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Author Topic: 192MP Sinarback eXact?  (Read 8988 times)
henrikfoto
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« Reply #20 on: July 17, 2012, 02:17:45 AM »
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Wow! This is my biggest supprice this year! I was sure Sinar had made their last back.
I have been wishing for a new 16-shot back for years. This is great news!!!

Have anyone seen a price?

Henrik
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Dick Roadnight
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« Reply #21 on: July 17, 2012, 05:29:43 AM »
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While I do not use multi shot myself I had long chat with a materials engineer while he was shooting with a Hasselblad Multishot in an industrial setting... I was there to do portraits of one of the execs....

The materials engineer was using the camera to photograph progressive fracturing of high tech composites.
One impact on the composite and then he did several takes and they were inconsistent until he moved over
to using a cut down to size Fatif column stand lowered off the wheels and onto the cement floor.
I have an 88Mpx multi-shot (Sinar 54H, £2k!) as well as a 60 Mpx H4D-60.

My neighbour works for a Formula 1 racing team, and has given me broken test pieces of carbon fibre and sintered titanium to photograph for my portfolio.

I was thinking of using the Sinar rail as an optical bench... so the subject, lens and camera were all attached to the rail, and tripod movement would make no difference?

I have about 2m of Sinar rail, and I can use P2 bellows to extend the P3 (using 2 P2 to P3 conversion bellows)... but I would need a special cable to use P2 bellows on the Sinar multi-shot, which is designed for the EL (wired) bellows.
« Last Edit: July 17, 2012, 05:33:51 AM by Dick Roadnight » Logged

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FredBGG
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« Reply #22 on: July 17, 2012, 10:01:13 AM »
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@ Dick

Yup your going the right way about it form a scientific point of view.

For custom digital back cable check out Kapture group.  WWW.KaptureGroup.com

They can pretty much make you whatever you need.
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theguywitha645d
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« Reply #23 on: July 17, 2012, 10:44:22 AM »
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You can get nice images, but you will not get the type of resolution you would get with a tripod that is stable to the micron.
IF one keeps in mind that we are talking about movements of 1/4 of a pixel. That is somewhere between 1 to 2 microns on the subject.
With even a normal lens this means that a movement of 1/10th of a micron of movement left, right, up or down. That is a very very small movement.

Are you sure you know how a multi-shot back works? There is only a 1/2 pixel shift. How do you get 1 to 2 microns on the subject? A 5 micron pixel would translate to about 29 microns on a subject taken with a 55mm lens at an object distance of 50cm.

I use 16-shot backs on microscopes. You are completely overblowing the problem of getting sharp images.
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PdF
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« Reply #24 on: July 17, 2012, 04:14:59 PM »
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I work for years with Sinar multishot backs. Two points are essential. First, a perfectly uniform lighting during the all process. The flashes must be first class. Then, a very strong fixation of the camera (a big Sinar P2, with its large SinarCam 2 shutter). When it is possible, I remove a large Foba column stand to make shots over several days (in the industrial field, or in reproduction of works of art), I do not deny. If I have to work out of my studio with a (heavy) tripod (it is more usual), I always assure my P2 with a Magic Arm and weights to optimise the stability.

Any tiny movement, or the slightest difference in illumination is paid cash: the image is embossed ("gaufrée", in French). Each image must be checked in details on the screen of the Mac before giving an OK.

The work is long and difficult, but the result is SO MUCH better than I do not deny. The 16 shots mode, when it is OK, gives real satisfaction. The files are bigger, more rich, and without any moiré. Colours are much accurate, particularly in the neutral zones.

Of course, working in the studio is more easy, fast and sure. Everything is OK. I hate to move my material outside...

PdF
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Steve Hendrix
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« Reply #25 on: July 17, 2012, 10:26:57 PM »
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It appears that this is the identical 48MP Dalsa sensor that is utilized in the Sinar 86H, which captures full size single and 4 shot files. But for the eXact, it seems 2 compressed modes have been added, as well as the return of the 16 shot capture that originated in the SinarBack 23HR and was maintained through the Sinarback 54H. This is likely in response to the vertical market demands that SinarBacks are - for the most part - utilized in and still produce a demand. And also brings them into the game with Hasselblad as well with their 50MP 6 shot captures.

Yes, it would be nice if they offered an LCD version, but it is not as simple as - just putting an LCD screen into a digital back with an on/off switch. There is a considerable amount of developmental resources that come into play getting the operation and results of the LCD to perform at an optimal level. And given that the majority of Sinar's sales are likely cultural archive and reproduction, and product photography, the return for those efforts probably doesn't add up.

True - that 16 shot captures can be accomplished without too much trouble and with proper care. But no reason to not emphasize that there are some careful considerations to keep in mind for best results. And yes, I've captured multi-shot with many different digital backs on many different cameras, including Fuji 680 series cameras.

And Eric, how amazing, you found yet another way to slam the Mamiya/Phase camera in a thread that has nothing to do with it. Congrats!


Steve Hendrix
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« Reply #26 on: July 17, 2012, 11:12:54 PM »
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I rather not want to afford that new back right now, but may rethink my desire to sell my Sinar M that now can work with the eXact back. I'm in a doubt.  Roll Eyes


I don't know if I share that doubt. I believe most of the Sinar Adapters for the 75H work with the 86H, and in that case, there is an M Mount Adapter for the 75H, so since I believe the eXact to be a very close relative to the 86H, just with some added ingredients.....then maybe.


Steve Hendrix
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EricWHiss
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« Reply #27 on: July 18, 2012, 01:33:44 AM »
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And Eric, how amazing, you found yet another way to slam the Mamiya/Phase camera in a thread that has nothing to do with it. Congrats!


Yes, well Steve its not hard to do!   Roll Eyes    And since you read the forums you'll see that I'm not the only one...  there are a fair number of other posters who also rightly kick this POS to the curb.     That camera is terrible. Why phase has invested so much time and money into that platform has never made any sense to me particularly when there are many better ones out there.  Phase has always had the best software IMHO and some great backs too but the DF is kind of like the ugly duckling of the family.    I do praise Phase for coming out with the art reproduction cameras and hopefully their rumored new camera body will come to fruition and be worthwhile and not just another modest update.   Man Steve, you'll sell a lot of camera bodies if Phase comes out with something even half way decent, and I sincerely hope they do!

Can you tell us why Phase never had a multishot back (at least there are none that I know of)?  Why did Phase drop the scanning backs?
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Dick Roadnight
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« Reply #28 on: July 18, 2012, 04:41:53 AM »
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And Eric, how amazing, you found yet another way to slam the Mamiya/Phase camera in a thread that has nothing to do with it. Congrats!

Steve Hendrix
Yes, well Steve its not hard to do!   Roll Eyes    And since you read the forums you'll see that I'm not the only one...  there are a fair number of other posters who also rightly kick this POS to the curb.     That camera is terrible. Why phase has invested so much time and money into that platform has never made any sense to me particularly when there are many better ones out there.  Phase has always had the best software IMHO and some great backs too but the DF is kind of like the ugly duckling of the family.    I do praise Phase for coming out with the art reproduction cameras and hopefully their rumored new camera body will come to fruition and be worthwhile and not just another modest update.   Man Steve, you'll sell a lot of camera bodies if Phase comes out with something even half way decent, and I sincerely hope they do!

Can you tell us why Phase never had a multishot back (at least there are none that I know of)?  Why did Phase drop the scanning backs?


Would it not be nice if Sinar and Hasselblad had the Sales / PR capability of Phase... or if Phase had the quality of Hasselblad or Sinar?

Sinar make the best (studio) backs but they seem to be in danger of extinction?

Now, if Hasselblad extricated their digits and made their electronic shutter available in standard LF (copal compatible) mounts, and marketed the clip-on battery they promised for the 60Mpx back, and they teamed up with Sinar... but it would never happen, because it would reduce Sinar's sales of their eShutters.
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PdF
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« Reply #29 on: July 18, 2012, 06:16:11 AM »
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The official message of Sinar.

http://http://sinarphotographyag.cmail4.com/t/ViewEmail/r/641B500A814C5B21/0AD9B447DA2D44AA4BD7C9066BE4161D

Good news: different formats are available: 12, 21, 48 and 192 Mpix.

PdF
« Last Edit: July 18, 2012, 06:18:46 AM by PdF » Logged

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Steve Hendrix
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« Reply #30 on: July 18, 2012, 08:58:55 AM »
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Yes, well Steve its not hard to do!   Roll Eyes    And since you read the forums you'll see that I'm not the only one...  there are a fair number of other posters who also rightly kick this POS to the curb.     That camera is terrible. Why phase has invested so much time and money into that platform has never made any sense to me particularly when there are many better ones out there.  Phase has always had the best software IMHO and some great backs too but the DF is kind of like the ugly duckling of the family.    I do praise Phase for coming out with the art reproduction cameras and hopefully their rumored new camera body will come to fruition and be worthwhile and not just another modest update.   Man Steve, you'll sell a lot of camera bodies if Phase comes out with something even half way decent, and I sincerely hope they do!

Can you tell us why Phase never had a multishot back (at least there are none that I know of)?  Why did Phase drop the scanning backs?



Well, you can deal in absolutes like - "that camera is terrible", etc. But you only have to satisfy your ow uses! On the other hand, I have hundreds and hundreds of clients who have a wide variety of applications, needs, desires, requirements, etc. One size does not fit all. Does that camera have shortcomings? Certainly. Does it also have some positives? Absolutely. You don't have to embrace them, but many others do.

I think the shortcomings of the camera are pretty well established, but at the point Hasselblad pulled their camera platform off the open market, there was one viable platform remaining, which was the Mamiya platform. (yes, I know, the Hy6, but perhaps Phase did not feel like sticking their neck out quite as far as Leaf and Sinar did - perhaps to their credit).

Why no multi-shot for Phase? I wasn't there at the beginning, so this is only conjecture on my part, but I believe their intention was to create the most photographic-like experience for their customers (rather than scanner on a camera) with the best quality single shot capture on the market and the simplest method of use. And at that time, I believe they were out in front. It seemed to work for them. Over time, the difference between single shot and multi-shot quality has diminished significantly.

Scanning backs?   Roll Eyes


Steve Hendrix
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Dick Roadnight
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« Reply #31 on: July 18, 2012, 09:39:44 AM »
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...at the point Hasselblad pulled their camera platform off the open market, there was one viable platform remaining, which was the Mamiya platform.

Steve Hendrix
Capture Integration
It is a pity that both Hasselblad and Sinar "shot themselves in the foot" by not being the standard connection anymore... by trying to secure a slice of the MF market they put people off getting into MF, and reduce the market for MFD.
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PdF
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« Reply #32 on: July 18, 2012, 09:56:41 AM »
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<<Over time, the difference between single shot and multi-shot quality has diminished significantly>>

Multishoot backs are always better, because a true separation of colours is a reality.
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PdF
Steve Hendrix
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« Reply #33 on: July 18, 2012, 10:05:21 AM »
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<<Over time, the difference between single shot and multi-shot quality has diminished significantly>>

Multishoot backs are always better, because a true separation of colours is a reality.


I am not debating that. But as someone who has sold multi-shot solutions from the 6 megapixel days and forward, I am saying that there is no question the difference in quality between single and multi shot has diminished. The difference between a single shot 11 or 16 megapixel image and the equivalent multi-shot was huge. The difference still exists today with 48/50 megapixels, but is nowhere near as substantial.


Steve Hendrix
Capture Integration
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lance_schad
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« Reply #34 on: July 18, 2012, 10:34:41 AM »
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The official message of Sinar.

http://http://sinarphotographyag.cmail4.com/t/ViewEmail/r/641B500A814C5B21/0AD9B447DA2D44AA4BD7C9066BE4161D

Good news: different formats are available: 12, 21, 48 and 192 Mpix.

PdF

So what does the different formats mean? Is this back going to do some sort of pixel binning?

Lance
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PdF
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« Reply #35 on: July 18, 2012, 10:56:55 AM »
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The original file is 48 Mpix big (1 shot or 4 shots). The 16 shots mode gives 192 Mpix.

Are the littles files (12 or 21 Mpix) a division of ordinary 48 Mpix files ? Does the multishots (4 x) work in little files ?
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PdF
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« Reply #36 on: July 18, 2012, 11:53:10 AM »
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The original file is 48 Mpix big (1 shot or 4 shots). The 16 shots mode gives 192 Mpix.

Are the littles files (12 or 21 Mpix) a division of ordinary 48 Mpix files ? Does the multishots (4 x) work in little files ?


Could be binning or perhaps a compression mode. Not clear how it affects ISO performance, but probably increase capture rate.

By the way, as I suspected, the eXact does indeed utilize the same adapters that the 75-H and 86-H use. So, potentially, any cameras those digital backs are compatible with would follow suit with the eXact.


Steve Hendrix
Capture Integration
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« Reply #37 on: July 18, 2012, 01:18:37 PM »
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Where's Thierry when you need him?  Wink
Just kidding but it would be nice to have a sinar presence on the forums to answer these questions that have come up:

1) Are the smaller file size the result of software binning or hardware binning or a selection of the raw data?
2) Why no screen
3) New software
4) General stability of the company
5) Is this just a reuse of the same sensor and old 54h parts?

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Dick Roadnight
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« Reply #38 on: July 18, 2012, 05:06:24 PM »
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I work for years with Sinar multishot backs. Two points are essential. First, a perfectly uniform lighting during the all process. The flashes must be first class...
PdF
A good six light Broncolour flash system might be great - at £20k... so I have been thinking about LED lighting? ... anyone use it?

The Schott system looks good at about £2k, so I am thinking about medical LED lights, or cheap LED flood lights, preferably with a specified Kelvin Colour temperature?

What about the Welch Allyn GS Exam Light IV?
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henrikfoto
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« Reply #39 on: July 18, 2012, 05:27:48 PM »
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A good six light Broncolour flash system might be great - at £20k... so I have been thinking about LED lighting? ... anyone use it?

The Schott system looks good at about £2k, so I am thinking about medical LED lights, or cheap LED flood lights, preferably with a specified Kelvin Colour temperature?

What about the Welch Allyn GS Exam Light IV?

Flickerfree fluorecent lights work great. And they are cheap!

Henrik
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