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Author Topic: Nikon D4 Passes but the D800 Fails the EBU/BBC Broadcast Quality Test  (Read 11793 times)
Sareesh Sudhakaran
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« Reply #20 on: September 07, 2012, 11:17:16 PM »
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Nikon D800 used in Dexter and Wilfred. That figures!
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« Reply #21 on: September 07, 2012, 11:37:44 PM »
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I love the R1's, the Scarlet I almost sold, then think well, Red is good at finally getting there with firmware updates, but I use the R-1's most of the time.
...
Second bottom line is I'll take two RED1's around the world (done that) and not worry.  I'll even take an R1 and a Scarlet around the world (done that) and not worry because I always have the R1.

IMO

BC

The new Dragon update, whenever it finally hits, should boost Scarlet's capabilities - if the Epic example is anything to go by. Do you use a Red rocket for dailies and such?
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« Reply #22 on: September 08, 2012, 01:42:27 AM »
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The new Dragon update, whenever it finally hits, should boost Scarlet's capabilities - if the Epic example is anything to go by. Do you use a Red rocket for dailies and such?

I'm not unhappy with the Scarlet Sensor.   It already seems a stop faster than the R-1's which seem to top out at 1,000 iso or so.

I just think it looks kind of flat and video like where the R1's just look different and I think prettier out of camera and with grading.

Also the Scarlet starts up 10 times faster is a few pounds to 5 lbs. lighter, does have semi functional autofocus if the subject is still and allows Canon lenses as well as PL's, though no Nikon mount.

What I don't like is the Glossy screen which I find very problematic and the touch screen navigation when your in a hurry is kind of goofy, but it does work.

I do have a hard time getting past the mini sound jacks instead of xlr's of any size.   There are adapters by RED and others that allow xlr to the mini jacks for less stress on the wires when shooting, or in RED's case a an i/o module for $3,750 that fits on the back of the camera to give xlr in and out which adds to the weight and size of the camera, almost the size of the R-1.    

So at the end of the day, the $14,000 camera becomes a $20,000 camera by the time you add larger batteries and the SSd module and you have to have large SSD on camera storage for any RED because of the files size, which is large but less than some non compressed 4:2:2 alternatives.

Though as I said R-1's are falling out of the trees at good prices.

The Scarlet and Epic are set up to be modular cameras which is good because you can update without changing the whole camera, though as you said every hardware change and update on RED is expensive, though firmware and software updates and changes are free.

We usually one light grade and process with the RED rocket cards.  One in a desktop that is pretty much one to one fast and gives up to 4k resolution if required.  One is in a portable box, nested in our DIT station which has two powerbooks, drives, APS backup, even fans and keyboard lights.

The portable RED rocket does only 2k but once again one light out at real time.  All RED rockets let you scrub or play the footage in real time.

If I'm on a computer without a REd Rocket card and the clips are short and the computer has a good video card, I'll just process them out there as it's not brutal in transcoding time, just not real time.

All of the RED's take some time to learn the setup and menus.  The R-1 menu seems clunky at first but I think is easier and more thought out than the scarlet and I feel very secure that everything is locked and stays locked on the R-1.

The Scarlet which is touch screen sometimes has some slow movements in settings and it's easy to hit a spot and not lock a setting or set up something wrong.

The R-1 I learned in a day, the Scarlet is the only camera I've every owned (still or motion) where I had to read the complete manual.

The Scarlet has some glitches . . .  Red is good though and has a new firmware update almost weekly and they updates are listed as Beta or ready for production, so there are few glitches.  RED is also very good with service, though can be slow and some of RED's business practices in how they accept payment and wait lists can be trying.

Compare RED to Sony's 4k or even the Arri, both of which are very expensive, or Sony's less expensive new 4k camera that is said to shoot uncompressed which can be nightmarish on data storage.

Then you have Canon, whose new 4k camera body starts at $30,000 and well, RED still seems like a good deal.   Maybe not a bargain, but a good deal.

For some reason RED is polarizing.  People love them or hate them but like the man said, you can't deny them.

End of the day RED is a very serious film maker's company.  There cameras and truly innovative, priced very reasonable in the film world.  

RED opened the door for film makers to use real film making cameras at high end still camera prices.  They really did change the game and the whole RED process may change from thought to final but the end product is very well thought out from capture to output and RED shows no sign of making any camera obsolete just for the sake of forcing anyone to a new camera.  

That I find refreshing in the digital world.


IMO

BC
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Sareesh Sudhakaran
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« Reply #23 on: September 09, 2012, 12:30:52 AM »
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That's an excellent real world review. I did work with the Red One early last year and was blown away. I want to try the Epic but none of the projects I do warrant it, unfortunately.


I do have a hard time getting past the mini sound jacks instead of xlr's of any size.   There are adapters by RED and others that allow xlr to the mini jacks for less stress on the wires when shooting, or in RED's case a an i/o module for $3,750 that fits on the back of the camera to give xlr in and out which adds to the weight and size of the camera, almost the size of the R-1.    

I hate TRS connectors on anything that moves or gets stepped on. It's good for the studio, but not on the field.

You could try using a DI box like this one from Radial. This is a device that cuts down on unnecessary crackles or pops due to ground loops. An impedence matched box will connect to your amp or recorder.

Otherwise the best way afaik is to keep the jacks clean and avoid touching or moving them - but that's not totally practical on a day to day basis.

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We usually one light grade and process with the RED rocket cards.  One in a desktop that is pretty much one to one fast and gives up to 4k resolution if required.  One is in a portable box, nested in our DIT station which has two powerbooks, drives, APS backup, even fans and keyboard lights.

The portable RED rocket does only 2k but once again one light out at real time.  All RED rockets let you scrub or play the footage in real time.

If I'm on a computer without a REd Rocket card and the clips are short and the computer has a good video card, I'll just process them out there as it's not brutal in transcoding time, just not real time.

Can you share your desktop specs? What kind of read/write performance (in MB/s) do you get with it? Is it on a RAID?

My current home setup is in desperate need of an overhaul. I don't use it for professional work, but I'd like to play with 4K footage in real time if I can!

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For some reason RED is polarizing.  People love them or hate them but like the man said, you can't deny them.

IMO

BC

Yes, definitely. Red has been an inspiration when others had gone to sleep. But the giants have woken up now.

And Red has answered with the Dragon update, and a monochrome camera - that's potentially 8K if the Leica M Monochrom analogy were to apply.
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« Reply #24 on: September 09, 2012, 12:07:03 PM »
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That's an excellent real world review. I did work with the Red One early last year and was blown away. I want to try the Epic but none of the projects I do warrant it, unfortunately.

snip.

Can you share your desktop specs? What kind of read/write performance (in MB/s) do you get with it? Is it on a RAID?

My current home setup is in desperate need of an overhaul. I don't use it for professional work, but I'd like to play with 4K footage in real time if I can!

Yes, definitely. Red has been an inspiration when others had gone to sleep. But the giants have woken up now.

And Red has answered with the Dragon update, and a monochrome camera - that's potentially 8K if the Leica M Monochrom analogy were to apply.



I've never used an Epic so can't say really anything about it, though I believe it's exactly the same form factor and lcd as the Scarlet, which some parts I like, some I don't.

I know a lot of dps have moved to the Epic and some back to an R1 or an Arri for the "look" and "look can cover a lot of territory in motion imagery.

When I ordered an Epic and it was ready to ship, I changed my mind and went with one more RED 1 and a Scarlet.  I looked at the Specs of the Epic and it's native sensor is 2:1 instead of 16x9 so cropped 16x9 your not at 5k your at around 4.5 K or something like that.

You can go to 120 fps which is the one benefit of the Epic, though I've needed that like two times and the R1 will go to 60 fps with 3k.   

So the only benefit I saw from an R-1 to an Epic was fps, and there a lot lot of ways to get to slow motion.   Even the weight is not that much different as a stripped down R1 weighs a little over 8lbs, with Nikon mount Zeiss and a Canon mount Scarlet/Epic comes it at 5 lbs.

2k, 3k, 4k, 5k, not many films at any level on any device or medium are playing at 4k and I've seen 4k production on a first class Hollywood screen and honestly once they go through the digital intermediate with effects, grading etc. etc., I couldn't tell that it was 4k.   It wasn't a Eureka moment for me

though I'm sure Ill eventually have clients ask for 4k, in the broadcast world I don't think 4k will be mainstream for another decade.  Look how long it took to switch to Hi-def (in it's many flavors) and looked how dumb down the translation and transmission is on cable or satellite,.


I bought a Scarlet not to be a poor man's epic, but to be a smaller form factor and was hoping for better autofocus. 

I think the world of RED's innovations but given what we shoot and how we shoot, if I had the perfect camera it would be a Sony FS 100 with a RED sensor (or a Sony with better color and not so ambient sensitive).

I don't even mind the build quality of the fS 100 because except for my R-1's I don't think any of these cameras are built for the long term and I'd love to see some real innovation on focus pulling like face detection tracking.

Actually the FS100 will track focus the best of any camera I've used, but that's not to say it's perfect, just real good in a pinch.


As far as computers, I don't have the exact specs in front of me, but they range from one early intel quad core box to two of the next to latest 12 cores.   We run one main station to a Raid 0 backed up to another Raid 0.

I never compare or time read/write though it seems with the Rocket it's always about 1 to 1, with a fast I mac I7 (obviously no Rocket card) it's about 3 to 1.

Our building is wired for the latest cat and I should put this stuff on a network, but that's just another $10,000 and another thing to worry about.

For drives we've kind of gotten over the heavy Raid thing.  I have 18 4 disc Raid 5's I've used for backup for a few years, but now everything goes on a Lacie-1 terabyte rugged.  They don't seem any slower than raid 0's and we can isolate each project, or parts of the project down to each drive.

Drive 1 raw footage and usually processed one light footage or proxy's, drive 2 graphics and edit, drive 3 render.    Then back them up to a larger drive every night.  I don't see one bit of speed difference between a normal drive and a Raid 0.

In regards to video cards It doesn't matter than much with the RED files as we have RED Rockets, but obviously a faster card helps.  Where a faster card really works is with CS suite and I'd look at their specs.

Actually, for speed we have three I-macs two I-7's and those process out fairly quickly, not real time, but I'd say about 3 to 1 which isn't bad considering the price of the computer and size.


Since Apple seems to have abandoned the professional imaging market, the next station we build will probably be pc, but pc's tricked out with cards, ram, software, monitors and drives are not cheap.  You can get to 15 to 20 grand very, very, quickly.

But that will be a while as we are very well learned in FCP 7, (loathe FCP X) and really have just messed with but not gone deep into premier or AVID.

At this stage I don't see any reason to go to anything but Premier (personal opinion) because AVID does pretty much the same but is a steeper learning curve.

Still in so many ways FCP 7 is the most elegant and intuitive of all the NLE's when you need to do a lot of things.

I really don't have the time to be a full time editor and lay that task off to either someone in house or outside, depending on the scope of the project.

I cut the original style cut, for client approval and sometimes even in the treatment stage and then oversee the edit but don't usually just sit down and edit for 12 hours straight every day. 

I've done it, but I just don't want to go down that road.


IMO

BC
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Morgan_Moore
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« Reply #25 on: September 09, 2012, 06:26:15 PM »
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Face tracking - try the Nex5n , the image is better than the 5d2

Im loving it

Latest colour out of the FS100 ..  PWD pixel https://vimeo.com/49049691

and a coupla nex5n shots.

I still dont get why Scarlet is not rated... 'flat'

I mean just chuck up the curve right?

S
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Sam Morgan Moore Cornwall
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Sareesh Sudhakaran
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« Reply #26 on: September 09, 2012, 09:58:25 PM »
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Morgan, do you know where I could download some 'true' 60fps footage from the FS100 - not the re-timed compressed versions on Youtube/vimeo, but raw footage out of the camera? Would appreciate any pointers. Thanks.
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« Reply #27 on: September 09, 2012, 10:26:29 PM »
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PM me with an FTP URL
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Sam Morgan Moore Cornwall
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Sareesh Sudhakaran
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« Reply #28 on: September 09, 2012, 11:18:19 PM »
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Thanks, BC! Info is definitely helpful. I'm personally looking at something like RAID 10.
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« Reply #29 on: September 09, 2012, 11:52:57 PM »
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PM me with an FTP URL

I haven't used FTP in years, unfortunately. Any possibility to upload it via https://www.yousendit.com/ ? Sorry for the trouble.
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« Reply #30 on: September 10, 2012, 02:47:04 AM »
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Thanks, BC! Info is definitely helpful. I'm personally looking at something like RAID 10.

Sareesh,

Unless you are going to run a large to medium size effects/editorial house, be careful of Raid 5s, 0s, 10s etc and if you are running a large house then go with a central system that everyone can access.

I know, I know everyone will tell you have to use very fast drives, striped raids, fiber optics, etc. etc., but honestly even with up to date editorial systems most of the heavy lifting is either done by the cores and cup, or the GP?U or specific render cards like the Rocket.

You'll notice more with a GPU upgrade than a 10,000 rpm raid 0 system.

Now, we are still running old ghetto sneakers, fcp 7 which uses about 1/10th of 2 cores and only 4 gigs of ram, but even with that I can see more speed with a video card than I can a drive.  In fact just running the render to one clean drive alone will speed up the process 5 fold.

I'm not trying to talk anyone into anything, but in motion post production, money can fly out the window in seconds.  One raid 0, per project?  ok now two for a backup or should I say three with one offsite to be safe.  Then you have deadlines, media gets placed on the main drive but never makes it to the backups, you hand a backup off to a colleague and say tighten this up and 1/10th of the media is not there. 

Get the picture.

Or you go back to a locked edit for client changes and well, the list goes on and the money flies, then about the time you have the perfect setup with i/o boxes, raids, fast drives, the "proper video card", render cards, etc. the software changes and your back to changing the system again.

If you run multiple seats you have to change them all and a RED is starting to look cheap. 

Not trying to be negative, but keep it simple, keep it backed up and keep it profitable.

IMO

BC

P.S.  Having raw footage is a blessing not a curse (regardless of what Arri will tell you) and a few more things about the Scarlet/Epic.  Forever they would not replay the sound in camera, which is a bloody fright and the fans run all the time.  Usually not noticeable but on a tight shot it is.

Something to think about.
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Sareesh Sudhakaran
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« Reply #31 on: September 10, 2012, 06:05:44 AM »
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One raid 0, per project?  ok now two for a backup or should I say three with one offsite to be safe.  Then you have deadlines, media gets placed on the main drive but never makes it to the backups, you hand a backup off to a colleague and say tighten this up and 1/10th of the media is not there. 

LOL...I feel you.

Quote

Unless you are going to run a large to medium size effects/editorial house, be careful of Raid 5s, 0s, 10s etc and if you are running a large house then go with a central system that everyone can access.

I know, I know everyone will tell you have to use very fast drives, striped raids, fiber optics, etc. etc., but honestly even with up to date editorial systems most of the heavy lifting is either done by the cores and cup, or the GP?U or specific render cards like the Rocket.

You'll notice more with a GPU upgrade than a 10,000 rpm raid 0 system.

Oh no, nothing so fancy. The system that I'm thinking of building is only a personal project - mostly a media streamer with redundancy.

But I'd like it to playback an R3D 5K file in full resolution (3:1 compression @ 60fps) if I can make it happen - without the Rocket! Call it an experiment or a crazy whim.
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« Reply #32 on: September 15, 2012, 06:56:30 PM »
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So back to the original topic of this thread, I'm watching an episode of "The Newsroom" last night.  For those who don't know it's a series produced by HBO in the U.S.  In one scene, two of the main characters are in an office talking and on the window of the office is a horizontal blind.  MASSIVE moiré in the blind. 

A big aspect of what brings some of these DSLRs down is moiré.  Then when I see something like this in a major TV production it makes you wonder.  I don't know what this series is shot with but I'm expecting it's not DSLRs. 

The Beeb (and other media outlets) have significant capital invested in camera hardware.  It leads me to wonder whether these 'tests' are more an exercise in self-preservation rather than a determinant of image quality.  Do some 'tests', say that DSLRs don't meet the grade and there's never any worry about having to justify $100,000 in camera gear when $5k might suffice.  Never any worry about 'wannabes' pitching ideas that are shot with 'inferior' equipment cutting their grass. 
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« Reply #33 on: September 15, 2012, 10:41:31 PM »
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...MASSIVE moiré in the blind. 

A big aspect of what brings some of these DSLRs down is moiré.  Then when I see something like this in a major TV production it makes you wonder.  I don't know what this series is shot with but I'm expecting it's not DSLRs. 

The Beeb (and other media outlets) have significant capital invested in camera hardware.  It leads me to wonder whether these 'tests' are more an exercise in self-preservation rather than a determinant of image quality.  Do some 'tests', say that DSLRs don't meet the grade and there's never any worry about having to justify $100,000 in camera gear when $5k might suffice.  Never any worry about 'wannabes' pitching ideas that are shot with 'inferior' equipment cutting their grass. 

Not all moire is caused in camera. Some are caused by incorrect digitization (resampling) and encoding. Some are caused due to the television itself. Some are due to your eyes (unlikely on consumer monitors).

I don't know about Newsroom, but the broadcast quality criteria is usually not applied to news footage.

Just wondering though: what would the kickback on a DSLR be? The strange thing I've noticed is that manufacturers hype their low end cameras and their 4K cameras for feature film makers, but you don't see much buzz on broadcast cameras like the HDC1500 or so. Maybe they don't want people asking too many questions like: Why is the F65 cheaper than the HDC1500?
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« Reply #34 on: September 16, 2012, 09:13:01 AM »
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I don't know much of the broadcast process but indeed I think the problems can be amplified down the chain.

Also I don't see why an appropriate softening filter cannot be applied before those processes.

Obviously this had not happened on that show -whatever the camera.

To drift OT but stick with nikon the D600 looks quite interesting

Especially to me as my D3 is getting a bit saggy, but could be kept as a high framerate grabber cam when needed.

S





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« Reply #35 on: September 16, 2012, 01:44:28 PM »
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So back to the original topic of this thread, I'm watching an episode of "The Newsroom" last night.  For those who don't know it's a series produced by HBO in the U.S.  In one scene, two of the main characters are in an office talking and on the window of the office is a horizontal blind.  MASSIVE moiré in the blind. 

The newsroom is shot with three Arri Alexas that produce a 4:2:2 uncompressed prorezz, running through the Wireless Boxx system to the trailer.

5 days in studio, with two days on location in NYC.

Since the moire you saw is probably a studio shot, I doubt if it came through on the original footage, even though the Alexa is a 2k camera.  It probably is a result from crappy transcoding on the network to the cable to your screen, or your screen doesn't have the resolution to not see moire.

You see this all the time in broadcast and cable/satellite delivery. 

IMO

BC

P.S.  Episodic TV production is now edited almost as if it was a real time news show.  They place trailer's between studios in LA lots, all running hot with footage coming in as they shoot and doing rough edits that are completed by the end of the day.

The Alexa is popular for a lot of reasons, one because it's an Arri and familiar with a lot of DP's, another because it shoots a prorezz file ready for editing as a proxy without going through a step of processing like a RED Raw. I believe that's why RED is producing a box that will convert a RED raw to a prorezz file on the fly.

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« Reply #36 on: September 16, 2012, 01:57:27 PM »
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I think I'd be a bit surprised if it were something at HBO's end.  Compression by my cable company I could buy. 
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« Reply #37 on: September 16, 2012, 02:10:04 PM »
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I've never seen objectionable moire from files shot with RED, Alexa, or even HD broadcast cameras when projected on theater screens.

I have seen very objectionable moire from DSLR video. From the DSLR, everything looks great...until it doesn't and the moire is a huge distraction.

I suspect in the case of "Newsroom", it's an artifact of re-scaling / compression somewhere along the delivery pipeline.
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« Reply #38 on: September 22, 2012, 12:45:19 PM »
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http://www.dvxuser.com/V6/showthread.php?290828-Internal-codec-compared-to-external-ProRes-220&p=1986209732&viewfull=1#post1986209732
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