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Author Topic: The best camera is...  (Read 14647 times)
marcmccalmont
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« Reply #60 on: August 02, 2012, 12:53:03 PM »
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I've got both an IQ180 and a D800E, for what it's worth "Lens, Lens, Lens" is everything
My IQ 180 is a bit disappointing with some of my older Mamiya lenses but is outstanding on my WRS w/Rodenstock HR lenses
My D800E is very good with some of the Nikkors but outstanding with the Leica R's, so just my 4 cents worth find the best lenses that suit your personal taste and build a camera around your lenses. You would be happy with the following:
Phase one IQ 180 w/either schneider or rodenstock lenses
Leica S2/ Leica lenses
D800E/Leica R's
I have no experience with hassy's but I sure there is a good solution there also
Marc
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FredBGG
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« Reply #61 on: August 02, 2012, 12:56:05 PM »
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DR depends mostly on the number of photons captured. A larger format will collect more photons, if exposure is the same.

DR depends on many factors.
Sensor size actually does not have that much do do with it.
Sensor efficiency and quality has a lot more to do with it.
How much space there is between photosites... but even that is not always true.
Fuji's super CCD had better dynamic range than anything else for many years and it had large spaces between
photosites, but had a dual array. Photosites for highlights and photosites for shadows and midtones.

Just look at the excellent dynamic range of the D7000 with it's tiny sensor.
D7000 has the same dynamic range as the Phase One IQ180

D800 has better dynamic range than the IQ180, but a sensor half the area size.
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ErikKaffehr
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« Reply #62 on: August 02, 2012, 01:09:24 PM »
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Hi,

Diglloyd has tested most of the Pentax 645D lenses. The short version is that some are very good and some are less good. But one has to keep in mind that Lloyd is pretty demanding.

Interestingly he also compared the Nikon D800 with a Zeiss 100/2 macro Planar and a Leica S2 with a 120/2.5 Apo Macro Summarit and it was pretty even. Nikon better in the corners and Leica better at center. Leica had a lot of Moiré.

In general, Lloyd complains a lot about difficulties focusing without live view. He also tested the Hasselblad H4D50, with two lenses the 28/4 and the 100/2.2 and he found both lenses lacking.

I would recommend the Diglloyd site for anyone considering the Leica S2 or the Pentax 645D as there is a lot of useful info on those pages.  It's a pay site but probably worth it.

Miles Hecker of Wyofoto fame has a 645D and loves it, he found that the weather proofing really works.

Best regards
Erik

How are the quality of lenses for the Pentax?
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theguywitha645d
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« Reply #63 on: August 02, 2012, 03:27:12 PM »
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Not crazy about the closed system of the Pentax.

But you are considering the closed system of the S2? Pity, because the 645D sounds like a very good match for what you want to do.
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wildlightphoto
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« Reply #64 on: August 02, 2012, 03:50:55 PM »
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But you are considering the closed system of the S2? Pity, because the 645D sounds like a very good match for what you want to do.

Adapters for Hasselblad V, Hasselblad H, Pentax 67, and Mamiya lenses are available for the S2.  The Hasselblad H adapter allows full use of the lens' functions including AF and shutter.  Leica also reverse-engineered profiles for the H lenses for processing software.

A forum with several discussions of non-Leica lenses on the S2 is at http://www.reddotforum.com/forumdisplay.php/5-Alternative-Lenses
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Captian Light
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« Reply #65 on: August 02, 2012, 03:53:09 PM »
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But you are considering the closed system of the S2? Pity, because the 645D sounds like a very good match for what you want to do.

It could be. However, upon reviewing images from various cameras, the photographs coming H3D-39 seem to fit my photographic style the best. It may not be the most weather sealed, but it looks like it can be set up rather quickly to get the shot I need.
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Captian Light
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« Reply #66 on: August 02, 2012, 03:58:05 PM »
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This is exactly what I wish to accomplish with my camera. I think I might go with the H3D-39.
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ErikKaffehr
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« Reply #67 on: August 02, 2012, 04:02:43 PM »
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Hi,

I actually wrote:
Quote
Noise which is related to smoothness and DR depends mostly on the number of photons captured.

So you quote me selectively. There are several factors affecting noise. The major source of noise is shot noise that is coming from the statistical distribution of incident photons. Quantum efficiency does have little to do with noise. If QE is low you can increase exposure to compensate. ETTR, expose to the right.

How many photons a pixel can hold depends mostly on it size. But how many photons a sensor can detect depends on the silicon area. So larger sensors have an advantage, other factors being constant.

DR is a technical term and is essentially FWC (Full Well Capacity) / read noise with both expressed in electrons. Roughly one electron corresponds to one photon.

The Fuji super CCD has some trick using dual sensors.  I imagine that for that to work the highlight sensels must have some kind of grey filter or aperture. Anyway the super CCD is not a mainstream technology now.

The reason that the D7000 has an excellent DR is that it has very little readout noise. That depends on the sensor having a massive array of on chip ADC (Analog to Digital Converters).


If you check DxO-mark you can see that the Nikon D7000 has similar DR to the Phase One IQ180 (albeit at much higher ISO) but the IQ-180 has better tonal range. Tonal range is similar to DR but does not use SNR=1 criteria but a stiffer one.

My guess is that the D7000 sensor has a readout noise of perhaps 2 electrons and the IQ-180 about 12 electrons.

Best regards
Erik







DR depends on many factors.
Sensor size actually does not have that much do do with it.
Sensor efficiency and quality has a lot more to do with it.
How much space there is between photosites... but even that is not always true.
Fuji's super CCD had better dynamic range than anything else for many years and it had large spaces between
photosites, but had a dual array. Photosites for highlights and photosites for shadows and midtones.

Just look at the excellent dynamic range of the D7000 with it's tiny sensor.
D7000 has the same dynamic range as the Phase One IQ180

D800 has better dynamic range than the IQ180, but a sensor half the area size.
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Slobodan Blagojevic
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« Reply #68 on: August 02, 2012, 04:10:26 PM »
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... upon reviewing images from various cameras, the photographs coming H3D-39 seem to fit my photographic style the best...

There are only three cameras in the world that have their own style: Holga, Diana (medium format) and Lomo (35 mm format).

All other cameras are just boxes with one round and one rectangular or square opening, and can not possibly have a style of their own. It is the photographer who might have a style. If one is extremely generous, he might allow that certain lenses (or lens manufacturers) have "style" of their own. But that's it. The rest is photographer's style, either at the moment of capture or in post-processing.

And while we are at it, would you show us some of your photographs that define your style?
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Slobodan Blagojevic
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« Reply #69 on: August 02, 2012, 04:17:14 PM »
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This is exactly what I wish to accomplish with my camera. I think I might go with the H3D-39.

There is absolutely nothing in that photo that is unique to H3D-39. It could have been shot with a number of other MF cameras, film or digital, with an equivalent focal-lenght lens. That is, if you subscribe to the theory that MF has something "extra" other (smaller) formats do not. If you do not, then the same image could have been taken with several 35 mm cameras with equivalent focal-lenght lenses, especially if we are talking about "style."
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wildlightphoto
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« Reply #70 on: August 02, 2012, 04:22:44 PM »
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... upon reviewing images from various cameras, the photographs coming H3D-39 seem to fit my photographic style the best.

Unless web is your intended display medium, don't use web-sized images to make such a costly purchase.  Personal habits and preferences often make one photographer hate one camera while another photographer producing similar images loves how the same camera works.  Ergonomic design, placement of buttons/switches and odd accessories can make or break the usefulness of a camera; try several before committing your $$$$$.  I suspect nearly all the cameras mentioned in this thread can make photos like the ones in the link you provided.
« Last Edit: August 02, 2012, 04:37:44 PM by wildlightphoto » Logged
FredBGG
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« Reply #71 on: August 02, 2012, 04:47:29 PM »
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Hi,

I actually wrote:
So you quote me selectively. There are several factors affecting noise. The major source of noise is shot noise that is coming from the statistical distribution of incident photons. Quantum efficiency does have little to do with noise. If QE is low you can increase exposure to compensate. ETTR, expose to the right.

How many photons a pixel can hold depends mostly on it size. But how many photons a sensor can detect depends on the silicon area. So larger sensors have an advantage, other factors being constant.

DR is a technical term and is essentially FWC (Full Well Capacity) / read noise with both expressed in electrons. Roughly one electron corresponds to one photon.

The Fuji super CCD has some trick using dual sensors.  I imagine that for that to work the highlight sensels must have some kind of grey filter or aperture. Anyway the super CCD is not a mainstream technology now.

The reason that the D7000 has an excellent DR is that it has very little readout noise. That depends on the sensor having a massive array of on chip ADC (Analog to Digital Converters).


If you check DxO-mark you can see that the Nikon D7000 has similar DR to the Phase One IQ180 (albeit at much higher ISO) but the IQ-180 has better tonal range. Tonal range is similar to DR but does not use SNR=1 criteria but a stiffer one.

My guess is that the D7000 sensor has a readout noise of perhaps 2 electrons and the IQ-180 about 12 electrons.

Best regards
Erik








I quoted you selectively because I was making a point regarding just what I quoted, but let me elaborate.

I am talking about photon to electron conversion.

Take a look at this article. It explains what I am referring to.

http://www.sony.net/SonyInfo/technology/technology/theme/cmos_01.html
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theguywitha645d
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« Reply #72 on: August 02, 2012, 04:50:48 PM »
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Adapters for Hasselblad V, Hasselblad H, Pentax 67, and Mamiya lenses are available for the S2.  The Hasselblad H adapter allows full use of the lens' functions including AF and shutter.  Leica also reverse-engineered profiles for the H lenses for processing software.

A forum with several discussions of non-Leica lenses on the S2 is at http://www.reddotforum.com/forumdisplay.php/5-Alternative-Lenses

So, the Pentax 645D can only use adapted lenses from Hasselblad V, Pentax 67, and Leica Visoflex. The Pentax 67 adapter allows the use of the auto-diaphram. The AF system in the 645D is far superior and is a far more versatile camera with a larger selection of native lenses. It also has a great ISO 1600 and unlimited exposure time. Plus, you can buy two bodies for the price of one S2.
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theguywitha645d
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« Reply #73 on: August 02, 2012, 04:52:18 PM »
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This is exactly what I wish to accomplish with my camera. I think I might go with the H3D-39.

Can't do that with a 645D as there is no 28mm lens available. It does have a 25mm lens that is weatherproof however.
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theguywitha645d
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« Reply #74 on: August 02, 2012, 04:55:26 PM »
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BTW, it the Hasselblad blows your hair back, go for it. It is a fine camera and you will be able to get great images out of it.
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wildlightphoto
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« Reply #75 on: August 02, 2012, 05:14:00 PM »
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So, the Pentax 645D can only use adapted lenses from Hasselblad V, Pentax 67, and Leica Visoflex. The Pentax 67 adapter allows the use of the auto-diaphram. The AF system in the 645D is far superior and is a far more versatile camera with a larger selection of native lenses. It also has a great ISO 1600 and unlimited exposure time. Plus, you can buy two bodies for the price of one S2.

I'm not trying to prove one camera is better than the other.  I'm only trying to present some facts.  "Far superior" and "far more versatile" are quite subjective and whether meaningful or not can depend to a very large degree on the photographer's needs.  Can we stick to the facts?  This doesn't need to degenerate into a typical internet pissing match.  I'm pretty sure the OP can look up the prices all by himself.
« Last Edit: August 02, 2012, 05:19:06 PM by wildlightphoto » Logged
Captian Light
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« Reply #76 on: August 02, 2012, 05:30:56 PM »
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BTW, it the Hasselblad blows your hair back, go for it. It is a fine camera and you will be able to get great images out of it.

You sir, just may be the only sane person in this thread. Thanks for the honest reply.
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Slobodan Blagojevic
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« Reply #77 on: August 02, 2012, 05:58:58 PM »
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... It is a fine camera and you will be able to get great images out of it.

Two proposed edits to the above and I am 100 % with you (sane or otherwise):

- replace "it" with "any camera under discussion so far"
- replace "will" with "might"
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theguywitha645d
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« Reply #78 on: August 02, 2012, 06:59:23 PM »
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I'm not trying to prove one camera is better than the other.  I'm only trying to present some facts.  "Far superior" and "far more versatile" are quite subjective and whether meaningful or not can depend to a very large degree on the photographer's needs.  Can we stick to the facts?  This doesn't need to degenerate into a typical internet pissing match.  I'm pretty sure the OP can look up the prices all by himself.

I am just messing with you. The S2 is no more an open system than the 645D is. No need to quote my post.
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wildlightphoto
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« Reply #79 on: August 02, 2012, 08:58:19 PM »
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I am just messing with you.

I guess LuLa is no better than anywhere else.
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