Gittings
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« Reply #7 on: December 03, 2012, 09:38:58 PM »
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Quote
I don't put much worth in Ctein. He is too ego driven to see any truth.

My grandmother used to talk about "the pot calling the kettle black.........."
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Thanks,
Kirk

Kirk Gittings
Architecture and Landscape Photography
WWW.GITTINGSPHOTO.COM

LIGHT+SPACE+STRUCTURE (blog)
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« Reply #8 on: December 11, 2012, 11:06:34 PM »
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All I know is that a dye transfer print made by someone who knows what they're doing is a beautiful thing to behold.

I don't need anything more than that.
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KevinA
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« Reply #9 on: December 29, 2012, 07:18:52 AM »
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Are you serious? Ctein is 'just' a DT printer, not the finest. You had better study up the history of DT printing.

But, if almost no one else is doing DT's. and Ctein is a DT printer, then Ok, maybe since he is the last one doing DT's he can be considered the finest DT printer in the world under that convoluted thinking.

Here is the deal with him Ctein....

Bob Pace  used to tell me the men were separated from the boys when it came to skin tones. You ever see him do DT's of skin tones? Only landscapes and mostly boring ones at that. (but that is a statement of personal taste, so that is my own opinion.)  

I don't put much worth in Ctein. He is too ego driven to see any truth. If it does not come from within him he must be discounted as useless due to his bloated ego.

I will go over it all when I write the report. I will send in photos and scans when the report is done.

Basically I scanned a high grade dye transfer print. Processed the TIFF scan files into 3 exposures with LR. Then turned the 3 images into 1 fused image using Photomatrix. (Now, I'm not talking freaked out tone mapping. I am talking about *invisible* very slight HDR that just adds depth.)

The resulting ink jet print from that 3 into 1 image equaled or surpassed the dye transfer print with IQ. Without the 3 into 1 process, the scan of the dye transfer lacked some depth and transparency. (This again confirms what the knuckleheads tell me I can't do. I can get get some HDR effects from 1 RAW image processed into 3 images with exposure adjustments in PP.)

I used a Canon 5 ink color printer from Walmart that cost $100. I used Epson 4 star pro paper. The printer was set to the highest quality printing setting.

The best way to have done this test would have been to spend a few thousand $$ for the finest Epson printers. Buy the Epson $700 ink packs and run a shootout with  a print made by Bob Pace and use the same the original chrome or negs he used for the DT to make the ink jet print.

But I was not able to do that. So this was what I came up with and the results were astounding...even with a $100 Walmart 5 ink printer. So, if my half ass setup will equal the finest Eastman DT prints I feel very comfortable making this announcement.

Oh, I call ink jet, machine made DT's. That is my name.  Eastmans DT used cyan magenta yellow dyes. Ink jet use the same color dyes and black. I wont argue chemical makeup.

If I thought about this too much my head would either implode or explode, you scanned the dye transfer then made an inkjet? The inkjet could only contain at most the same information as the DT, but in reality it would be much less. So how exactly can it be better?
You now need to reverse the process scan an inkjet and make a DT from that, pointless but it should teach you something.
Have you not got to start with the same image then take it on it's different journeys to at least get an idea of which system you prefer?
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Kevin.
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« Reply #10 on: April 05, 2013, 12:47:16 PM »
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BTW, anyone who isn't familier with who Ctein is can read a bit more here.

He is brilliant, even if he does say so himself. A very modest guy, no doubt.
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theguywitha645d
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« Reply #11 on: April 05, 2013, 12:49:56 PM »
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But for the rest of you that can see farther than your nose, you may find the report interesting.

That is what I love about science. Abuse the audience before you present your findings. It used to simply be called bullying, but now it is the American way.
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