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Author Topic: C2PS - LR4 parametric question  (Read 16604 times)
Dave (Isle of Skye)
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« Reply #20 on: August 22, 2012, 05:24:22 PM »
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Dave,

A parting shot: here's an 18 page technical paper from Adobe's website on non-destructive editing which may appeal to your software engineering side: http://www.adobe.com/digitalimag/pdfs/non_destructive_imaging.pdf

In addition, I understand your concern about corrupt catalogs (databases).  With Lightroom there is an option to store the editing commands in the image file's xmp space (which is a separate sidecar file for raw image files), as well as in the catalog.  LR also has a robust catalog checking and backup capability.

Mark


Thanks Mark, a very interesting read and I am now even more enlightened, however I think the paragraph at the bottom of page 13 sums me up quite succinctly "Catalog-based non-destructive editing, however, is counterintuitive at first for many photographers. Until one understands how it works, moving between software programs can be mysterious and frustrating, and work might seem to disappear in the handoff..."

I know I should persevere with Lightroom as I know I am probably missing something good and the parametric editing thing was tempting me back for yet another go at it, but I just couldn't see how it was a benefit for any output files over any other software - which I still can't by the way, yes I know it allows you to tweak a non destructive view of the file ad infinitum, but the pixel crunching that goes on during output is the same as the pixel crunching in any other output I still believe.

But I think the deeper issue for me I am now realising, is being of the old DOS command line mentality, where I suppose I have become just a bit too much of a control freak with all the files on my computer, whereby I like to see and have access control over all the files, including all the hidden and system files. I also like to move my image files around and delete or duplicate them as and when I see fit and hate it when a program loads without me asking it to do so, or tells me something in my image filing system is no longer correct and needs updating and I will just have to wait until it has done its thing - didn't Vista used to do this kind of thing and didn't we all hate Vista? I also dislike having LR load the moment I put my CF card into the drive and wanting to suck my files into a folder of its choosing and naming, which again I am sure I could change in the settings if I cared to dig around. It just comes down to it that for me at least, LR is just too much of a nag and a nanny, yes it might be the best thing since sliced bread for every other photographer on the planet, but I am obviously too stuck in my ways to allow it to take the control it wants over my PC, unless it gives me back something amazing over and above PS and as yet I am still to be convinced that it would.

So as I said - I think it is best to consider me a lost cause on this one  Smiley

Dave
« Last Edit: August 22, 2012, 05:26:49 PM by Dave (Isle of Skye) » Logged

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Tony Jay
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« Reply #21 on: August 22, 2012, 06:25:00 PM »
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Wow Dave, some of the reasoning here... reminds me a bit of the wife and her headaches...

Seriously though I respect your ability to bend pixels in Ps since I have seen several excellent images that you have posted.
However, your criticisms of Lr just don't hold water:

With regard to output files the process is optimized in Lr to produce the best possible result. Things don't happen in the order that one edits so even if sharpening is the first edit applied by you in the develop module it won't be in generating the output. This is not a disadvantage. You appear to have a programming background so think of the process as analogous with optimizing compilers that generate the most efficient machine code from your C++ or whatever - the result may be surprisingly different from what you thought you had coded - it still does what you want but better!

As for your "command line" mania Lr can be set up in any way you like. Asking Lr NOT to open automatically when a CF card is inserted into the reader - simplicity itself. Where the downloaded files files go, what they are named, what folders and their names - all these things are absolutely in YOUR control. None of these things happen by default on my system - this is all far too important for my digital asset management to allow an arbitrary default approach.

Lr is actually a VERY robust piece of software because everything it does can be set up by the user in a way that complements their workflow to their ultimate satisfaction and then automated if desired for efficiency. Like you, I think, I would not want Lr to automatically apply develop module edits to my images on import, however when it comes to renaming images and organizing my images into the correct folders all of this is done via presaved "macro's" optimized for my needs. Everything that happens happens because I want it to, nothing happens if I don't want it to.
Optimizing Lr to suit individual needs is not hard - it was specifically designed with the needs of discerning and demanding photographers in mind, not programmers, so it is actually quite user friendly.

Dave, you may decide to stick with Ps for your entire postprocessing workflow, but your "excuses" why you don't want to use Lr seem to me to just reflect a desire to convince yourself rather than reflect the actual reality of how LR works.

Regards

Tony Jay
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« Reply #22 on: August 22, 2012, 06:34:19 PM »
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So as I said - I think it is best to consider me a lost cause on this one  Smiley

The thing you have to ask yourself, is: what do I know that you don't know? Why do I use Lightroom (and Photoshop) instead of a different workflow that is Photoshop "only" (implying Bridge/Camera Raw)?

Yes, I often use Bridge/Camera Raw...it's quick to browse a specific folder to see what's there. But EVERYTHING I shoot ends up in Lightroom–even if the raw file ends up being processed into Photoshop for retouching or compositing. The key is that I save the retouched image as my rendered RGB master and do all my printing from Lightroom. Why? It's a far better workflow than printing from Photoshop–which is so last millennium...

You go right along and do what you do...and I'll do what I do...whose overall workflow is optimal? You (and I) can decide...I much prefer to use a Lightroom centric workflow...because, well, it's better (for me).
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Dave (Isle of Skye)
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« Reply #23 on: August 22, 2012, 06:48:28 PM »
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Thanks Guys, I really do appreciate the effort you are all putting into pushing me in what is obviously the right direction.

I will bite the bullet one more time and set it back up on my machine and have yet another go at it - I am a bit of a stubborn old mule you know, but I will really try to be less negative this time.

Wow Dave, some of the reasoning here... reminds me a bit of the wife and her headaches...

I bet you will deny that Tony when I tell her  Grin

Thanks again.

Dave
« Last Edit: August 22, 2012, 06:52:51 PM by Dave (Isle of Skye) » Logged

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Tony Jay
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« Reply #24 on: August 22, 2012, 07:00:14 PM »
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I bet you will deny that Tony when I tell her  Grin

Luckily she has a sense of humour!

Dave feel free to post further questions to help guide you through setting up and using Lr.
There is a massive amount of expertise with Lr on the forum. Apart from Jeff Schewe and Eric Chan another name that comes to mind is John Beardy who has an unusually deep understanding of how Lr works. (Apologies to any others who are also real experts in Lr.)

You have the Lr video tutorial already but also consider downloading the DAM tutorial starring Seth Resnick.

Regards

Tony Jay
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MarkH2
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« Reply #25 on: August 23, 2012, 09:40:39 AM »
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... EVERYTHING I shoot ends up in Lightroom–even if the raw file ends up being processed into Photoshop for retouching or compositing. The key is that I save the retouched image as my rendered RGB master ...

Jeff,

Do you worry that in the (perhaps distant) future the processing engines will render today's parametric and layered images differently than they do today?  Does that prompt you to save, say, rendered and flattened TIFF files as a hedge?

Mark
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Dave (Isle of Skye)
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« Reply #26 on: August 23, 2012, 06:15:41 PM »
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You have the Lr video tutorial already but also consider downloading the DAM tutorial starring Seth Resnick.

No I haven't bought Mike and Jeff's LR tutorials. Because I've had this mental block about LR, so didn't think I would need to buy the guide. I have got so deeply into PS and for so long, that I thought what use could LR ever be to me, but as promised, I have been trying it out again today and as I am very familiar with PS and a variety of plug-ins, I can usually pick things up pretty quickly just as long as the red mist doesn't descend. So I will continue playing with it and learn it intuitively at first and then buy the tutorial in a while if and when I need to.

I am easing myself into it by using it more as a replacement for bridge at the moment, which is fairly painless.

Dave
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« Reply #27 on: August 23, 2012, 07:04:14 PM »
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Do you worry that in the (perhaps distant) future the processing engines will render today's parametric and layered images differently than they do today?  Does that prompt you to save, say, rendered and flattened TIFF files as a hedge?

Nope...I don't really worry about that for several reasons, one of which is that as raw processing keeps getting better and better, I actually go back on reprocess older images when needed. I'm not really concerned about preserving an older look. As far as layered files, are you referring to Photoshop? I doubt that Photoshop will change the look of an older layered file and I can open an image produced in Photoshop 2 from early 1992 in Photoshop CS6. Course, there weren't "layers" in version 2...going backwards would of course be impossible :~)
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MarkH2
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« Reply #28 on: August 23, 2012, 07:50:12 PM »
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...I can usually pick things up pretty quickly just as long as the red mist doesn't descend. So I will continue playing with it and learn it intuitively at first and then buy the tutorial in a while if and when I need to.

I am easing myself into it by using it more as a replacement for bridge at the moment, which is fairly painless.

Dave

I don't find everything in LR to be intuitive; maybe it's my engineering background.  This may be presumptuous, but here's a couple hints.  Using LR as a replacement for Bridge is not a bad way to start.  To edit in Photoshop: right click on an image in the Library, then select Edit In / Open as Smart Object in Photoshop (which lets you get to ACR as usual).

After editing in PS you might want to save the result in the same folder as the source.  Upon return to LR your file may not be in the catalog.  Easy way to get it there: in the folders panel on the left, right click on your folder and select Synchronize Folder, then follow prompts.

P.S.  Beautiful Misty Isle shots on your site!
« Last Edit: August 23, 2012, 10:30:14 PM by MarkH2 » Logged
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« Reply #29 on: August 24, 2012, 12:52:33 PM »
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...As far as layered files, are you referring to Photoshop? I doubt that Photoshop will change the look of an older layered file and I can open an image produced in Photoshop 2 from early 1992 in Photoshop CS6. Course, there weren't "layers" in version 2...going backwards would of course be impossible :~)

I was referring to Photoshop regarding layered files, considering both the PS processing engine and ACR used for smart object layers containing raw (or jpg etc.) images.

OK, I'm convinced.  Adobe is firmly committed to backward compatibility, and even if Adobe is someday taken down a different path, there will be preservation choices.  After all, we can still hear old 78 recordings without a Victrola.
« Last Edit: August 24, 2012, 12:58:58 PM by MarkH2 » Logged
Dave (Isle of Skye)
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« Reply #30 on: August 28, 2012, 04:58:39 AM »
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I don't find everything in LR to be intuitive; maybe it's my engineering background.  This may be presumptuous, but here's a couple hints.  Using LR as a replacement for Bridge is not a bad way to start.  To edit in Photoshop: right click on an image in the Library, then select Edit In / Open as Smart Object in Photoshop (which lets you get to ACR as usual).

After editing in PS you might want to save the result in the same folder as the source.  Upon return to LR your file may not be in the catalog.  Easy way to get it there: in the folders panel on the left, right click on your folder and select Synchronize Folder, then follow prompts.

P.S.  Beautiful Misty Isle shots on your site!

Hi Mark,

Thanks for the heads-up and I am still only dipping my toe into LR, because as I think you can see from the images on my website (and thank you very much for your comments, much appreciated), I had already developed quite a solid and repeatable workflow, that I have grown more than comfortable with sans LR, so I suppose it all comes down to that single question - will LR add anything to my workflow?

Dave
« Last Edit: August 28, 2012, 05:17:06 AM by Dave (Isle of Skye) » Logged

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