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Author Topic: How durable should a properly coated stretched canvas be?  (Read 2243 times)
darlingm
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« on: July 27, 2012, 12:36:50 AM »
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My most popular combination has been Breathing Color Lyve & Timeless Matte.  I haven't been happy with how durable my product winds up being.  I roll it on, and have tried variations of one, two, and three coats.  I did some comparison with Glamour II Matte, and it may be slightly more scratch resistant, but it was a small difference if at all.  Black Diamond Satin Canvas & ECO PrintShield or Timeless or Glamour II perform better, as expected out of a satin or gloss canvas.  Can't wait to see what Crystalline is like, and if it's as durable as they say it is.  I'm honestly considering using a satin or gloss canvas with photo black ink and using a matte varnish to kill the gloss when a customer wants matte, to pick up the extra durability.

I've been interested in spraying, but am still working out the logistics of how to do that at home.



Should a fingernail purposely dragged at a 90 degree angle leave a scratch?  (Using a medium pressure.)

Is there a canvas/coating combo that can take a glancing blow from the sharp edge on scissors?

Is there a canvas/coating combo that you'll never see the corner points flake off?

Should pushing on the canvas leave dents where it hits the stretcher bars?
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Paul2660
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« Reply #1 on: July 27, 2012, 10:57:33 AM »
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I can't speak to a matte finish/coating as I have never used one.  Matte by nature is a lot more
susceptible to scratches and BC's Timeless matte may be more fragile than their glossy or satin finishes. 

However I use Lyve/with Timeless glossy and Crystalline (I am an early adopter of Crystalline). 

Lyve/Timeless gloss to me is basically indestructible. Once the coating is dry (I spray usually 3 coats on Lyve)
you can pretty much do any of the things you mention in your post.   I have not had any corner rubs or scratching issues
either during stretching or after and the print is on display or being moved around for a show.

Crystalline, very good canvas I have used it since March 2011/only Glossy.  The canvas itself is very durable, and unless
you really work hard it will not scratch or scuff during a stretching.  Corner rubs are rare but can occur if you are aggressive
during the stretching.  I have yet to see any face scratching ever.

If you are going to mount the Crystalline to Gator or another substrate, I would recommend coating Crystalline with timeless, usually
a standard 2 pass spray works fine.  This is because the process I use to mount Crystalline on Gator involves more pressure on the face
of the canvas and it's possible put slight scratches on the face.  Also since I mostly use Miracle Muck a as glue, there are times that a bit
of muck gets on the face of the print during mounting.  Using a moist rag to wipe off the muck can remove the ink off of Crystalline.  So
it's best to coat this canvas first.

Paul
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rgvsdigitalpimp
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« Reply #2 on: June 05, 2013, 12:48:58 PM »
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I use Lyve and Timeless Satin as my combination and no matter how many coats I put on I will STILL see a scratch on the surface.  When I wipe down canvas of any small dust particles with my left hand I'll forget I have my wedding ring on and I'll see a line going across where I ran my hand over.  And it stays on there. 
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Jim Bradshaw
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« Reply #3 on: June 10, 2013, 04:09:31 PM »
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I use PremierArt's Generations Satin Canvas coated with 3 coats of their Eco Print Shield. The combination seems to be extremely durable. Even where the corners are folded, there is no flaking off of the ink. I routinely wipe the prints down with a damp cloth - no streaking. One caveat: I have used Eco Print Shield on other types of canvas and the ink has sometimes flaked off because of incompatibility with the canvas. Never has happened with PremierArt's own canvas, so always test the coating with your particular canvas.

Jim 
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NickCroken
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« Reply #4 on: June 18, 2013, 03:13:13 PM »
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I use lyve canvas and timeless satin.  I do two coats with an hvlp gun.  I've had clients knock their prints off of the wall, hit a table and then the floor without any damage at all.  I am not afraid to take a wet towel and wipe down the stretched canvases if they are dirty or get something splashed on them.
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Garnick
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« Reply #5 on: June 18, 2013, 08:18:29 PM »
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For the past 7 years or so I've been using Breathing Color Chromata White matte canvas and Eco Print Shield.  When I started printing on canvas I was using the Premier Art product and liked it a lot, but over time my distributor raised the price, so I tried the BC product and have been using it since.  I like the matte canvas because it seems to absorb the ink better, although it is a bit of a learning curve to figure out how the image is going to look with a glossier finish.  Something you have to develop an eye for I guess.  I use the Eco Print Shield Satin and Gloss coatings.  Two coats of Satin and then the last coat is either Satin or a 50/50 mix of Satin and Gloss.  Of course I also offer the Gloss finish to my customers, but have never done one yet.  I don't like a glossy canvas myself and none of my customers have ever shown much interest in it either. Since I roll on the coatings I also dilute the Print Shield by 20% with distilled water. I don't do the stretching, so I send my customers to a local framer for that part. She has told me that of all of the canvases she stretches mine are the most durable, so perhaps that's some help to the OP. I would suggest however that if you are doing your own stretching it's a good idea after the stretch to apply one more coating at the edges and corners for extra protection.  It's not due to fear of "flaking", but the edges and corners tend to take more abuse than the rest of the surface. I don't charge extra for the coating and three coats can become rather costly, but I feel it's worth it to have satisfied customers. I hope this is helpful.

Gary   
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Rob Reiter
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« Reply #6 on: June 19, 2013, 11:14:19 AM »
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Besides using it for my clients, I also use BC Chromata White canvas, coated with Glamour II glossy coating, applied with a foam roller, for outdoor signage. As such, it is displayed otherwise unprotected from the elements for up to a year at a time. I haven't made any scientific comparisons, but to the viewer, I'd say the images look as good as new, other than the bird droppings...
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rgvsdigitalpimp
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« Reply #7 on: June 19, 2013, 01:05:44 PM »
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The more and more I read about the coating process, the more I'm leaning towards learning how to roll on the coating.  I don't get anything close to the protection you all do when I spray. 
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rgvsdigitalpimp
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« Reply #8 on: July 17, 2013, 12:39:19 AM »
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WOW!  So I got my Clearshield Type C Satin gallon in this week.  Clearshield, where have you been all my life!  What an awesome coat I get.  Super durable.  No scratch marks.  Tough as nails.  I think I found a winner!
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Bullfrog
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« Reply #9 on: July 17, 2013, 10:28:40 AM »
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I use Golden MSA varnish.  You don't roll it - you use a very fine brush or spray (I'm not set up to spray) .  Its not bullet proof in terms of durability - I had a "test piece" and just now ran my finger nail down it and it visibly scratched - but you can wipe off with a damp cloth without streaks.

I have an oil canvas (original painting not a photograph) and when you feel the texture of the oil canvas and compare it to the Golden varnished photographic print -its very close to the same save the fact the oil canvas has a palpable texture from brush strokes.

It looks very much like an oil canvas as the varnish is a clear acrylic resin.  It is dramatic in gloss - and since many of my images are very contemporary, I favour that finish.

It has an amazing Dmax and is very resilient to environment and sunlight fading and since it is not water based, I have never had a problem applying it directly on to the canvas (no bleeding of colour)  - but - and this is something I need to call Golden about - its not bomb proof.

I have found one problem which is giving me pause - and that is the fact in extreme heat - it may get "sticky" on the sides when you attempt to pick it up - which is a deal breaker if I'm exhibiting in outdoor art shows where the images are outdoors in a tent.  It could be remedied with floating frames - but I will need to put one outdoors today and see how it fares.

Speaking for myself, I'm not sold at this point that durability of canvas is the ultimate goal, and barring basic handing expectations, I have felt that buyers want an image that is more realistic of a painting.  I would need to see examples, but based on what I have been shown, (Eco Print shield as one example) the finish was rubbery looking - and this doesn't appeal to me.

All this to say, it may be back to the drawing board, and I've book marked this thread.  It was near impossible to find a dealer to sell me Clearshield a couple years ago - perhaps they have improved their distribution.  
« Last Edit: July 17, 2013, 10:42:03 AM by Bullfrog » Logged
Dan Berg
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« Reply #10 on: July 17, 2013, 11:11:24 AM »
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If it was rubbery looking it was more then likely sprayed or rolled incorrectly.(As in too much finish)
3 sprayed light coats of Timeless you should be able to still see and feel the texture. (I am using BC Lyve)
2 sprayed coats of Glamor II equals the 3 of Timeless. It is slightly thicker. At least my mixture.
If you start to see the texture disappear its time to stop.
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Bullfrog
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« Reply #11 on: July 17, 2013, 11:24:30 AM »
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If it was rubbery looking it was more then likely sprayed or rolled incorrectly.(As in too much finish)
3 sprayed light coats of Timeless you should be able to still see and feel the texture. (I am using BC Lyve)
2 sprayed coats of Glamor II equals the 3 of Timeless. It is slightly thicker. At least my mixture.
If you start to see the texture disappear its time to stop.
Thanks.  
 
First, I'm not set up to spray - so its rolled on.

Second, I use Canon inks -and it literally rolled on like sandpaper.  I recall being told to just lightly roll over with no pressure - and even without applying any - the roller was stuck... and this was in summer in high humidity in my basement (which I have air conditioning).  However I was getting advice from a local photographer who used the Eco Shield product on his Epsom prints in the same climate - and he had no problems rolling it on beyond stating some bleed.

I applied it based on instruction (to use sparingly and barely cover) and beyond being rubbery it left "spots" everywhere.   From what I learned phoning around at the time - Epsom inks work better with these products.   They also told me it was more difficult in Canada in the winter because we don't have the humidity (which is kind of a deal breaker considering we only have 3 months of summer).

Maybe I'm using that as an excuse (smile) but I tried a couple of jugs - and many prints and the stuff looked awful and given the fact I wasn't seeing improvement, I decided it wasn't worth continuing.  

I could not find Clearshield in Ontario (Toronto area).
 
Anyway, I did see it finished in a pro's gallery (he sprayed) but my memory has faded - that was 3 or 4 years ago, and I would have to go out and see it again to measure quality.

I just put my Golden varnished canvas out in the bleeding sun - its 32C and with humidex 46C today.  So far the thing is fine (ie not sticky to pick up).

I didn't try Breathing Colour -there was at the time I investigated problems with the product (based on internet posts) and I opted to go another route.  Maybe that was my mistake.

I note from other poster's comments its also the canvas - and that may be the other big factor.  At the time, I could not find profiles for the canvas they recommended - and this seemed to be another limitation buying the Canon printer.  (I have the 6100)

It may make sense to revisit BC and their canvas options now- I confess starting over is not attractive since I've spent countless hours perfecting this Golden finish (perfecting of course meaning its not acceptable if it gets sticky in extreme humidity or heat and (worse case) leaves finger prints if you pick it up Roll Eyes
« Last Edit: July 17, 2013, 11:42:59 AM by Bullfrog » Logged
Dan Berg
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« Reply #12 on: July 17, 2013, 01:05:11 PM »
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Timeless varnish biggest attribute is the quick drying time.
Spray 3 coats in 40 minutes or less. Wait an hour to dry and your ready to stretch or mount.
I usually print my prints let dry through the day and overnight.
Spray in the morning and mountings are done by noon.
A quicker drying product is the Clearstar FA 2000 a spray solvent finish which dries in 5 minutes.
Works great on my flat mount canvas to gatorboard or dibond.
Does not work good at all if stretching. Get cracks in the inks when folded crisply about 100% of the time.
No folds required then its pretty good stuff.
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Bullfrog
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« Reply #13 on: July 17, 2013, 02:28:45 PM »
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Thanks very much for the info Dan.  I appreciate it.
Assuming you provided it in response to my post, I'm in a different category (I think) - where time is not so much a factor.  I investigated spray equipment -  no ROI with my little hobby / mini business.  
However as an update, my test print has been baking in the high heat and humidity and direct sunlight now for 4 hours - and its fine.  No tackiness, no change.  

Golden however is NOT going to dry in 40 minutes - I wait 24 hours between coats - and ideally apply 3 thin coats .  That means 3 days.  Then 2 weeks to cure before wrapping.  Its not a medium for high volume, its a traditional varnish used in acrylic paintings  - and it has limitations that way.  Artists (if I recall correctly) have a much longer process for curing and since Golden originated in that genre, its a paradigm shift for photographers who want to be in a high volume business.

The upside is its completely archival.  Unlike Timeless (or Eco Print shield) you CAN remove layers (very very carefully) - although with photographs, its pretty tricky since you risk damaging the ink layer and not advised.  Still its possible and I've done it

The alternative is to repair by applying another coat - as each new layer applied reactivates the existing layer.  It is in that sense more forgiving.

I admit to many many painful hours to learn the right mixture and technique and will be admittedly hard pressed to walk away from it because I really feel the finish is superior looking.  I think any of these coatings are practice - regardless of medium - its not something people can learn by reading on line.  I really had to just do it - (and yes, Golden Technical support was pretty helpful)

I provide this in the spirit of sharing - not in the spirit of superior knowledge (since I don't pretend to be anyting more than a devoted hobbist) ....for what its worth.

Add: I can apply varnish right off the printer - I don't have to wait any  time with the canon printer and canon's own canvas (400GSM) - at first I did, and then about 50 prints later, I thought why bother and a year later, I still have the print and its unchanged.  The stuff in that sense is very solid and predictable.

I treat my canvases the same way an artist would treat their giclee.  I have a giclee purchased from a gallery (an original oil printing converted to giclee) and its framed by a gallery and I wouldn't dare scratch it or expect it to fall off a wall and not be damaged.  That is my benchmark for my canvas prints .

Perhaps I'm misguided in my expectations and only time will tell (the customer is always right..) but if people expect something that is unbreakable, unscratchable and undamageable - then they can plaque it.  (I personally dislike that product but no accounting for taste)
« Last Edit: July 17, 2013, 02:48:19 PM by Bullfrog » Logged
framah
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« Reply #14 on: July 18, 2013, 08:53:43 AM »
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I'd say to get yourself a heat mount table and laminate them.

By the time you are done with all of that futzing around and days long waiting times, it would be worth the initial outlay of money for the heat table and roll of laminate. In for 13 minutes or so and about 15 minutes of weighted cooling and your done. Very durable.
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