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Author Topic: Older backs vs new DSLRs  (Read 13741 times)
TMARK
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« Reply #60 on: August 28, 2012, 09:25:12 AM »
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From a marketing perspective, and from the outside looking in on the camera market, the issue is where emotion comes into play in the user experience.  In the days of film, it was looking through those big and bright viewfinders (which is really how we relate to a cameras in a viceral way), and then again when the contacts and prints were made.  With digital, especially the backs, the emotional response is back loaded to gazing at the the sharpness of detail on a large screen away from the camera.  The experience of using the camera was (and is) secondary to the "ohh and ahh" of being able to tell the gender of a bee from 100 yards.  In other words, the camera becomes a recording device, losing the raw emotional connection that can spur creativity, at least it always did for me.

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KLaban
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« Reply #61 on: August 28, 2012, 09:49:47 AM »
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I have the same emotional response and creative spur looking through the big and bright viewfinder of an H series Hasselblad as I had looking through the big bright viewfinder of the V series. It's an emotional response and creative spur that's sadly lacking whenever I pick up a Nikon or Canon. I wish it was otherwise.
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TMARK
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« Reply #62 on: August 28, 2012, 10:15:44 AM »
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I agree, the H VF is big and bright, which is, in my opinion, one reason that camera has been successful, even with its many ergonomic and operational issues of the earlier models.  I always loved shooting them, despite the wrist breaking, muscle cramping heft of shooting all day with 55-110 in portrait, and the lock ups on the H1s.

The Canon 1ds3 and Nikon D3X have excellent viewfinders.  I reach for the 1ds3 over the 5d or D800 for this reason alone. I'd prefer to us ethe Aptus 75s/RZ combo, but that system just takes so much more time to use, shoot, and the lighting required is an order of magnitude greater, that that it stays in the Peli case.  The ds3 and d3x viewfinders could be better, of course.  I really think that if Mamiya/Phase made a new DF with a LARGE bright finder on par with the H, the camera would be much better received.
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KLaban
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« Reply #63 on: August 28, 2012, 11:54:00 AM »
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I really think that if Mamiya/Phase made a new DF with a LARGE bright finder on par with the H, the camera would be much better received.

Agreed and I'm sure many Phase users see the DF platform as the weak link. But I believe the future of and for medium format digital - or at least larger than 135 - now depends on new ideas and concepts rather than revamps on current offerings.
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FredBGG
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« Reply #64 on: August 28, 2012, 02:46:14 PM »
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I have the same emotional response and creative spur looking through the big and bright viewfinder of an H series Hasselblad as I had looking through the big bright viewfinder of the V series. It's an emotional response and creative spur that's sadly lacking whenever I pick up a Nikon or Canon. I wish it was otherwise.

I have used both, and find that both the Hasselblad H and Mamiya/Phase DF do not have adequate viewfinders.

However hasselblad is marginally better due to the two prism models. One for larger sensors and film and one for smaller sensors.

The DF prism with a 33x44 sensor is really limiting.....
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EricWHiss
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« Reply #65 on: August 28, 2012, 05:44:12 PM »
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  I really think that if Mamiya/Phase made a new DF with a LARGE bright finder on par with the H, the camera would be much better received.

Maybe, but they'd have to also figure out a way to have less VF black out time.  It goes dark for what seems like an eternity.  It's dark for a long while before actually taking the frame and then a long while after.  It's easy to loose connection to your model or whatever you shoot during this time.   Compared to the DF, the H has a wonderful finder.  I think the Hy6 is a bit better than the H but the H isn't bad at all. 

But back to DSLR's.    I recently picked up a Nikon F4 and was amazed by the finder.   Miles better that what is currently offered in the DSLR's.  If it was great in the F4, why can't Nikon make a good one now?
The big viewfinder of the MF cameras is a treat and one of the reasons why I love shooting MF.   And after using the F4, I realized how much better the DSLR's could be.
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TMARK
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« Reply #66 on: August 28, 2012, 10:31:44 PM »
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Maybe, but they'd have to also figure out a way to have less VF black out time.  It goes dark for what seems like an eternity.  It's dark for a long while before actually taking the frame and then a long while after.  It's easy to loose connection to your model or whatever you shoot during this time.   Compared to the DF, the H has a wonderful finder.  I think the Hy6 is a bit better than the H but the H isn't bad at all. 

But back to DSLR's.    I recently picked up a Nikon F4 and was amazed by the finder.   Miles better that what is currently offered in the DSLR's.  If it was great in the F4, why can't Nikon make a good one now?
The big viewfinder of the MF cameras is a treat and one of the reasons why I love shooting MF.   And after using the F4, I realized how much better the DSLR's could be.

The Mamiya has really slow electronics when used with a back.  I never understood why it didn't improve with each interation of the AFd.  There was less black out time with the AFD1 and 2 when shooting film.  Hitting teh shutter is like setting some Rube Goldberg contraption in motion until finally the mirror swings up and then down as the film advance mechanism moves.  I haven't used the DF enough to really know how it performs, and I'm surprised to hear that it isn't much better, at least from your description.  The Blad's are way better.  I'll take your word for it regarding the Hy6.  It appears wonderful. 
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TMARK
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« Reply #67 on: August 28, 2012, 10:36:38 PM »
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But back to DSLR's.    I recently picked up a Nikon F4 and was amazed by the finder.   Miles better that what is currently offered in the DSLR's.  If it was great in the F4, why can't Nikon make a good one now?
The big viewfinder of the MF cameras is a treat and one of the reasons why I love shooting MF.   And after using the F4, I realized how much better the DSLR's could be.

And this, yes, I still shoot lots of TMAX in my F4 that I've had since '88, my first pro camera I picked up for my first pro assignments for UPI.  Great viewfinder.  The F5 and the EOS 3 also had great finders.  Picking up a modern DSLR is a punishment.  Again, the D3X and DS3 have pretty good finders, but not Really Great Finders.  Its even harder after using an RZ with the waist level, even with the Aptus crop.
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EricWHiss
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« Reply #68 on: August 29, 2012, 10:39:03 AM »
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@TMARK

Yes I love TMAX 400.  Man I hope that whoever buys Kodak's film division doesn't mess that up!  I shoot it in my 4x5's, Hy6 and F4.  It's really nice in the RZ as well!   

RE: Mamiya DF... my hunch is the viewfinder black out is all about waiting for the mirror movement vibrations to die down.  Digital backs with higher and higher res probably force longer wait times so even though they've revised the body, they can't do anything about the black out - probably getting worse if anything.   I have no idea what Phase/Mamiya have up their sleeves but the new camera body has been said to be in the works.  I sort of hope for them they ditched the DF all together and went with something new.   
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Petrus
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« Reply #69 on: August 29, 2012, 01:12:15 PM »
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But back to DSLR's.    I recently picked up a Nikon F4 and was amazed by the finder.   Miles better that what is currently offered in the DSLR's.  If it was great in the F4, why can't Nikon make a good one now?
The big viewfinder of the MF cameras is a treat and one of the reasons why I love shooting MF.   And after using the F4, I realized how much better the DSLR's could be.

One reason might be the light robbing semitransparent thingies (D)SLRs now have for the 63 or something focusing spots, in the old school SLRs there was only one perfect mirror sending 100% of the light to the prism, now a great part of the light is directed to the focus systems. In the old times you had to have all the light available to focus on the matte screen, now you just need enough to frame, camera does the focusing. And does it faster and better...
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EricWHiss
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« Reply #70 on: August 29, 2012, 01:24:12 PM »
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Petrus,
FYI -   F4 had interchangeable finders and auto focus - see here: http://www.mir.com.my/rb/photography/hardwares/classics/nikonf4/prisms/index.htm
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« Reply #71 on: August 29, 2012, 03:07:31 PM »
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Having had the d3x and now the D800e i do not find much difference in the quality of the viewfinder...
but when I look through my Nikon F100 viewfinder it is so much bigger and lighter- - a joy to look through ( f4 probably better still)

Too bad new is not always better- i could do with one auto focus point that really works ...
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FredBGG
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« Reply #72 on: August 30, 2012, 01:33:26 AM »
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If you really want to see how good and bright a viewfinder can be take a look through a Fuji gx680 the the AE Anglefinder III and a Beattie screen .. and one of the 3.2 lenses.

No other SLR or MF slr comes remotely close.



Also you don't have your nose jammed up against the camera and has a damn nice eyecup.
The eyecups on the hasselblad and the pathetic eyecup of the Phase One DF are a joke.





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Rob C
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« Reply #73 on: August 30, 2012, 02:46:07 AM »
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Even better: it clearly comes complete with beautiful girl!

Rob C
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KLaban
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« Reply #74 on: August 30, 2012, 04:15:32 AM »
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...comes complete with beautiful girl...

...and team of sherpas.
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Rob C
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« Reply #75 on: August 30, 2012, 05:40:01 AM »
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...and team of sherpas.


How did Ray get into this?

Rob C
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