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Author Topic: 192MP Sinarback eXact?  (Read 10470 times)
Sareesh Sudhakaran
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« on: July 15, 2012, 10:48:14 PM »
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Wow, this looks like a really good back...

48MP Dalsa Sensor (12MP up to 192 multi-shot) - 48.0 x 36.0mm
16-bit DNG
ISO 50-800
1/10,000 to 32 second shutter

and it can interface with any camera... http://www.sinar.ch/en/products/digital-backs/144-sinarback-exact
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EricWHiss
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« Reply #1 on: July 15, 2012, 11:05:38 PM »
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Wow - 16 shot!   but only 13 exposures a minute?
Why do all their multishot backs omit the screen?
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FredBGG
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« Reply #2 on: July 15, 2012, 11:50:46 PM »
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They don't have the screen because they need to be mounted on a very very solid camera stand in order to be effective.
This is because the sensor is moved by a very very small amount.
A conventional tripod like one used for location shooting would not be solid enough to keep the micron sensor movements accurate enough.
So this pretty much means you need to be on a studio heavy duty column stand. Those 200 lb giants and on a cement floor.
So being a studio tool the LCD screen would be rather pointless.
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EricWHiss
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« Reply #3 on: July 15, 2012, 11:58:02 PM »
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Fred,
I don't know that's really true.  I mean I have a 16 shot hasselblad back on my Rollei 6008AF and I can sit the camera down on my table at home, no tripod, not locked down, nothing special and it shoots beautiful microstep shots without fuss.   Yes its true that sometimes microshot and multishot can be finicky but nothing like what people make it out to be. Of course if you have a duff camera like the phase mamiya DF then you'll have problems no matter what.      My CF 528 does have a screen btw.   
Eric
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Dustbak
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« Reply #4 on: July 16, 2012, 01:45:18 AM »
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AFAIK, Sinar has the belief that the multishot back should generate the highest quality. Adding a screen adds another heat source which potentially could lead to more noise/less IQ from the back. Also considering you will buy this back to use primarily for its multishot capabilities which can only be done with a computer there is a lesser need for a LCD.
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torger
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« Reply #5 on: July 16, 2012, 02:05:11 AM »
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I would guess omitting the LCD and making it tethered only(?) the development cost and time is lowered greatly, so if 90% would use it in a studio camera and shoot tethered even if it had LCD it seems wise to omit it.

I'd love to have a non-tethered back with a 48 megapixel 36x48mm dalsa sensor, very nice size/pixel count tradeoff I think for a technical camera.
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EricWHiss
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« Reply #6 on: July 16, 2012, 03:11:42 AM »
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Maybe on the Hy6 this would be ok since it can display the histogram on the grip.
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PdF
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« Reply #7 on: July 16, 2012, 03:13:31 AM »
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<<Wow - 16 shot!   but only 13 exposures a minute?>>

13 exposures a minute, of course, but in 1 shot mode (48 Mpix)

PdF
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evgeny
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« Reply #8 on: July 16, 2012, 04:05:00 AM »
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I rather not want to afford that new back right now, but may rethink my desire to sell my Sinar M that now can work with the eXact back. I'm in a doubt.  Roll Eyes
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FredBGG
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« Reply #9 on: July 16, 2012, 04:09:59 AM »
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Fred,
I don't know that's really true.  I mean I have a 16 shot hasselblad back on my Rollei 6008AF and I can sit the camera down on my table at home, no tripod, not locked down, nothing special and it shoots beautiful microstep shots without fuss.   Yes its true that sometimes microshot and multishot can be finicky but nothing like what people make it out to be. Of course if you have a duff camera like the phase mamiya DF then you'll have problems no matter what.      My CF 528 does have a screen btw.   
Eric


Well it will take the shots, but if you think the camera is not going to move a couple of microns... well "may the force be with you". You need very very little for a coffee table to move a couple of microns in a minute or so. Put a runout gauge up against your coffee table and watch the dial move.
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theguywitha645d
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« Reply #10 on: July 16, 2012, 09:47:26 AM »
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They don't have the screen because they need to be mounted on a very very solid camera stand in order to be effective.
This is because the sensor is moved by a very very small amount.
A conventional tripod like one used for location shooting would not be solid enough to keep the micron sensor movements accurate enough.
So this pretty much means you need to be on a studio heavy duty column stand. Those 200 lb giants and on a cement floor.
So being a studio tool the LCD screen would be rather pointless.


If I have told you once, I have told you a billion times, I do not exaggerate. Wink

I use 16-shot cameras on far less than that with far greater magnification than a studio setup would use. The sensor movement is neither here nor there. A stationary camera does not move and cameras do not weigh that much you need to weld them to the floor.
« Last Edit: July 16, 2012, 11:30:06 AM by theguywitha645d » Logged
Kumar
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« Reply #11 on: July 16, 2012, 12:35:17 PM »
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Operating Systems   Mac OS X 10.5.8 and higher
                            Windows operating System

Finally!

Kumar
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EricWHiss
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« Reply #12 on: July 16, 2012, 12:50:32 PM »
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Well it will take the shots, but if you think the camera is not going to move a couple of microns... well "may the force be with you". You need very very little for a coffee table to move a couple of microns in a minute or so. Put a runout gauge up against your coffee table and watch the dial move.

Fred,
Sounds like you may not have very much experience actually working with multishot and microstep backs otherwise you wouldn't be writing that stuff.  How much have you shot with them personally?   I don't have problems with movement and I've shot them in galleries with wooden floors near the street on tiny tripods, in my studio which is actually between two train tracks.     btw - I know several people who use multishot backs on the Fuji gx680iii as well and love them.   

Multishot backs have at least one or two more stops DR and noise free shadows too.

E
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museumbrich4d
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« Reply #13 on: July 16, 2012, 01:02:37 PM »
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I am interested in the new CaptureFlow software that is listed under the characteristics of the back. CaptureShop 6.1 is good but far from great.
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Gigi
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« Reply #14 on: July 16, 2012, 02:34:37 PM »
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Using MLU has only the leaf shutter doing any work - very little stress on the mounting.
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Geoff
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« Reply #15 on: July 16, 2012, 04:26:54 PM »
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Geoff,
That's with cameras like the Hy6 / AFi that use leaf shutter lenses.  Almost no movement.   M/S backs work very well with cameras like the Hy6 and 6008AF.   Focal plane shutter cameras can still work too.   It's also an integration thing - some cameras don't talk to the back and software well enough to allow continuous shooting with the mirror up during all the frames and that can lead to movement.  However that said, once I had my 6008AF configured incorrectly and the mirror cycled between each of the 19 frames needed for microstep and I was still able to successfully shoot microstep using a modest tripod.
Eric
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Gigi
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« Reply #16 on: July 16, 2012, 05:33:01 PM »
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Nothing like real experiences!
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Geoff
FredBGG
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« Reply #17 on: July 16, 2012, 10:48:35 PM »
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Geoff,
That's with cameras like the Hy6 / AFi that use leaf shutter lenses.  Almost no movement.   M/S backs work very well with cameras like the Hy6 and 6008AF.   Focal plane shutter cameras can still work too.   It's also an integration thing - some cameras don't talk to the back and software well enough to allow continuous shooting with the mirror up during all the frames and that can lead to movement.  However that said, once I had my 6008AF configured incorrectly and the mirror cycled between each of the 19 frames needed for microstep and I was still able to successfully shoot microstep using a modest tripod.
Eric


You can get nice images, but you will not get the type of resolution you would get with a tripod that is stable to the micron.
IF one keeps in mind that we are talking about movements of 1/4 of a pixel. That is somewhere between 1 to 2 microns on the subject.
With even a normal lens this means that a movement of 1/10th of a micron of movement left, right, up or down. That is a very very small movement.

You mentioned the Fuji GX 680 that I know very well. It has a very large mirror and it needs to be on a very solid tripod to get the best results even with film.
I particular the GX680 III has more mirror slap than the GX 680. However the GX680 III does not require the photographer to move the mirror up and down manually, but it does slap down and immediately up
after each shutter release.

While I do not use multi shot myself I had long chat with a materials engineer while he was shooting with a Hasselblad Multishot in an industrial setting... I was there to do portraits of one of the execs....

The materials engineer was using the camera to photograph progressive fracturing of high tech composites.
One impact on the composite and then he did several takes and they were inconsistent until he moved over
to using a cut down to size Fatif column stand lowered off the wheels and onto the cement floor. We shot together
for over an hour. I was actually very interested in the materials as I make my own carbon fiber and composite fins for my hollow carbon fiber surfboads that I use for kitesurfing.

Keep in mind he was doing plenty of 100% observation of the files as well as looking at the whole images.
The shots were at about 8 to 10 feet.

He had done comparison tests with regular tripods and the heavy Fatif column to show the difference to his bosses so as to justify buying the
expensive column stand and having it cut down to size to fit in the lab.

The guy was not messing around. Testing materials for chopper blades and jet nose cones.

A similar discussion about how small camera movements (microns) effect false color and Moire came up regarding the d800E.
A wedding photographer said he was getting almost now false color or moire. This was largely due to the fact that he shot hand held.
Even very slight movement was softening his images enough to reduce moire and false colors. With really high pixel densities micro movements that would not have affected us in the past today do.

I also remember years ago at the studio of a very good but slighly nutty still life photographer. Clients like IBM, Olivetti, HP etc.
He loved to blast Deep Purple as loud as hell... he was quite def... but when it came to releasing the shutter the music would be turned off.
Bass in the music was shaking his 8x10 around.
« Last Edit: July 17, 2012, 01:09:34 AM by FredBGG » Logged
EricWHiss
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« Reply #18 on: July 16, 2012, 11:25:50 PM »
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Fred,
I use multishot not daily but at least once a week.  I have a 10ft Foba salon stand in my studio and no I don't see much difference between a M/S done on it or a lightweight tripod. In fact if there is movement you don't get an image at all - the software cancels the shot - so i'd wager that the ones that worked with the camera sitting on my table are just as sharp as if they were on the Foba.   I shoot Rollei 6008AF and Hy6 not the Fuji, though I am interested in picking one of those up for the movements. You might recall us e-mailing about them a few months back?
Anyhow, trust me the M/S backs are quite useful and the file quality from even the older backs is simply astounding.   I also own an 80mp Leaf back for my AFi and though Yair will jump in soon to point out the usability is better with the single shot, the MS backs win on tonality and depth and for lack of a better word, texture.  The MS backs pick up subtle things.  If you shoot a shot of a dollar bill, the high pixel count backs will pick up every line or dot of ink, ever red and blue fiber, but the M/S backs will get those plus the fingerprints on the bill that you didn't see before. Looking at fine detail/high frequency, the single shot backs will capture the high contrast stuff but the MS backs will get all the low contrast stuff.    Shoot a peach with a MS back.  It's not just orange, its got tiny yellow spots and little hairs and goes from orange yellow brown.  You see more depth to the image.   You can talk to all kinds of tech's and sales guys but until you work with the files yourself you just won't see it.

Anyhow, that's why i am excited to see a new back with both 4 and 16 shot modes.  I think this is great!  *but I still wish they had a screen.  Why not give the user an option to turn it off for higher quality if it makes that much difference?

Eric
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locpham
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« Reply #19 on: July 17, 2012, 12:41:34 AM »
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Anyhow, that's why i am excited to see a new back with both 4 and 16 shot modes.  I think this is great!  *but I still wish they had a screen.  Why not give the user an option to turn it off for higher quality if it makes that much difference?

Eric


If they would just give us one with a nice screen.  If there was the additonal option of a single shot and the option to turn if off for higher quality, that would be a big difference to me.
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