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Author Topic: Double Sided Papers For Portfolios  (Read 3385 times)
Brent Daniels
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« on: September 11, 2012, 01:38:46 PM »
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What are the options for double sided papers for portfolio use? I am looking to have the pages scored and drilled after printing. Any possible non matte papers ?
Has anyone had experience with the Moab Entrada 300? I inquired with Moab and they said it can handle scoring but does anyone have real world experience with this?
Are there any tricks to avoid marking of the first side when running the second side? The images will have a very heavy
black background so this is a concern.

Thank you
Brent Daniels
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Wayne Fox
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« Reply #1 on: September 12, 2012, 01:18:23 PM »
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Moab used to offer pre-scored sheets of Entrada for a book of some kind, and I believe they still offer pre-scored cards.  The paper looks nice and the scores fold well.
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RHPS
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« Reply #2 on: September 12, 2012, 01:38:58 PM »
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These people http://www.lost-luggage.com/store/paper-lasal.php are offering Moab Lasal punched and scored. You need pretty deep pockets for their albums though!
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PeterAit
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« Reply #3 on: September 12, 2012, 04:24:38 PM »
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The scoring is for the fold near the binding, right? You might consider adhesive binder strips, or whatever they are called. They attach with adhesive to the edge of the paper and provide the binder holes plus a "hinge."
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Peter
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rogan
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« Reply #4 on: September 12, 2012, 05:42:47 PM »
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Also, when having portfolios made, ask them to use standard hole widths of a 3 ring binder. Then buy one at saples for $5 and it takes about 3 seconds per page to do yourself. I've done this for 10 years
http://www.google.com/products/catalog?q=3+hole+punch&hl=en&safe=off&client=safari&rls=en&prmd=imvns&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.r_cp.r_qf.&biw=1506&bih=944&um=1&ie=UTF-8&tbm=shop&cid=13521724636009837853&sa=X&ei=xQ9RUK6jJOXh0QHI34GgAQ&ved=0CI0BEPMCMAQ#ps-sellers
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Brent Daniels
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« Reply #5 on: September 12, 2012, 08:45:34 PM »
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I am aware of the Moab. We have tested mechanical scoring on the Entrada 300 Duo as I find the Lasal 235 too light.
Canson also makes a Rag Photographique 220 Duo and they are sending me samples. They have also sent me a sheet of Baryta Photographique that they test scored. They are considering making a duo version of this paper which I would love.
So right now it seems like the Entrada 300 or the Photographique Rag 220 depending on surface feel.

The only way to get a good score that does not break later is on a machine the does 3 parallel scores. So I send out the pages for scoring , trimming , and drilling by the bookbinder.

Too bad Canson is just thinking about the a duo Baryta .

Cheers
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Ernst Dinkla
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« Reply #6 on: September 13, 2012, 01:58:57 AM »
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In my experience many inkjet papers can be scored including RC papers. Ilford has dual sided RC versions if you need a more glossy surface. Lustre Duo. Smooth Lustre Duo. Sihl distributes a dual sided RC glossy too.

Matte dual sided are more widespread, from the inexpensive Red River Aurora Natural to a range of Innova and Hahnemühle qualitities. Hahnemühle will introduce a new one at the Photokina; HARMAN Professional Inkjet by Hahnemühle Matt Fibre Duo. Moab is mentioned already, Epson and Museo can be added, Tecco has one too (could be a Moab clone though).

The 190 grams Moab Entrada Rag Bright samples that I have here in a multibind map show yellowing at some edges on both sides of the paper. Light most likely destroyed the OBA dyes in this case. I would avoid the Bright version for any prints including books.


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340+ paper white spectral plots:
http://www.pigment-print.com/spectralplots/spectrumviz_1.htm
update july 2012: Moab changes, paper sorting by name
« Last Edit: September 13, 2012, 06:10:07 AM by Ernst Dinkla » Logged
Brent Daniels
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« Reply #7 on: September 26, 2012, 11:18:12 AM »
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I have just ordered some of the new Moab Dual Semigloss 330 paper. Designed for books and portfolios to avoid scuffing and such that goes with the matt paper. Hopefully it handle the fold scoring well for portfolio use.
Too bad I heard about it 10 minutes after opening a box of Entrada I had bought.
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Ernst Dinkla
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« Reply #8 on: September 26, 2012, 03:14:22 PM »
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I have just ordered some of the new Moab Dual Semigloss 330 paper. Designed for books and portfolios to avoid scuffing and such that goes with the matt paper. Hopefully it handle the fold scoring well for portfolio use.
Too bad I heard about it 10 minutes after opening a box of Entrada I had bought.

A clone of the Sihl 4803 RC dual sided 330gsm in my opinion. Looks, feels, weighs and measures the same.

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Met vriendelijke groet, Ernst

360+ paper white spectral plots:
http://www.pigment-print.com/spectralplots/spectrumviz_1.htm
september 2012: Photokina updates going on for at least a month
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Brent Daniels
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« Reply #9 on: September 28, 2012, 09:33:02 AM »
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Is being a clone of the Sihl 4803 RC dual sided 330gsm a good thing, or bad?
What are your thoughts / impressions on this paper as far as printing image quality?
Any experience in how it stands up to professional creasing scoring for portfolio use?

Thank you
Brent Daniels

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Ernst Dinkla
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« Reply #10 on: September 28, 2012, 10:51:02 AM »
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By hand with a bone scoring blade it is a tough job. The paper is hard to emboss and the resin coatings easy to tear. Industrial task I think. It was a lot easier with for example HP Premium ID Satin but that is a softer single coated RC paper.  Print quality is good based on the printed sample I have, both B&W and color. Text and Logo could have been better but they did not pay attention to those elements. With a Lab 93.3 1.3 -7.1 not a very high white reflectance and relying on OBA to get there.


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Met vriendelijke groet, Ernst

360+ paper white spectral plots:
http://www.pigment-print.com/spectralplots/spectrumviz_1.htm
september 2012: Photokina updates going on for at least a month
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mjcreedon
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« Reply #11 on: September 28, 2012, 09:27:00 PM »
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Brett,
Here is an online site for the Moab Chinle Portfolio's with slip cases.
http://moabpaper.com/chinle-photo-presentation/
I've used them for years to create books/portfolios that represent my work using the same Moab Entrada Fine Art Natural substrate that I print my work on.  Sizes are limited.  Remember to use the Desert Varnish spray so that you don't get print rub off on the adjoining pages.
Moab Entrada Natural does not have OBA's like their Bright White paper.  The Natural is similar in look to the Hahnemuhle Photo Rag.  Comes in 190 gms and 300 gms.
Slip cover case a nice compliment to a housed presentation book/portfolio.  Attached is an image of what one of my books/portfolios looks like.
Good luck,
Michael 
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Brent Daniels
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« Reply #12 on: October 02, 2012, 09:07:00 PM »
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I received my newly released Moab Dual Semi Gloss yesterday thanks to Yvette at Moab. I like the look and feel of the paper for portfolio use as compared to the dual sided matte options. It is in no way comparable to my favorite Canson Baryta for fine prints though.
 
I was very happy with the first test prints of a "test" file that included Lab ramp grey scales. With the new 3880 and the downloaded ICC profile the grey scale was perfect. I printed the 2nd side right after the first and there were no marking / scratching issues with solid black background images. So far so good.

When testing the mechanical scoring with my book guy we found that that the standard 2pt creasing blade that would be used on a matte paper does not work on this paper at all. I am having a custom 2 blade 4pt creasing set made that should work. Small price to avoid the matte scuffing issue.

Tomorrow I will test the Print Guard spray on the paper.

So far this is a nice option to the dual matte portfolio papers available.

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Brent Daniels
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« Reply #13 on: November 02, 2012, 11:32:19 AM »
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We have been trying to score the Moab Lasal Dual Semi Gloss for portfolio use but have found that it just will not score without breaking.
The scoring is being done by a professional bookbinder. We originally tried the 2pt scoring/creasing blade that is used for matt papers but found that the surface and paper broke. We had a 4pt set of blades made and have just found that this also broke the surface and the paper. It seems it is not just the surface finish but also the structure of the paper. The bookbinder tried several tricks but had the same result.
This paper is being marketed for books and portfolios however it seems the surface and the paper structure are not conducive to the page scoring required for portfolios. After printing, spraying, and trimming an entire 50 page book this is not a happy discovery. I had such high hopes for this paper, till trying to score it.

Any page scoring tricks that anyone could possibly have that could possibly work with this paper would be greatly appreciated?
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Ernst Dinkla
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« Reply #14 on: November 03, 2012, 09:25:07 AM »
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 It may not be aesthetically pleasing but using a perforating rule is probably the only choice left with a rigid back. Or a binding with a flexible back.


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Met vriendelijke groet, Ernst

http://www.pigment-print.com/spectralplots/spectrumviz_1.htm
450+ inkjet paper white spectral plots, November 2012:
rearranged categories, still adding Photokina paper samples.





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BrianWJH
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« Reply #15 on: November 03, 2012, 07:10:07 PM »
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The bookbinder tried several tricks but had the same result.

Brett, was one of those tricks applying some moisture to the seam area before creasing?
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mdelrossi
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« Reply #16 on: January 09, 2013, 11:09:12 AM »
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Brent,
Did you have any luck scoring the paper?
Also did you try scoring it in both axis's?
If I recall paper has a grain and if you score with the grain it will tear easier than if you score against the gain.
Just a thought.
mdr
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