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Author Topic: Pentax reduces the price of the 645D to 8800 USD  (Read 19403 times)
EricWHiss
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« Reply #20 on: September 03, 2012, 11:43:01 PM »
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Fred,
Maybe just the CCD's you've used?  Ability to lift shadows is great but if when you lift the shadows you don't get detail in the darkest areas and they just go from black to a clean grey doesn't mean the cameras got stellar DR. 
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BernardLanguillier
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« Reply #21 on: September 04, 2012, 04:28:07 AM »
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Fred,
Maybe just the CCD's you've used?  Ability to lift shadows is great but if when you lift the shadows you don't get detail in the darkest areas and they just go from black to a clean grey doesn't mean the cameras got stellar DR. 

The D800's shadows do contain a lot of information.

Cheers,
Bernard
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EricWHiss
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« Reply #22 on: September 04, 2012, 10:27:19 AM »
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Bernard,
We made a comparison in my studio of D800 vs Aptus 12.  No question the d800 shadows can be lifted, perhaps more than the aptus, however I would not say the d800 has more DR.  It looks like the aptus 12 has a bit more... maybe 1/2 a stop.  That's what Imatest says also, when I used the RAW sample someone here supplied of the stouffer transmissive step wedge against the one I shot with the aptus 12.   Hard to be exact when the two files were shot by different people but it seems clear to me.   I think the d800e gets lots of detail, but lacks good color tonality and also presence compared to the MF.   I'd be surprised if the Pentax didn't also have better DR and color.
Eric
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FredBGG
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« Reply #23 on: September 04, 2012, 03:42:24 PM »
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Bernard,
We made a comparison in my studio of D800 vs Aptus 12.  No question the d800 shadows can be lifted, perhaps more than the aptus, however I would not say the d800 has more DR.  It looks like the aptus 12 has a bit more... maybe 1/2 a stop.  That's what Imatest says also, when I used the RAW sample someone here supplied of the stouffer transmissive step wedge against the one I shot with the aptus 12.   Hard to be exact when the two files were shot by different people but it seems clear to me.   I think the d800e gets lots of detail, but lacks good color tonality and also presence compared to the MF.   I'd be surprised if the Pentax didn't also have better DR and color.
Eric


Not exactly the way to go about a test... shot at different locations and not physically the same target.
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LKaven
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« Reply #24 on: September 04, 2012, 09:32:17 PM »
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What makes you think a CMOS can't go to a 16 bit file.

Nikon d800 sensor gets more dynamic range than and CCD......

You could of course have a 16-bit file but you would still only have 14 data bits.

The D800 sensor achieves 13.23 Ev of per-pixel engineering DR according to DxO. 

Getting another two full stops out of this, to merit 16 data bits, is not going to be easy.  Quantum efficiency is already above 50%.  If you put those same Exmor pixels into a MF sensor, the per-pixel DR, all that matters for raw, is still 13.23 Ev. 

This is not to say that a MF Exmor type sensor would not be a major advance in photographic quality overall.  The print (as opposed to per-pixel) DR would be impressive.  But thermal noise would be a problem at high gain settings I'd wager.
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EricWHiss
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« Reply #25 on: September 04, 2012, 10:47:14 PM »
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Not exactly the way to go about a test... shot at different locations and not physically the same target.
Fred,
It's a lot better than shooting a mailbox or fence or whatever it was... was it a lamp post?   Cheesy    Just joking with you. Trust me, I made many comparisons with a model in studio using the same lights and both cameras. 

And I also did the imatest comparison too.  The person who posted the d800 raw did a decent job of shooting the target (actually Bernard was that you?) , but still since I didn't do both from start I decided to not post the results.  I don't own a D800 or D800e so can't repeat.  I do own an AFi-ii 12 and a CF 528 multishot.   There are a lot of variables to fiddle with - which RAW converter is just one.   But still everyone should do their own tests for their own purposes.   All I can say is I was ready to buy a D800 to use for some work, but decided to wait after seeing the look.  As you know from our e-mails, instead I may get a fuji 680iii and use my CF 528 on it.

Eric
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BernardLanguillier
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« Reply #26 on: September 05, 2012, 01:33:01 AM »
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The person who posted the d800 raw did a decent job of shooting the target (actually Bernard was that you?) ,

Certainly not, I would not devote even a second to shooting targets.  Wink

Cheers,
Bernard
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Radu Arama
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« Reply #27 on: September 05, 2012, 05:56:57 AM »
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A very expensive lens but like no other in the MF world. Wink

Radu
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tsjanik
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« Reply #28 on: September 05, 2012, 07:02:15 AM »
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A very expensive lens but like no other in the MF world. Wink

Radu

Details?   Huh
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Radu Arama
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« Reply #29 on: September 05, 2012, 09:28:43 AM »
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I cannot say much (the press release comes online on 9/11) but if that is what Ricoh has in mind with Pentax I predict a dramatic shift from the "poor man's MF system" to "state of the art MF system" in a few years.

Best regards,
Radu

Details?   Huh
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EricWHiss
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« Reply #30 on: September 05, 2012, 10:23:45 AM »
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Certainly not, I would not devote even a second to shooting targets.  Wink

Cheers,
Bernard


Well one doesn't reach their best without understanding their tools limits (and their own).  I'm sure you have your own ways of making comparisons.  Wink
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ManfredS
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« Reply #31 on: September 05, 2012, 01:35:59 PM »
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Sounds like a tilt-shift lense, right?  Grin
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Radu Arama
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« Reply #32 on: September 05, 2012, 02:21:13 PM »
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No!  Wink

That's the problem; some people think that Pentax should make quasi identical stuff to other MF companies just cheaper yet it seems to me they already chose the path of making what you cannot find elsewhere regardless of price. Like I said before (then I was just making a supposition) this lens is on paper an extremely ambitious design and with a Leica like price tag. If it delivers in the real world I can only conclude that Pentax wants to offer the best price/performance ratio and aims to do it not by lowering the price but by offering the best performance there is.

Because I am not sadistic by nature  Grin I will tell you that:

1) It covers the full frame of 645 film;
2) This (and the new supertelephoto 560mm for Pentax DSRL) will inaugurate a new state of the art nano coatings developed by Pentax. Considering the track record of SMC and Aero Bright Coating I expect great performance;
3) It will be without any doubt the most versatile lens in the MF world and in combination with 645D2 will open up new applications impossible now for MF users. I can only sincerely hope that the other big companies that make MF gear will implement the same technologies and will compete.

BR,
Radu

Sounds like a tilt-shift lense, right?  Grin
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ManfredS
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« Reply #33 on: September 05, 2012, 03:03:26 PM »
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it's a pity, I would kill for a tilt-shift lense for my 645D. But let's see what suprise Pentax will offer us.
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Radu Arama
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« Reply #34 on: September 05, 2012, 04:23:45 PM »
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Looks like you will get away "without" murder!  Grin

it's a pity, I would kill for a tilt-shift lense for my 645D. But let's see what suprise Pentax will offer us.
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tsjanik
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« Reply #35 on: September 05, 2012, 04:26:30 PM »
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.................I predict a dramatic shift from the "poor man's MF system" ..............

Hi Radu:

Rather I think of the 645D as a comparatively affordable MF camera with modern DSLR features.  Producing state-of the-art and cutting edge products (e.g. 25mm) is admirable and consistent with a company that made a 800mm ED lens for a 67 camera; however, Pentax had excellent affordable offerings as well – I hope they don’t forget that tradition.

Tom
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Radu Arama
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« Reply #36 on: September 05, 2012, 05:50:49 PM »
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Hi Tom,

Indeed Pentax was an affordable option in the past but how much of that was due to the Yen/USD exchange rate? It would be very interesting if someone could compare the ratio between let's say a Hasselblad system of a camera + some lenses vs. a Pentax one with technical specs as close as possible let's say in the 90's and how much is today. My hunch is that Pentax is much more "affordable" today relatively speaking. And one more thing: even if two lenses are let's say the very same focal and aperture it is unfair to compare a 5 or 6 elements one with a much better corrected modern design since the later has inherently a lot more 1000 USD/kilo optical glass in it.

Just my 2 eurocents,
Radu


Hi Radu:

Rather I think of the 645D as a comparatively affordable MF camera with modern DSLR features.  Producing state-of the-art and cutting edge products (e.g. 25mm) is admirable and consistent with a company that made a 800mm ED lens for a 67 camera; however, Pentax had excellent affordable offerings as well – I hope they don’t forget that tradition.

Tom

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tsjanik
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« Reply #37 on: September 05, 2012, 07:14:40 PM »
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Radu:

Yes the diminishing USD is responsible for price increases, but that wasn’t my point.  When the 645D was introduced, a new wide angle was an immediate need.   Pentax chose to introduce a extraordinarily wide and expensive lens for the 645 format.  A 30mm f/4.5 would have been easier, less expensive and a better seller – the 25mm could have come later.  Based on your comments, the 90mm will also be a spectacular, but an expensive lens as well.

Just my two US cents (currently worth somewhat less than before),

Tom
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Radu Arama
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« Reply #38 on: September 06, 2012, 06:20:55 AM »
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Hi again Tom,

I agree with most of what you said but on the other hand resources must be prioritized. IMHO the best course of action for Pentax  would of been to make available worldwide the FA 645 lenses (not only in Japan, Asia, Europe and maybe Canada?) because most of them perform well enough and cost reasonable amounts of money. Being able to buy then new and with warranty means a lot for the user's peace of mind. But if I ran Pentax I would not invest (in the first phase at least) 1 Yen in developing "meh lenses". Why make a new 30/4.5 when they already have a very respected 35/3.5?

BR,
Radu

Radu:

Yes the diminishing USD is responsible for price increases, but that wasn’t my point.  When the 645D was introduced, a new wide angle was an immediate need.   Pentax chose to introduce a extraordinarily wide and expensive lens for the 645 format.  A 30mm f/4.5 would have been easier, less expensive and a better seller – the 25mm could have come later.  Based on your comments, the 90mm will also be a spectacular, but an expensive lens as well.

Just my two US cents (currently worth somewhat less than before),

Tom

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Radu Arama
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« Reply #39 on: September 07, 2012, 11:46:40 AM »
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Here you  have it:

1) Also a Macro lens not just optimised for portraiture;
2) A new state of the art coatings (HD);
3) First lens in the MF world to have optical stabilisation.

BR,
Radu

http://photorumors.com/2012/09/07/pentax-q-15-45mm-f2-8-fa645-macro-90mm-f2-8-and-da18-270mm-f3-5-6-3-sdm-lenses-leaked/
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