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Author Topic: Camera equipment and HD filming for newbie  (Read 21038 times)
Bern Caughey
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« Reply #80 on: August 23, 2012, 09:21:15 PM »
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If you have an iOS device I highly recommend the pCAM app.

www.davideubank.com/Good_Focus/pCAM_Film+Digital_Calculator.html
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Petrus
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« Reply #81 on: August 23, 2012, 10:45:17 PM »
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Hi guys, just a math question:
let's say that you have to shoot a wall and you want to shoot a 5m large section of that wall; you have a 24mm lens mounted on a 1.5 cropped sensor. At which minimum distance from the wall do you put your camera to take that 5mm large section? Does a formula exist?

Wall length/distance = sensor width/focal length ( two similar triangles if we are talking about focusing not too close)

thus: wall length * focal length / sensor width = shooting distance, (5m*0.024)/(0.036/1.5)=5m measured form the front nodal point. In real life just a notch further away.

Basic geometry.
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Rhossydd
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« Reply #82 on: August 24, 2012, 01:26:38 AM »
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And then I will have a true cinema kit close to any professional.
Kit doesn't make you professional. Professional means you're earning your living from your skills in a vocation.

Most professional camera staff in TV and film DON'T own kit, they just hire it in or have it provided for them.
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fredjeang
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« Reply #83 on: August 24, 2012, 02:58:49 AM »
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Most professional camera staff in TV and film DON'T own kit, they just hire it in or have it provided for them.

Exactly.

My previous post, directed to Paul, was a little bit
Provocative on purpose, for the ones who caught it
Between lines.

That's because since I diged into motion imagery with
Great passion, I've seen both a lot of help as well as clear
Hostility from the established older pros.

The discourses that comes over and over again as to do
With the "dslr generation". They specially (talking from my
Experience in spain) hate the photographers going-doing
Video Assignements.

More than once they clearly make us feel that they
Are a closed corporation in wich we are far from being
Welcome and they see us as a bunch of parasites.
Ironicaly, most of then are doing photography as amateurs
And they would talk with us hours and hours on the
Topic, but when it comes to share their knowledge (in general
Technicaly very high) in video, they look at us with
Condescendence and simply ignore us, transmiting clearly
That we're a gang of unknowledgable dreamers. The very few who
Help with enthusiasm are as rare as A day without traffic
Jam in new-york.

They specialy hate dslrs video culture, they don't understand
How we can dare to make campaigns, paied, with so little
Mediums compared to what they are used to, most don't
Really catch yet the internet supremacy support and
They see all the changes in techniques and culture as
A fake fashion that won't last very Long and things will
Soon be back in the previous model. But things won't be
Back, on the contrary.

From my experience, I avoid now to be too closed to the
People who are currently the active pros in the area I'm learning
Because all the feedback we get is: good boys, stay were
You are and don't even dream of it.
The older the guys are, the more harsh they tend to be with us.
Don't dream, don't dream...

The only prob, is that I'm a dreamer.

In general, it takes an average of 10 years to be
Good at any craft. I' ve been into motion seriously
For about 2 years and still all to learn. I think
We are all aware of it. Only the very best in techniques
Or creativity, and the best self-sellers will make it to become
Pro, as Paul said, nothing more than having the incomes from
It.

What I'm seeing here is that people like me gave-up
To try to enter the established prods learning sweeping
The floor and carrying fresnels. What we start to do are
Very similar to Morgan's business model (if I understand
his business model). A little prod
On our own, with much less mediums, yes some dslrs here
Or there, good CAM in the AF-FS 100 style,
and as much creativity as posible.

A big brand already contacted us. They didn't gave us
An Assignement but they told us that they are following
Us and don't discart future colaborations for internet output.

It's nice to see that if we don't get any help from our
Fathers, ads agencies are taking us more seriously than
They do.

« Last Edit: August 24, 2012, 04:13:22 AM by fredjeang » Logged
Sareesh Sudhakaran
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« Reply #84 on: August 24, 2012, 08:25:00 AM »
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The only prob, is that I'm a dreamer.

+1
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Rhossydd
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« Reply #85 on: August 25, 2012, 01:13:00 AM »
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when it comes to share their knowledge (in general
Technicaly very high) in video, they look at us with
Condescendence and simply ignore us

The problem is that most of the knowledge and experience from working professionally in TV and film is simply not applicable to the sorts of no budget, one man band productions that the "dslr generation" are experimenting in.

To answer your previous query; There are already many established routes into the industries, mainly now via University and College courses. These provide more than enough entrants to the industries who already have a lot of the important basic skills and knowledge.
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fredjeang
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« Reply #86 on: August 25, 2012, 04:06:08 AM »
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Paul,

You're absolutly right and it explains in part
The reactions and reserves of the high-end pros
Towards us.

But when it comes to being back on the benches
To study, it's the wild west and currently a question
I've been asking myself seriously without answer to
Date.

There are more  training options than before, the
University being the less expensive and solid. but
The market is overcroweded, there are not enough
Prods for the current demand. Already too much
Active pros and too much students for the offers.

As i know a lot of people and know the backstages,
It's very rare that the few good ones who are doing
Advert campaigns integrate new "kids" in their team.
In general they work with the same crew they used
To work with since the begining. And the tendency is
Being conservative and less crew because the budgets
Are not the same, included in the elite.
You see the Team of One of the best advert cineast and
The guys are average 50 years old and belong to the
Elite for a long time.

Curiously, those same guys, who still Film with arri film
Cameras are mixing on set dslrs, even sometimes iPhones,
Etc...it seems that there is a fun game in wich themselves
Are questioning and rebuilding their own workflow.

The proper Almodóvar have used a 5d2 on set for some
Takes in an hospital. All the rest has been done on film.
What sure is that everything looks confused and the
Old and heavy workflow is mixing with new and lighter
Approach, and us in the middle in a world that fire more
People than employs. That's why the pirat route, as i call it,
The learning with trial and errors in self-built micro prods
Far seat from the pro circuit are often the only way
For the newcomers. I've seen enough university, cine
School students ending in a supermarket carrying boxes
For 800euros/m.

chris Barrett for ex is learning that way, while filming,
Involving himself in some Projects even if not ready
Yet from an industry point of view. And it's the US. In
Europe it would be much more difficult if not belong
To the corporations.

Not Easy to see what's the best way, studying, jumping
Into unknown waters and learning on set...what's sure
Is that the all game is changing and it's very confusing.   

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Morgan_Moore
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« Reply #87 on: August 25, 2012, 09:18:21 AM »
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Kit doesn't make you professional. Professional means you're earning your living from your skills in a vocation.

Most professional camera staff in TV and film DON'T own kit, they just hire it in or have it provided for them.

Own/Hire/Steal/Borrow - whatever the FxxK - kit you use

RossyD - I thought I gave reasonable credence to your post and you just come back with more negativity

I feel that you feel that anything but a BBC training program in 1957 and working on East Enders is for losers

I am a loser . Sorry.

And East Enders is crap - I prefer Stenderz shot with a crew of 2 on an FS100 http://www.youtube.com/user/TheSUPERMASSIVERAVER

Note how the opening frame they dergrade the footage to make it look like a lot of what you shoot.

More Stenderz http://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL1E4C2A1850DCF4C5

S
« Last Edit: August 25, 2012, 09:31:07 AM by Morgan_Moore » Logged

Sam Morgan Moore Cornwall
www.sammorganmoore.com -photography
fredjeang
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« Reply #88 on: August 25, 2012, 10:34:43 AM »
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Hey, those guys are fun ! thanks to put this refreshing link.

See ? Morgan's reaction is exactly what I was talking about before. And here in Spain it's the bloody same story.
Whatever that's not TVE approoved, training, cams and why not diploma is considered as peace of crap. (and
the most interesting part is checking the prices of the trainings in TVE, I mean you'd pay already for a reasonably good production house
equiped with Alexas...).

I understand such reaction because I had exactly the same many times when trying to get some help-advices from the Big Boys
and the only feed-back was negativity and more negativity in the best cases, hostility in most of them.
Edit: to be fair a few real help too.

I guess there is a generational unsolvable conflict because nobody seems to understand nor trying to understand the other part,
but man, it conforts me in the idea that we have to take different path and enjoy the journey regardless of the "excelent feedback and
encouragements" from the established elite.

I beleive that we are the future, we don't have to do the things that way it's been told us to do because it simply means not
doing them and things have to move forward in different forms, with different mediums and people.
We will do our bullshit imagery with after-effects, 3000 euros cams, 2 or 3 people crew, and bloody hell, it will work!

Ads agencies are already more looking at us.

The establishment don't want us? We don't need them. We need to create new mediums to distribute our work,
new looks, less steadycams, less cranes, less trucks and HMIs, less 50.000 euro cameras, less traditional workflow
and f...k TVE and all the big production dictature!

« Last Edit: August 25, 2012, 11:55:07 AM by fredjeang » Logged
Chris Sanderson
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« Reply #89 on: August 25, 2012, 10:52:21 AM »
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Just get out and shoot. Tell a good story. Use the equipment that is right at the time.
There isn't much of an audience that gives a rat's ass how you got there - except those that have a vested interest.
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Christopher Sanderson
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« Reply #90 on: August 25, 2012, 11:08:22 AM »
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When I saw you had posted Chris I thought I was in for a slapped wrist Smiley

===

I think there is a balanced path.

I am hugely influenced by my local BBC shooters who have kindly given me pointers, one is a modern VJ the other is old skool Beta

The Beta Guy shoots much nicer stuff.

The balance is to travel a path using the new and appreciating the old, tried, tested reliable.

The beeb also switched to FCP recently - slung out their tape system - I have also given them some pointers so its not even entirely one way.

Beta Guy also uses this now.. http://www.sony.co.uk/pro/product/xdcamcamcorders/pmw-500/overview, it a nice camera, out of my range.. but I still think its a nice cam.

S
« Last Edit: August 25, 2012, 11:24:01 AM by Morgan_Moore » Logged

Sam Morgan Moore Cornwall
www.sammorganmoore.com -photography
fredjeang
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« Reply #91 on: August 25, 2012, 11:27:49 AM »
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A Chris S post ?... I thought he had sold the Panasonics and drawned into the depraved life of sex drug and RnR. Roll Eyes
Nice to see you here again. I remember when this video section had about 2 or 3 posters a mounth. Things have changed since then.
Good quote.

The balance is to travel a path using the new and appreciating the old, tried, tested reliable.

I think it's a wise statement.

The Sony you linked, look, to get 50 in progressive it would shoot at 720, it doesn't break the 50 Mbps barrier and still the bloody same MPEG-2 long gop, mount is 2/3 Sony and it's 4:2:2
of course it would record at 24bits, at those level of equipment we couldn't expect less. I think of a used Red One (if you can find one!).
Grass Valley LDK 8000 cameras are awesome. Shit...130.000 US dollars. A joke!

« Last Edit: August 25, 2012, 11:53:28 AM by fredjeang » Logged
Chris Sanderson
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« Reply #92 on: August 25, 2012, 04:37:45 PM »
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... I remember when this video section had about 2 or 3 posters a mounth. Things have changed since then.

Yes, thanks mainly to you and Sareesh, Morgan, Bern C, ++.

Thanks for being here.

This rig is fun (with thanks to Peter James ASC)
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Christopher Sanderson
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« Reply #93 on: August 25, 2012, 05:00:09 PM »
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Its got the same mattebox as mine.. pro kit all the way

S
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Sam Morgan Moore Cornwall
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« Reply #94 on: August 26, 2012, 08:51:27 AM »
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I thought I gave reasonable credence to your post and you just come back with more negativity
Sorry if you find the objectivity of what constitutes 'professional' is 'negativity', that's something you'll have to deal with.
Quote
I feel that you feel that anything but a BBC training program in 1957 and working on East Enders is for losers
You 'feel' wrongly, just have the courtesy to read and comment on what I've actually written here;
"There are already many established routes into the industries, mainly now via University and College courses."
No mention of BBC training courses, or that anyone needs to have worked on any particular genre or programme.
Quote
I am a loser . Sorry.
And East Enders is crap - I prefer Stenderz shot with a crew of 2 on an FS100 http://www.youtube.com/user/TheSUPERMASSIVERAVER
Note how the opening frame they dergrade the footage to make it look like a lot of what you shoot.
More Stenderz http://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL1E4C2A1850DCF4C5
Not sure what your point is with this rant.
I haven't mentioned shooting on EastEnders here at all.
Although for clarification, others could match the "EastEnders look" with the same custom matrix and settings in similar Sony cameras, that 'look' was specified by the executive producer when the programme switched to HD aquisition.
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Morgan_Moore
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« Reply #95 on: August 26, 2012, 09:09:56 AM »
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I think you are very negative about this whole thing - that made me cross - and ranty - especially while we are on board that it mainly photographers discovering video.

You also fail to acknowledge any value in any of the new generation of technology be that as a learning tool or an actual production tool.
I mean learning on a 7d or whatever is the most liberating thing for those looking to learn; colleges are obsessed with film still which creates a culture of exclusivity and staid approaches.

Photography, which I know something of, I mean the youngsters come on so fast.
I hated learning on film, simple lessons - how blurry a racecar, how to balance flash, used to take a week and now they take a minute those lessons.
Same is true with cheap digital motion capture.
Its so much fun.

Im telling you we are a a generation, one year, from cheap cameras that put the whole industry on its knees that really are production cams, the BMC is already putting egg on the face of the C300 F3 investors

Wont happen? my first 16mp stills cam cost £10g, I just bought another one for £500 - it will happen - as for all that Sony baked in looks stuff, its as outdated as a level 4 jpg for shooting pro stills.

You obviously have a deep skill set and lots of experience. Engage, critique, advise, enjoy.

Tell me the crap shots and how I can improve them, I think Im doing OK consider I usually work alone, with 'cheap' kit, In fact I would suggest my output looks better than 70% of BBC output (Being serious I would actually exclude EA in that 70% and a lot of the bigger stuff)

Reel http://www.sammorganmoore.com/video-showreel/camera-operator-main-reel-april-2012
Films http://www.sammorganmoore.com/best-videos

S





« Last Edit: August 26, 2012, 09:11:36 AM by Morgan_Moore » Logged

Sam Morgan Moore Cornwall
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« Reply #96 on: August 26, 2012, 10:16:37 AM »
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I think you are very negative about this whole thing
Again, this your interpretation of what you think I'm saying, rather than what I've actually written.
I look at the whole DSLR bandwagon from a different position having spent so long in broadcasting. It's easier to be objective about where it really fits into the industry when you've seen more of the big picture.
Quote
You also fail to acknowledge any value in any of the new generation of technology be that as a learning tool or an actual production tool.
So what do you expect me to say ?
No I won't say "Gee awesome I can make a movie for a thousand bucks all by myself" It's bonkers. However I can see where they fit into the overall tool set available and use them when appropriate.
Quote
I mean learning on a 7d or whatever is the most liberating thing for those looking to learn; colleges are obsessed with film still which creates a culture of exclusivity and staid approaches.
They are ?? Spoken to many recent graduates ? I've just spent the last month working with the cream of graduates from Ravensbourne, Bournemouth, Westminster etc. who managed to get the huge opportunity of getting to work as assistants with OBS on the Olympics in London.
They're all well educated and knowledgeable about the industry and have significant experience of all types of kit from DSLRs to the full facilities kit their schools have.

You really don't need DSLRs to learn the basics and they haven't really brought much new to teaching. VHS camcorders did very well as teaching tools for framing, shot size etc. More modern solid state camcorders are even easier, giving easy access to NLE editing.
DSLRs can actually add a degree of complication that is an unnecessary distraction in a teaching environment.
Quote
... I mean the youngsters come on so fast.
Yes, they also need to understand that careers are a long haul. Those leaving colleges and schools now will probably need to work until their 70, there's plenty of time to learn and progress.

Quote
You obviously have a deep skill set and lots of experience. Engage, critique, advise, enjoy.

Tell me the crap shots and how I can improve them, I think Im doing OK consider I usually work alone, with 'cheap' kit, In fact I would suggest my output looks better than 70% of BBC output
Well if you've decided you're so much better than the majority of the BBC's output who am I to critique your work ?
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Rhossydd
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« Reply #97 on: August 26, 2012, 10:23:24 AM »
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We will do our bullshit imagery with after-effects, 3000 euros cams, 2 or 3 people crew, and bloody hell, it will work!
Best of luck.
You might well find that when you're having to shoot someone else's brief things gets less fun. Things get much tougher when you have to work within a fixed budget, deliver to a deadline, conform to technical standards, plus comply with all the legislation that applies to commercial work.
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Morgan_Moore
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« Reply #98 on: August 26, 2012, 10:33:51 AM »
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Well if you've decided you're so much better than the majority of the BBC's output who am I to critique your work ?

Lots of interesting and valid points.

I said what my work 'looks' like - It should look good - Ive been framing and lighting for 15+ years as a full time job.
There is more to work that what it looks like; structure, sound, context, sense, content. Those are the areas I need to develop.

I think the really interesting future is melding work that looks good, with work that has the other attributes too

Im mainly talking 'factual' BTW BBC drama looks good.

S








« Last Edit: August 26, 2012, 10:37:47 AM by Morgan_Moore » Logged

Sam Morgan Moore Cornwall
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fredjeang
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« Reply #99 on: August 26, 2012, 01:56:36 PM »
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Best of luck.
You might well find that when you're having to shoot someone else's brief things gets less fun. Things get much tougher when you have to work within a fixed budget, deliver to a deadline, conform to technical standards, plus comply with all the legislation that applies to commercial work.

Paul,

Of course what you say in this thread is full of valid points and I don't think anyone questioned your experience and knowledge.
But basicaly you're saying (or that's what I understand) that there is only one way to become part of this industry and it's going to school-university.

My post on 3000 bucks budget and after-effect was of course an image with a tint of provocation, but I beleive there is some truth in it.

I learned and still learning the editing on Avid (wich is my main editor) and Grass Valley (wich is my prefered editor)
Those 2 aren't FCP10, you know that, nor easy and intuitive to learn at first but broadcast standart editors that I know. I've started to train with Nuke and Nuke is also that I know
the standart number one in compositing within the cine industry. But then...also what is true is that the Nukodas suite are closing, the Quantel Pablo suites are closing,
and the guys who are mastering after-effect are getting more and more assignements.
Yes, at first it was very-low end, almost jokes, now it's different and the ones who joke less are the Pablos operators etc...

I'm not far to think that Adobe will replace MC and FCP and will become the standart. And those kids who learned with their pirated Adobe suites and Canons and who are uploading their
prods in Vimeos will more likely to become the new Michel Gondry or Aveillan s than the university students. (but I can be wrong)

This is a complex debate and I don't think that the reality is as black or that white. If things were really stricktly as you say, why we see more and more of those really big and heavy
prod houses closing and why kids that learned with their dslrs and grade with the free versions of Resolve, composite with after effects are getting more and more work?
Because they are cheap only? But some are really good. Or maybe, could it be also because the tech is evolving at such speed that it allows to do the same, faster and with less budgets and crew
than 10 years ago.

I'm not for the chaos and the averageness. But schools? It's an option, but if this is the only option recognized by this industry then I want to cry. I thought that it still existed training on set, the old school, training filming in personal prods like many of the one who are now the big boys did.
Have you ever seem those photo graduated students on set? They know nothing when they come out of school. Everything have to be re-teached to them almost from scratch except for the lightning
and the cablery. Not everyone wants to be a gaffer. Specialy in fahion (not talking about high fashion), those students don't know anything about women, about fabrics, about casting etc...
They know about equipment and know how to make it work yes, and it's only 20% of the buzz.
Most know often more technicaly than their idols, but very little have vision, guts and artistical talent.
I'm on the ones who (naively maybe) beleive that the image school is the street, not the universities.

Oh wait...now there are also supermodel schools !...Schools that teach girls to become a model. None of them are working in the high-end that I know.

In fact, the pros like you are generally going 3D as the high-end has evolved also and the gravity center of the technicity and elite is now in 3D and big broadcast events.

Recognize that it isn't very encouraging for us is the only way to enter the industry is to go to Louis Lumiere School. (the level in math requiered is very high by the way)

Now, I'd like to ask a simple question: I'd like to know how many of the current advertising gurus, the really big ones, are coming from university-motion schools?
I'd like to know how many of the greatest filmakers have followed a full master in a prestigious school dedicated to video?
How many big artists have even stepped fine-arts?

There is IMO absolutly no problem in what you say, and I understand your points. But honestly, there are not very encouraging. Yes, you may give us in fact a gift trying to make us come back to hearth,
and maybe I'll be thankfull to you later and say: Paul, you were right.
At the same time, it's quite frustrating to see a pro like you in this forum and giving such laconic infos to us, instead of that, we'd all benefit of your contributions. Example. You posted this sentence in the thread
about the BM (I copy-paste)
"That sentence alone demonstrates that whoever is trying to sell this box hasn't a clue about the requirements of the market."
Ok, fine. But...what do we do with this? A novice would immediatly ask "what are those requirements then ?"
don't you think that developping a little bit more your argumentation would also help us and help this forum to be more solid ? edit: I'm not asking you to be a teacher as you're not paid for it,
and probably have no interest nor time, I'm just asking you develop a little more your argumentation so we see clearly why you say this or that.

But rules have to be broken, and new path have to be explored.

The video of Morgan about the athlet girl would have been BBC and TVE approved IMO.
« Last Edit: August 26, 2012, 03:03:38 PM by fredjeang » Logged
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