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Author Topic: Why used digital backs with Hasselblad H mount are usually cheaper?  (Read 6541 times)
FredBGG
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« Reply #20 on: August 10, 2012, 06:02:25 PM »
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H 100mm, 80mm, and 35mm are really excellent. In fact I find now a day almost all modern MF lenses are good. At least they are far more than good enough to me.
But saying H lens can kick sand to Zeiss's face is really a comedy. Sorry, I have closely handled both Zeiss and HB-H.

Here is some info on H and V lenses

http://www.hasselbladusa.com/media/1663143/the_evolution_of_lenses.pdf

The only real difference with newer "digital" lenses is that they are cutting corners with distortion and CA because they can correct it in post,
but this is only with the very latest lenses. Less expensive to make, lighter and fix it in post.
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EinstStein
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« Reply #21 on: August 10, 2012, 09:59:16 PM »
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Well, the sample lenses in this article indicate that the Zeiss version has better performance in infinity while H version in close up, and my personal observation is, the close up means 3 or 5 feet, maybe.
The other major difference I can see is, the Zeiss version has better flare resistance while H version has more round aperture ghost, ..., more shutter blades.
This doesn't seem a bothering matter to me. That's a nonsense introduced by the bokeh articles. The aperture ghost with soft edge, star radiance, pentagon, or perfect circle  all have their charm to me.
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uaiomex
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« Reply #22 on: August 10, 2012, 10:47:53 PM »
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Exactly! I've said the same thing several times. The pentagons just make the images more photogenic. I've been told by a a friend that happens to be an outstanding editorial designer that they add character to the images.
Eduardo

Well, the sample lenses in this article indicate that the Zeiss version has better performance in infinity while H version in close up, and my personal observation is, the close up means 3 or 5 feet, maybe.
The other major difference I can see is, the Zeiss version has better flare resistance while H version has more round aperture ghost, ..., more shutter blades.
This doesn't seem a bothering matter to me. That's a nonsense introduced by the bokeh articles. The aperture ghost with soft edge, star radiance, pentagon, or perfect circle  all have their charm to me.

« Last Edit: August 10, 2012, 10:50:14 PM by uaiomex » Logged
paul_jones
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« Reply #23 on: August 11, 2012, 01:11:55 AM »
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i have owned a couple of H1 kits, and a couple of contax kits. i copped and changed systems a few times, but i keep coming back to contax.
the pros of hassy is they are cheaper (second hand), easily rented and lower priced used backs and the finders are bright.
 but i find them not very nice to use control wise. the finders are bowed, the lenses have a weird blur (an important issue with me as i have a lot of blur in my shots), theres no vertical grip (thats a big deal if you shoot vertically for 12 hour days).

the contax has issues too, but i find these issues easier to live with. the batteries dont last long, the finder is dark and small (especially if you have a cropped digi back) , and some of the accessories are hard to get and expensive.
I have solved two of the contax problems however. first, I use a p65+ and it covers full frame, so this makes the finder way better. I also brought a bill maxwell focusing screen and this has made the finder way brighter, and focusing is far easier.
the best things about the contax is the controls are well laid out and very functional. the lenses do have a nice blur when open, and most of the lenses are extremely sharp.

there are very few contax digital backs used, but lately i have seen a few pop up. a p30 and a p25, and ive heard about a possible p45 for sale.

whats your budget for a back?

paul
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EinstStein
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« Reply #24 on: August 11, 2012, 01:36:35 AM »
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contax has issues? You are talking it light. It has big big issue. If you can't find the supply you want, what kind of issue is that!
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Pingang
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« Reply #25 on: August 11, 2012, 10:37:55 AM »
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I use Phase backs on both Contax 645AF and H system and have to say there are maori times with problems on H system than on Contax 645AF. Yes, it is a lot older but it just goes on faultlessly. May be it is H system try to do too much digitally - no doubt a more complicate electronics but Contax does everything necessary photographically, Just a reliable system with the only issue of viewfinder being not very bright.  The lenses and accessories are in fact cost less than H system still.
I guess the answer for this is there are more supply on H backs than demand while there are more demand on Contax mont than supply!

Pingang



i have owned a couple of H1 kits, and a couple of contax kits. i copped and changed systems a few times, but i keep coming back to contax.
the pros of hassy is they are cheaper (second hand), easily rented and lower priced used backs and the finders are bright.
 but i find them not very nice to use control wise. the finders are bowed, the lenses have a weird blur (an important issue with me as i have a lot of blur in my shots), theres no vertical grip (thats a big deal if you shoot vertically for 12 hour days).

the contax has issues too, but i find these issues easier to live with. the batteries dont last long, the finder is dark and small (especially if you have a cropped digi back) , and some of the accessories are hard to get and expensive.
I have solved two of the contax problems however. first, I use a p65+ and it covers full frame, so this makes the finder way better. I also brought a bill maxwell focusing screen and this has made the finder way brighter, and focusing is far easier.
the best things about the contax is the controls are well laid out and very functional. the lenses do have a nice blur when open, and most of the lenses are extremely sharp.

there are very few contax digital backs used, but lately i have seen a few pop up. a p30 and a p25, and ive heard about a possible p45 for sale.

whats your budget for a back?

paul
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EinstStein
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« Reply #26 on: August 11, 2012, 12:20:46 PM »
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There is definitely some true in the supply/demand theory, but I guess it's heavily weighted on the short of supply side, less on the excessive demand side. This is actually more of a complaining issue  than a question.
Simple, there are far fewer makers for Contax mount, and photographers see the cameras as money making tools, the absolute IQ is only part of the considerations. The supplier's incentive program can easily win over.

I guess
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EinstStein
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« Reply #27 on: August 11, 2012, 05:46:48 PM »
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DB for H is really easy to find. right now I'm seeing a very reputable site listing Aptus 22MB for $4000, Aptus 75 for $7000, and P45+ for $9000.  Nothing for Contax 645.   
Another one, an official site  for Phase-One pre-owned, now even removes the Pxx+C completely, only leave Pxx+H, Pxx+V, and Pxx+M.
I've talked to them a while ago, the message was, they just sold what was believed the last Phase-one P45/P25 grade Contax mount.
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bcooter
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« Reply #28 on: August 12, 2012, 03:12:23 PM »
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snip.........photographers see the cameras as money making tools, the absolute IQ is only part of the considerations. The supplier's incentive program can easily win over.

I guess

That's somewhat true, but for most professionals if they so wish they could (and some do) shoot with almost anything, at least on digital and with lower priced dslrs though some people change them out every 2 years of less.

Medium format cameras (cameras not the digital film)  we're never designed to be traded in every two years like the current thought of the digital world.

Most Medium format cameras were designed to work for decades.  The Contax(s) I use came out of the box with a digital interface, way before most of us thought it would be a completely digital world and they work as well today as the day I bought them.

I've had very few glitches or freezes, especially with the Phase backs and I guess they will run for another 10 years if I so desire and I've shot about a gazillion images with these cameras.  If I have any issue with the Contax it's the lenses are sometimes too sharp.

When Contax went belly up, I got a little paranoid and bought about 4 of everything, though have had only one repair which was user error, not the design of the equipment.

When you look at the current and past medium format cameras still in use with digital from new hasselblads, Mamiya 645s even the Pentax they all have their design and roots based in 15 year old film camera design and except for the newest crop of H's, Pentax and Mamiyas all the prior versions accepted film backs.

These images were shot with the Contax 645 and a two different digital backs with continuous light sources and worked fine, no issue.  One is 30mpx the other 20 something.





The reason I show these images is to illustrate how so much equipment in the real world is still based in old tech.

These were shot on an LA movie lot and the grip dolly weighs about 900 lbs.   It was actually used  to move bombs and ballistic material during WW II.

The shot in the lighting dept. shows some Moles that were made before anybody but the some secretive government agency was even thinking about digital capture.

In fact when I work on movie lots I laugh as I think 75% of their equipment and hardware is based on 1940's meat locker technology and movie studios NEVER throw anything away that is still working, or repairable.  

The thing is all of it is still used on 100 million dollar productions every week and nobody thinks anything of it.  

Just because it's been around a while doesn't mean it doesn't work.

In regards to the Contax, it's more scarce than some of the other brands,  but if I had to I could replace every piece of my Contax system, including backs in about two days of searching.  It's all still out there and it all still works, sometimes better than the newest.

At the time, with all the arguing going on about Hasselblad closing off their system, the good thing about the Contax is nobody ever said the firmware needed to be updated or Contax changed something that didn't allow the backs to work, because there was no more Contax to change anything.  I think this made for a more stable system.

For what it's worth, I think Contax was a camera that all the makers wished would either go away or continue forward.  Forward because they could have all concentrated on selling backs, or away because they wouldn't have to worry about building back mounts for it.

FWIW 2 I think the biggest error the back makers did was not making every back interchangeable with every camera and making that a standard from day 1.  I know there is something to be said for integrated design (at least that's what we're told), but with digital the tale wags the dog.

It's kind of hard to imagine any analog film being successful if it only worked in one camera body.  No film maker would have dreamed of that idea (on a professional level), though digital came out on the market with that thought in mind.

Nobody talks about cameras, they all zoom in and talk about the digital film like that's the only component that matters.

FWIW3.  I'm not a camera collector though I have about 6 digital and 6 film cameras that I don't want to use in heavy production as I like to keep them.  They don't set on shelves or glass cases, they're still in their travel cases, but I like them and they mean something to me.  One of them is one of my Contax.

But, back to the original question.   If you buy what you need and make sure it's what you LIKE, in medium format backs and cameras there is no real reason to change anything out for a long time, so finding some dealer incentive that gives you a few thousand in savings really isn't worth it unless it's something you really like using.

Don't discount the "like" part of the equation.

IMO

BC
« Last Edit: August 13, 2012, 03:33:03 AM by bcooter » Logged
Graham Welland
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« Reply #29 on: August 12, 2012, 06:03:36 PM »
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...

Just because it's been around a while doesn't mean it doesn't work.

...


But, back to the original question.   If you buy what you need and make sure it's what you LIKE, in medium format backs and cameras there is no real reason to change anything out for a long time, so finding some dealer incentive that gives you a few thousand in savings really isn't worth it unless it's something you really like using.

Don't discount the "like" part of the equation.

IMO

BC

Bravo. I couldn't have said it better myself. If it ain't broken, don't fix it ...  Grin
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Graham
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« Reply #30 on: August 12, 2012, 06:22:09 PM »
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+1.  Not sure whether I would be able to find a used Contax back in 2 days though...
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EinstStein
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« Reply #31 on: August 13, 2012, 12:51:03 AM »
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Talking aboutthe integrated back/camera, i really dont know what is that about.

When i had my contax with 22mp digital back, which was stolen in a break-in, i never thought there would be any need that was not integrated. But when i tried the H2 / digital kit, i do. There are many problems, the most annoying one is the " restart back" error. I have to "disintegrate" the back from the "perfectly integrated" H2, then "integrate" it again, and hope the problem goes away. The other problem is the error message saying adapter not found. If that's what means the perfect integration, thanks but no thanks.

The perfect integrated really means they are more sensitive to the other part, and anything coughs, the others get the cold.

i can't agree more on your comments on the old but perfectly working stuffs such as the contax 645.

But more, i envy your pictures. are you sure that's not taken with p&s? I'm sure you'll take p&s just as good as any cameras.

Please post more pictures.

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Isak Bergwall
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« Reply #32 on: August 16, 2012, 03:22:05 AM »
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http://www.ebay.com/itm/Phase-One-P25-Digital-Magazine-Back-for-Contax-645-MINT-IN-CASE-/190714864386?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item2c677de302

I have no idea who the seller is or anything, just saw the item on ebay Smiley

very high priced though.
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Graham Welland
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« Reply #33 on: August 16, 2012, 04:06:47 AM »
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http://www.ebay.com/itm/Phase-One-P25-Digital-Magazine-Back-for-Contax-645-MINT-IN-CASE-/190714864386?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item2c677de302

I have no idea who the seller is or anything, just saw the item on ebay Smiley

very high priced though.

FYI, I purchased an as new Mamiya mount P25+ with less than 300 (yes, three hundred!) shots on it, from a US dealer with 1 year Phase One warranty for nearly $1000 less than that eBay back. So I'd give the dealer network a call first. I know that when I started looking a couple of months ago that there were H mount backs around and the scarce one's were the Mamiya mount. You may be lucky with a Contax mount through the dealers too - even if they don't have it in stock immediately they may find one as trade-in etc via their contacts.

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Graham
Isak Bergwall
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« Reply #34 on: August 16, 2012, 04:13:00 AM »
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I am on the hunt for a p25+ mamiya mount and so far I have seen one in england that goes for 6800$ + vat and that is a bit steap I think Sad

But I guess these deals have to take time until the right one turns up..
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lance_schad
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« Reply #35 on: August 16, 2012, 10:19:02 AM »
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We had a P25+V w/ 3800 captures go recently for about the price that was just mentioned by Graham. The Pre-Owned market is very tight these days, limited supply. My recommendation is to get in contact with a reseller and let them know what you are looking for so they can keep an eye out for you . There are a lot of preowned backs that we sell that do not hit our listings on our site because we have a list of people waiting for specific models an mounts. Just be ready to pull the trigger because they are first come , first serve.

Lance
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Pingang
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« Reply #36 on: August 16, 2012, 12:28:50 PM »
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It is in the context of the medium format is developed and design in such way that it simply does not work for just snap shooting around, so you arrive at a more controlled quality. The smaller camera, becomes too convenient and in too many people's hand that it is simply waste of battery power - for many, not for all - of course.

BR,
Pingang

Bravo. I couldn't have said it better myself. If it ain't broken, don't fix it ...  Grin
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EinstStein
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« Reply #37 on: August 16, 2012, 02:17:50 PM »
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I know a local store who has kind of a formula to decide the used price. They would sell a 22 MP MFDB for about $5000 and may be less.  A 39mp however is much more expensive.
I bought from them my later stolen CF 22 for $4500 after tax.  The problem is whether you can find one. If you are in a hurry, then some other equation kicks in.
Given that Leaf 22MP new is only ~$8000, a very clean used one should be about 60% of that. Don't buy from Ebay. The price is crazy in most cases, although surprise does exists.
For any used stuffs, I'd check keh.com, adorama.com, bhphoto.com. The price is usually way below ebay.
If Hasselblad H mount works for you, they have very good price stuffs right now.
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EinstStein
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« Reply #38 on: August 16, 2012, 02:22:11 PM »
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Hust in case you are looking for H mount, KEH has Aptus 22mp for $4000 and 33Mp $7000. They had a P25 a few days ago, but seems is gone now.
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