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Author Topic: Are Museums Destroying Art?  (Read 18195 times)
petercook80
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« Reply #120 on: August 31, 2012, 01:41:28 AM »
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The insult is to tell me I'm not worthy of viewing a masterpiece unless I bow on somber knees.
Arrogance and snobbery - that is what the article is all about.
But no one was telling you that you were not worthy, you have invented that, and if you want to pursue a debate on something you have invented then that's sad. And if you feel you have not invented it then hey 'Welcome to Planet Earth'
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petercook80
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« Reply #121 on: August 31, 2012, 01:59:23 AM »
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Others are trying to tell me how I should enjoy viewing the Mona Lisa or some other masterpiece. I reject that. That they consider their approach the only right approach is snobbery, and nothing else.

Well take some of your own advice, stuff you don't like sometimes happens, as you say 'Welcome to Planet Earth' 
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Rob C
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« Reply #122 on: August 31, 2012, 02:44:00 AM »
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What if someone deems that you are cat poop and bans you from the throne room?
I will never set foot in France. No desire to go there, but I would like to see what the Mona Lisa looks like. Maybe also the next great masterpiece as well. You can claim there are reproductions of the Mona Lisa all over and therefore no need for others to take their photos, too. Now say the same for Old Faithful in Yellowstone. Say the same for General Sherman in Yosemite. Say the same for the Grand Canyon, or Red Rock Canyon. The Statue of Liuberty has been taken from every possible angle, so why do people still take their own pictures?
Others are trying to tell me how I should enjoy viewing the Mona Lisa or some other masterpiece. I reject that. That they consider their approach the only right approach is snobbery, and nothing else.



If you see even a vague similarity betwen an enclosed room, required behaviour in a room and the Grand Canyon, there's no point in further debate. (As for the Statue of Liberty, why do you think the French got rid of it? Really, you can go to France - they won't be hoping you'll return it.)

Rob C
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Publius
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« Reply #123 on: September 01, 2012, 01:33:34 AM »
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Is this guy for real!? Huh

For real. Never had the desire. Never will. There are plenty of other places in the world I'd rather see in my limited time left on Earth. France does not make the cut. Most of Europe is too far down on the list to make any trip there a reasonable expectation. Lots of places in South America, Africa, Australia, ... all yet to be explored. I really do not see much time left to go to France. I'd rather revisit many places in North America and New Zealand before heading to Europe. To each their own.

If you see even a vague similarity betwen an enclosed room, required behaviour in a room and the Grand Canyon, there's no point in further debate. (As for the Statue of Liberty, why do you think the French got rid of it? Really, you can go to France - they won't be hoping you'll return it.)

Rob C
If you cannot see even a vague similarity between the two, you are right, there is no use in discussing this intelligently with you. Are not both masterpieces? Are not both public places? btw, France kept a copy of Miss Liberty. Perhaps you need to go to France and see that one. Take a picture for me when you do. Remember, no flashes or annoying autofocus lights. You might ruin the view of some snob.
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petercook80
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« Reply #124 on: September 01, 2012, 02:13:59 AM »
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If you cannot see even a vague similarity between the two, you are right, there is no use in discussing this intelligently with you. Are not both masterpieces? Are not both public places?
You have, as it seems usual, missed the entire point of Rob C's comment, or chosen to miss the point.

Why oh why do you persist in claiming this is a class thing or snobbery, its opinions and preferences nothing else. Stop trying to make it into anything else because its not.

In one of your posts you say "Others are trying to tell me how I should enjoy viewing the Mona Lisa or some other masterpiece. I reject that. That they consider their approach the only right approach is snobbery, and nothing else." and yet your trying to say your way is right and your opinion is what everyone else should follow and put up with.

In another you say "The insult is to tell me I'm not worthy of viewing a masterpiece unless I bow on somber knees. Arrogance and snobbery - that is what the article is all about." and again your trying to say your way is right and everyone else's opinion is wrong.

Arrogance ? I think you need to look in the mirror when it comes to that.

This is just about the opinions of people as to how they would prefer to enjoy a museum, they differ. I can accept your are different to mine and the debate has not changed yours or mine and that's okay, I can live with that. Can you?
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David Hufford
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« Reply #125 on: September 01, 2012, 05:57:25 AM »
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For real. Never had the desire. Never will. There are plenty of other places in the world I'd rather see in my limited time left on Earth. France does not make the cut. Most of Europe is too far down on the list to make any trip there a reasonable expectation. Lots of places in South America, Africa, Australia, ... all yet to be explored. I really do not see much time left to go to France. I'd rather revisit many places in North America and New Zealand before heading to Europe. To each their own.
If you cannot see even a vague similarity between the two, you are right, there is no use in discussing this intelligently with you. Are not both masterpieces? Are not both public places? btw, France kept a copy of Miss Liberty. Perhaps you need to go to France and see that one. Take a picture for me when you do. Remember, no flashes or annoying autofocus lights. You might ruin the view of some snob.

Before I saw your list of places you might visit, I was going to mention that you might have to cross Japan off your list, as very, very few museums allow photography inside, especially using flash. Many temples and shrine prohibit it too. perhaps as much for the preservation of atmosphere as anything else.

I must have been away too long, as I didn't think the whole subject was so controversial. As I recall, many museums prohibited or at least restricted photography at one time (in the US). How things have changed.

(I suppose I should add that I have not been to every museum or temple or shrine in Japan, nor have I taken a detailed survey. I am speaking only of my experience mainly in Tokyo and occasional forays to Kyoto.)
« Last Edit: September 01, 2012, 06:12:05 AM by David Hufford » Logged

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Publius
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« Reply #126 on: September 01, 2012, 05:34:44 PM »
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You have, as it seems usual, missed the entire point of Rob C's comment, or chosen to miss the point.

Why oh why do you persist in claiming this is a class thing or snobbery, its opinions and preferences nothing else. Stop trying to make it into anything else because its not.

In one of your posts you say "Others are trying to tell me how I should enjoy viewing the Mona Lisa or some other masterpiece. I reject that. That they consider their approach the only right approach is snobbery, and nothing else." and yet your trying to say your way is right and your opinion is what everyone else should follow and put up with.

In another you say "The insult is to tell me I'm not worthy of viewing a masterpiece unless I bow on somber knees. Arrogance and snobbery - that is what the article is all about." and again your trying to say your way is right and everyone else's opinion is wrong.

Arrogance ? I think you need to look in the mirror when it comes to that.

This is just about the opinions of people as to how they would prefer to enjoy a museum, they differ. I can accept your are different to mine and the debate has not changed yours or mine and that's okay, I can live with that. Can you?
Back to the original article, saying that photography of masterpieces cheapens the experience. The author's opinion, for certain, but snobbery as well. You are keying off the flashes and autofocus assists. I'm calling the entire idea that only those viewing the original can really experience the work as intended is a full barrel of snobbery. Otherwise, put down your camera, and never take another two-dimensional image of a three dimensional world.

Before I saw your list of places you might visit, I was going to mention that you might have to cross Japan off your list, as very, very few museums allow photography inside, especially using flash. Many temples and shrine prohibit it too. perhaps as much for the preservation of atmosphere as anything else.

I must have been away too long, as I didn't think the whole subject was so controversial. As I recall, many museums prohibited or at least restricted photography at one time (in the US). How things have changed.

(I suppose I should add that I have not been to every museum or temple or shrine in Japan, nor have I taken a detailed survey. I am speaking only of my experience mainly in Tokyo and occasional forays to Kyoto.)
Japan does not hold any more interest to me than France, with the exception of some northern islands. Highly unlikely I would spend much time in a Japanese museum or temple.

But you bring in interesting point to the discussion. I would never waltz through a church, synagogue, temple, shrine taking photographs without permission, and I would be unlikely to even request that permission. The subject matter does not interest me in religious institutions outside my faith, and within my faith, I have no need to photograph it. Is it those so sensitive to the issue within a museum are regarding those museums as near religious places?
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Slobodan Blagojevic
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« Reply #127 on: September 01, 2012, 07:02:53 PM »
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... Is it those so sensitive to the issue within a museum are regarding those museums as near religious places?

Yes. Absolutely, unequivocally, yes.

And to repeat what was quoted a few posts above, from Miguel Zugaza, director of the Prado museum:

"...I don't think one needs to abandon the idea that the museum is a little bit like a temple, or a sanctuary..."

Although I am not religious, I do respect those who are and their places of worship, for their cultural, historical and civilizational significance. I would enter churches with utmost respect, quietly, obeying whatever rules they impose.

Is it too much to ask that those who do not think that highly of art show similar respect for those of us who do (and our places of worship)?
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« Reply #128 on: September 01, 2012, 09:25:54 PM »
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Of one thing I am certain: that there is more than one way of beholding and appreciating art. Contemplation might also allow participation or celebration?
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Christopher Sanderson
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« Reply #129 on: September 02, 2012, 03:33:45 AM »
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I don't know how people behaved in museums in the past, but I read somewher that at the time the great, now-known-as-classical, compositions were first performed, around 200-300 years ago, the typical audience in a typical concert hall would not have been so rigidly anal as to sit silently upright, paying full attention to the music, and expressing annoyance at any near-by member of the audience uttering a sound.

In the olden days, people brought food and wine into the concert hall and had a good natter and chat whilst the music was playing.
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stamper
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« Reply #130 on: September 02, 2012, 04:15:44 AM »
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And threw food at the performers along with horse shit....or something similar? This issue hasn't - along with most others on here - an answer. Noise level is subjective. Perhaps the ones complaining can turn down their hearing aids a little? Wink
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Publius
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« Reply #131 on: September 02, 2012, 08:25:01 PM »
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Yes. Absolutely, unequivocally, yes.

And to repeat what was quoted a few posts above, from Miguel Zugaza, director of the Prado museum:

"...I don't think one needs to abandon the idea that the museum is a little bit like a temple, or a sanctuary..."

Although I am not religious, I do respect those who are and their places of worship, for their cultural, historical and civilizational significance. I would enter churches with utmost respect, quietly, obeying whatever rules they impose.

Is it too much to ask that those who do not think that highly of art show similar respect for those of us who do (and our places of worship)?
Museums are monuments to man. That is not something I worship. I choose to worship God's creations in nature. You have a right to worship whatever you choose.

But let's examine what you wrote: "obeying whatever rules they impose" - When permitted photography, tourist do.  The curator (aka, your clergy) has blessed those tourists with permissions to use cameras and flashes.

If you wish to be the modern Martin Luther of Man Worshippers, go ahead and form your own temples and sanctuaries of your own hand. Build them, and deny your photographer friends from bringing in their disrespectful tools of copying and artistic expressions. Perhaps dress each entering in drab clothing to not distract others from the colors in the paintings. But why impose your rules on the curators given the true responsibilities of preserving these man-made artistic impression to more of the present and future generations? You can collect the masterpieces for a price and display them as you deem fit for eternity.
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Slobodan Blagojevic
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« Reply #132 on: September 02, 2012, 08:51:39 PM »
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... 200-300 years ago, the typical audience... brought food and wine into the concert hall and had a good natter and chat whilst the music was playing.

And threw food at the performers along with horse shit....

2,000-3,000 years ago, the typical audience would, with a flip of a thumb, have performers killed. Several hundred years ago, the typical audience would enjoy burning performers (a.k.a. witches) alive.

What's your point guys?
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Slobodan

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« Reply #133 on: September 02, 2012, 09:20:23 PM »
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But why impose your rules on the curators given the true responsibilities of preserving these man-made artistic impression to more of the present and future generations? You can collect the masterpieces for a price and display them as you deem fit for eternity.

Remember those enormous statues that were once part of our world heritage list, but clergyman of an unspecified religion decided that blowing them up was better suited to our spiritual well being?

Considering that blowing up stuff is more-or-less the number one mass entertainment feature on our mass entertainment medium of choice (TV), could I perhaps suggest we video tape the explosion of some of those crappy paintings as well as the buildings they reside in. Solves the entire problem.
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Oscar Rysdyk
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« Reply #134 on: September 02, 2012, 11:28:32 PM »
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[ I would enter churches with utmost respect, quietly, obeying whatever rules they impose.

Is it too much to ask that those who do not think that highly of art show similar respect for those of us who do (and our places of worship)?]
[/quote]

Slobodan again writes commonsense. And plain good manners. (Manners - the art of making those around you comfortable.)

The sheer arrogance of the self-entitled brigade is breathtaking; there is no decorum they must follow, no interruption of their self-expression to be tolerated though it interferes with everyone else's experience.

Try that at another shrine encompassing the past - maybe Arlington National Cemetery's Tomb of the Unkown American Soldier; the immature and self-entitled will soon be shut up in no uncertain manner - it shocks them back to reality, and allows others to experience the place unmolested by their uneducated poor form.


                       
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kencameron
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« Reply #135 on: September 02, 2012, 11:32:24 PM »
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Contemplation might also allow participation or celebration?
Absolutely. And maybe also dissent. I won't be making any of the current multiple exhibitions of Damien Hirst's spot paintings, but I have seen a couple of them (the paintings) in the past, and if I were at one of the exhibitions, I would be tempted to (respectfully) roll my eyes. I hope this wouldn't interfere with anyone else's need to quietly contemplate. Historically, vigorous dissent has been an entirely legitimate part of the public response to a lot of paintings, from the Impressionists and Fauves to the Armory Show.
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Ray
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« Reply #136 on: September 03, 2012, 12:42:26 AM »
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2,000-3,000 years ago, the typical audience would, with a flip of a thumb, have performers killed. Several hundred years ago, the typical audience would enjoy burning performers (a.k.a. witches) alive.

What's your point guys?


I think Stamper is referring to Vaudeville and Pantomime. My idea of having a good meal and a few glasses of fine wine whilst appreciating fine art, I think is very civilised.  Grin
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stamper
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« Reply #137 on: September 03, 2012, 02:57:08 AM »
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I think Stamper is referring to Vaudeville and Pantomime. My idea of having a good meal and a few glasses of fine wine whilst appreciating fine art, I think is very civilised.  Grin

Correct! It looks as if I will have to copy and quote everything in future to make sure it isn't misconstrued - deliberately or otherwise - to keep the thread civilised. Now if the posters wanting less noise will stop making a racket of their own this thread should terminate soon by it's own volition instead of the administrator bringing it to an abrupt end? Smiley
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Rob C
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« Reply #138 on: September 03, 2012, 04:55:53 AM »
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I guess that everything on the Internet eventually dies from high doses of impasse.

The secret to mental, not to mention spiritual survival is to know when that point's been reached, and to give up wasting one's time any further.

I'm out.

Rob C
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