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Author Topic: Nikon D800E v.s Hasselblad H4D40: my in-studio test-review  (Read 23379 times)
FredBGG
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« Reply #40 on: August 04, 2012, 04:14:16 PM »
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Eric has already noted that he doesn't agree with either your reading of his work or your conclusions.

That the d800 is a gamechanger goes without saying. We can all agree on that.

That it renders MFDB without purpose.... well, people find what they want. I'm not giving up mine. Must be for some reason.

Not that Eric..... I got the two Eric(k)s confused.
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FredBGG
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« Reply #41 on: August 04, 2012, 04:20:13 PM »
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Here is another comparison view that is easier to see via browser.
A custom made camera profile would likely equalize the tonal differences.
Resolution-wise this is splitting hairs, literally.
Both cameras are great:)

I could not agree more.

But as I mentioned before there are better lenses than the 105 2.8D
Also the color abberation of the 105 is sufficient to take some of the fine skin tonality away
at the pixel peeping levels of this test.
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FredBGG
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« Reply #42 on: August 04, 2012, 04:25:13 PM »
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And there lies the problem with this type of comparison!  Undecided

Its more about your personal view point than anything else. I value the extra money spent on a digital back as they are more than just IQ and Mpix count. To me, in my field of work, a digital has way, way more flexibility than any 35mm DSLR. People who don't use one as I do won't see the added value and only see the BIG difference in price tag vs Mpix count.

Can you elaborate on your field of work?
I think it would be interesting to see some examples.
Also in what ways do you find the DB more flexible?
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gazwas
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« Reply #43 on: August 04, 2012, 04:55:13 PM »
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Can you elaborate on your field of work?
I think it would be interesting to see some examples.
Also in what ways do you find the DB more flexible?

Fred, I enjoy reading your posts and find you a very colourful guy (take that as a compliment). I always have a chuckle over your postings and one man crusade to continually put down of all things MFD and even funnier, your (almost) total obsession with the Fuji GX680 (we're due a GX680 plug from you soon its page3 already  Tongue) and now the Nikon D800.

However, I don't know why you're so fixated about the D800 having to be as good as MFD or why you are even that bothered. I don't shoot test cards for fun, and I often will use more than my best 85mm 1.4G lens to create pictures. I just don't think you get my point that we all see different things in our photography that make us use the kit we do and its not always just about pixel peeping IMO.
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trying to think of something meaningful........ Err?
FredBGG
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« Reply #44 on: August 04, 2012, 08:13:37 PM »
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Fred, I enjoy reading your posts and find you a very colourful guy (take that as a compliment). I always have a chuckle over your postings and one man crusade to continually put down of all things MFD and even funnier, your (almost) total obsession with the Fuji GX680 (we're due a GX680 plug from you soon its page3 already  Tongue) and now the Nikon D800.

However, I don't know why you're so fixated about the D800 having to be as good as MFD or why you are even that bothered. I don't shoot test cards for fun, and I often will use more than my best 85mm 1.4G lens to create pictures. I just don't think you get my point that we all see different things in our photography that make us use the kit we do and its not always just about pixel peeping IMO.

Don't get me wrong...I am genuinely interested in your work..... and where you find MFD to be more flexible.

Regarding what you refered to as my "crusade".... well it's not about MFD, it's about young and new photographers buying the right gear.
Because of my online presence and the fact that I shoot  fashion and portraits with many different formats and shoot the A-List I get loads of emails
from new and young photograhers running their shopping lists by me. Far to often these guy and girls have been convinced that they have get Hasselblad or Phase One if they want to be taken seriously. I hate to see this because I loved teaching and I love to see the new up and coming photographers get going on the right footing. Lets call it balancing out things..... veteran photographer published in A list fashion mags with clients like L'Oreal, Wella, walter Thompson...yad yada bla bla Wink    countering over zealous marketing due to declining sales.

You mentioned with a bit of friendly sarcasm that you don't take photos of test cards for fun..... well I don't either.
I or my assistant does it for work. It is part of the pre production process. Making sure the gear is up
 to snuff. While my fees are quite 'healthy' the value of the time of many of my portrait subjects is very expensive.
Many make $20m per movie. With 3 or 4 a year that puts them into really large value per day.
Gear has to be spot on and checked regularly.

Going back to MFD .. I have owned it used it and rented all sorts. Also given it plenty of praise, still do if yo think about it.
I find the D800 to be a brilliant camera...... that produces brilliant images.... I have also said even right here in this thread that the Hasselbad produces just as brilliant images. That sounds like a compliment to me Wink. It's the prices that are 'offensive' Wink


Time to go kitesufing down at my favorite spot.....
Here's a thought... you should here my discussions about bad safety record with kitesurfing companies and responsible marketing.....


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BernardLanguillier
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« Reply #45 on: August 04, 2012, 08:20:46 PM »
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Well maybe but the price difference is more because its not in a pro body format.  The pro body has significantly better autofocus among other advantages. Surely there would be many who'd pay $8000 for the D800E sensor put into a pro body?  People are saying the 5Dmk3 and the H4 bodies have more accurate AF.  

I personally clearly see more AF keepers with my D800 compared to my previous D3x.

Cheers,
Bernard
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A few images online here!
FredBGG
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« Reply #46 on: August 04, 2012, 09:22:42 PM »
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I personally clearly see more AF keepers with my D800 compared to my previous D3x.

Cheers,
Bernard


I agree. The AF on the D800 is really good.

Just the fact that you don't have to focus and recompose is great.

It would be nice to have even 1Ds focusing from years ago in a MFD.
Pentax 645D is the best offering.

Talking about the H4... I real wonder who came up with true focus.
The engineer that made it work is a wizz, but my question is why a focus an recompose???

I really hate wiggling my camera around in front of someone I am photographing.
It's not conducive to concentrating on the subject and mood.
It also is not practical for shooting wide open. It's  easy to end up moving forward or backwards when
recomposing.
Seems to me that 20 or so focus points would have done the job better.
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JV
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« Reply #47 on: August 04, 2012, 10:56:06 PM »
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...your postings and one man crusade to continually put down of all things MFD...

Even ModelMayhem.com does not escape...:
http://www.modelmayhem.com/po.php?thread_id=842224&page=1
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David Eichler
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« Reply #48 on: August 05, 2012, 02:31:45 AM »
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I agree. The AF on the D800 is really good.

Just the fact that you don't have to focus and recompose is great.

It would be nice to have even 1Ds focusing from years ago in a MFD.
Pentax 645D is the best offering.

Talking about the H4... I real wonder who came up with true focus.
The engineer that made it work is a wizz, but my question is why a focus an recompose???

I really hate wiggling my camera around in front of someone I am photographing.
It's not conducive to concentrating on the subject and mood.
It also is not practical for shooting wide open. It's  easy to end up moving forward or backwards when
recomposing.
Seems to me that 20 or so focus points would have done the job better.

Which of those 20 focus points is dedicated to focussing on the eyes?
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kers
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« Reply #49 on: August 05, 2012, 03:44:23 AM »
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Alex, thank you for the comparison…
Also i very much like the way you present the test and your Rambo-self-portrait showing it is not all about pixelpeeping but about photography.

Having worked with the d800E now for some time i think the images of the d800e could be even better if you:

use d8:    d16 is really losing detail and crispness ( d11 is also really good but d16…not to talk about d22)
use adobe raw (CS6) instead of Nikon software- the microcontrast and 3d feeling is much better.

(I am sure there are better lenses too but at d8 ( or even more d16) there is little difference)

I am doing architecture and came from 4x5. In the digital age it was clear to me that 35mm would be top in a few years and i always have found it the most versatile creative system:
So i invested in some good glass and now the day has come.

At present everyone who wants to be photographer is able to buy a professional camera for almost nothing and we a are back at square one:
The difference will be the skill and imagination of the photographer. I like that.
« Last Edit: August 05, 2012, 03:46:29 AM by kers » Logged

Pieter Kers
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pedro39photo
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« Reply #50 on: August 05, 2012, 05:04:18 AM »
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Super Alex !!! great review with great online tools for peep-pixels differences.
Thanks for big effort and to deliver this for Free and with no "Tabus"  (DMF VS 33mm WARS) !!!!

I am a newbie in the DMF, but after using a H3D 22MP for 3 months, it was a deep impact in me and the way i "feel the act" of making photography.

I think if in the future the technology can make a smartphone with the exact file quality of a Hasselblad H4D, no one here with really passion for photography choose the smartphone vs H4D for a beautiful golden hour landscape picture.
All user here have a passion for photography and they want the best quality file in the end, but the joy, the touch, the feeling of the tools (cameras) of course have great impact in this art.

Now my only wishes is that Sony produces the same D800 sensor on a Medium Format size, and the Hasselblad used in the H5D in the 10.000$ price range !!!
THAT ITS THE REALLY REVOLUTION IN THE MARKET THAT WE ARE WAITING!!!  

Pedro
« Last Edit: August 05, 2012, 05:41:10 AM by pedro39photo » Logged
BrendanStewart
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« Reply #51 on: August 05, 2012, 07:41:06 AM »
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Even ModelMayhem.com does not escape...:
http://www.modelmayhem.com/po.php?thread_id=842224&page=1

1. Wow, a 'crowd' of speedlites behind a studio modifier?
2. 1/800th or 1/1600th real sync speed in useless? Could have fooled me.... i make use of that all the time.

That entire thread made my head hurt.
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pedro39photo
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« Reply #52 on: August 05, 2012, 05:39:22 PM »
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I think that we are in a time of changes:

Many photographers never experience the joy of shooting and composing a frame with Medium Format, and donīt really understand the feeling and the joy of the big viewfinder, slow handling of the camera and even a hand lightmeter on a DMF workflow.

So its easy to compare files and say d800 vs H4d its the same, and maybe in the present its time to eat the grass and say " the d800 get the same quality of a 20.000$ H4D camera!" but in the end its not the same...

I think that Sony/Nikon achive to put the tecnology of Formula 1 engine inside of Ford Focus car, and that its great, but the Hasselblad its another car chassis! diferent wheels, drive wheel, suspension, even if both car now can achive que same top speed...

Now the challenge for the big ones ( hasselblad, phase one, leaf) its to deliver a marketing strategy/new products with the strenghts of the Medium Format cameras and no more " we have 40MP or 50MP".

In the 80īs in the age of film cameras, the medium format had a good market share even in the amateur photographers, because in that time the entry level of MF cameras was not 13.000 usd dollars...

I think that its time for the market of MFD to deliver a 7.000$ 30MP fat pixeis entry level camera system.

I am a Canon photographer and was in a waiting list for a d800 with 5.000$ in my pocket, but after tried the "old" H3D 22MP it was a game change for me! no more 500 or 700 pictures in a card for a day trip...just 50 ou 70 pictures of great time spend, challenge metering, and clumsy tripod tunning.

But in the end of the day, that few 50 ou 70 pictures of the " old " 22MP H3D are so special...

What its difficult to me its that MFD tools are almost forbiten because of prices...but i think that i can find a great deal in second hand in my price range of 5000usd.

Sorry my bad english
Pedro
« Last Edit: August 05, 2012, 05:47:02 PM by pedro39photo » Logged
henrikfoto
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« Reply #53 on: August 05, 2012, 06:05:24 PM »
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In the last 10 years we have gotten a lot of new digital backs. People jump to the newest models as soon as they come (me included).

But in real life photography the only important change the last 10 years is the screen on the back.
The old 22 mp backs produces fantastic pictures without all the problems with DOF and motion blur.
I think most of us never really need more than 22 mp?

Time to give us a 22 mp back with large CMOS -pixels with good high ISO for under 10.000??

Henrik
« Last Edit: August 05, 2012, 06:14:09 PM by henrikfoto » Logged
marcmccalmont
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« Reply #54 on: August 05, 2012, 07:45:16 PM »
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I'd actually like to see it go the other way say a 160 to 320 megapixel sensor so every pixel is small enough to be diffraction blurred at all apertures but with 4 photosites binned as one super pixel. BTW the IQ180 gives you exactly what you want in the binned mode 20 million large pixels and a big screen!
Marc
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Marc McCalmont
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« Reply #55 on: August 05, 2012, 07:51:11 PM »
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Hi Marc,

But not CMOS and not under 10k ;-)

Best regards
Erik

I'd actually like to see it go the other way say a 160 to 320 megapixel sensor so every pixel is small enough to be diffraction blurred at all apertures but with 4 photosites binned as one super pixel. BTW the IQ180 gives you exactly what you want in the binned mode 20 million large pixels and a big screen!
Marc
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marcmccalmont
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« Reply #56 on: August 05, 2012, 07:59:44 PM »
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Hi Marc,

But not CMOS and not under 10k ;-)

Best regards
Erik

Sorry next year, IQ180+ CMOS $9999.00 Smiley
Marc
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Marc McCalmont
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« Reply #57 on: August 05, 2012, 09:56:39 PM »
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At Canon Watch there is a rumor about Canon announcing a medium format body this Fotokina. The rumor says that it will mount "some" EF lenses. That would be impossible unless it is a mirrorless body or it is about a technical camera with a built-in sensor, of course, with LV. Most likely it is just garbage but just the idea of either coming true, gives me goose bumps.
Eduardo


Sorry next year, IQ180+ CMOS $9999.00 Smiley
Marc
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ErikKaffehr
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« Reply #58 on: August 05, 2012, 10:34:09 PM »
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Hi Marc,

Nice that you can see in future! Started saving for the IQ 180+ CMOS...

Best regards
Erik


Sorry next year, IQ180+ CMOS $9999.00 Smiley
Marc
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FredBGG
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« Reply #59 on: November 26, 2012, 05:05:43 PM »
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Alex, thank you for this review and its great presentation and providing the raw files. I'd like to add a few points.
I played with the portrait raw files using RawTherapee, without using custom DCP profiles, but using dcraw camera matrices, which seem to be the same as Adobe.
I'd like to point that due to composition differences D800E file is in inferior position as portrait is captured in a smaller scale (illustration 1)
Additionally, there are some differences in skintones due to movement in relation to the light.
Lenses on both cameras were set at F11 which leads to different rendering of the DOF and overall image look, also in favor for sharpness in critical focus for H4D.

Nevertheless, this illustration 2 (http://minus.com/m2aWArEH6) can be used for comparing skintones from both cameras as well as resolution. I added identical sharpening to both images.
As owner of D800E I am very happy with this result!:)
Attached in the zip file are the pp3 sidecar files that can be re-used in RawTherapee (version 4.9.50+)




Being shot significantly closer the Hasselblad image is favored due to the Nikon image having to be blown up for the cropped comparison in the article.

IF both had been shot at the same size in frame the Nikon image would have been just as good if not better.

Here are Michaels un scaled crops:



and here are the comparisson scaled to match crops from the article:




« Last Edit: November 26, 2012, 05:22:57 PM by FredBGG » Logged
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