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Author Topic: New to site and DMF... Just in time with H5D ! Help Please.  (Read 28960 times)
bcooter
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« Reply #40 on: October 10, 2012, 04:01:17 AM »
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I swear if this was a e-magaizne on cars, somebody would record the sound of a toyota door slamming next to a BMW swearing the toyota was quieter.  There are buyers of both brands and some people even buy both, though I bet the drive the bmw more.

I know I have a bunch of 35mm digitals, some medium format backs and cameras, digital video and digital cinema cameras and . . . actually  . . . well probably, way too many cameras, but we use them all and usually for different reasons.

In the new normal it seems we work very robust days and use about all of our equipment, every project.

Anyway, TMark.  I will probably eventually get someone to ship me a D800E and look at it but right now I'm pretty well set on cameras, then again I don't disbelieve that it's a capable camera.  I know with my Nikons, the D700 and the D3, both are very difficult to manage skin tones and colors.

We can do it, but under lower iso, they're an issue, though maybe the D800 is better.

I know the original poster is talking about landscapes and I'm really not the guy to answer that question.  All I can suggest again is to test them, regardless of price and gasp, gasp regardless of ultimate image quality, whatever that is.

I do know if I did do landscapes and REALLY and truly needed 80 mpx I'd just buy an 80 mpx back and camera because I like things in one shot, but hey, that's just me.  Also I don't really care if a lens is sharp edge to edge because I very rarely need edge sharpness, think it's pretty when a lens has falloff and some softness to the corners.  In fact some of the prettiest work we've ever done and a style that continues to get us work is using the Contax with that old Boris Hartiblie tilt shift and I can tell you nothing is really sharp on that lens but the very center.

Buying clients like the look because I think it looks less digital, less clack clack, more click manually focus, think about it, click.

Now, those are the things I know, but what i think is with all these very heated discussions three things are left out.

1.  Why do you have to have any one camera?  It's quite reasonable to have multiple formats.  I do, I use them, they're paid for, they make me money and shoot the way I want.

2.  There is nothing wrong with using a camera that is not as efficient as something that costs less, or more.  I love the Contax(s) I use and love the analog feel.  I spend a lot of time with my eye on a viewfinder and my eye on a computer screen and I like the viewfinder a lot more than a computer screen, so cameras that feel less computer and more camera is fine by me.

3.  We all know we're in this weird world wide economic stagnation and everybody is looking for the less expensive alternative.  Clients, suppliers, everyone, but I'm fortunate that I own my own equipment and can shoot to my standards not just what the budget dictates.  I have to admit I appreciate that Phase (and I guess all medium format companies) have continued to update their software so my cameras are more viable today than they were when I bought them.   Speaking of economics, just add up buying a $3,000 camera you'll use for two years or a $15,000 camera you'll use for 7 years and the numbers are close to a wash and even if they weren't wouldn't you rather have something that feels special, a device that becomes part of you and your work?

4.  (I know I said 3).  Use what you want to use, to shoot what you want to shoot.  I have no doubt that they people that stitch like working that way.  I also know some photographers love the latest model of everything.  There is nothing wrong with either direction, but to try to get back to the original poster, really test before you buy.  Any good dealer will either rent or or rent discounted if you buy almost any camera and even if you have to fly to do it, you'll be much happier to know that what you bought fits for your style of work, not you fitting to it.

5,  (yea yea, I know I said 3 but I'm on a roll).  

The last few years I've grown tired of hearing about the "new normal" of only delivering what is required and holding things to a low bar rather than higher.  

I also find it somewhat absurd that people that want higher salaries, higher rates and fees take exception to a camera maker that wants decent profits.  Actually I find it strange that living in a world economy profit has become a word said in hushed tones.

Sure, $30,000 to $50,000 is very high for a camera (any camera) but if you look, shop, test and maybe just wait you can find a deal and there are deals out there from reputable dealers of all makes, but the OP's desire to buy an H4 makes sense to me.  He wants to buy one step from the latest and enjoy a camera, but instead of anybody with an H4d making a post, everyone says buy a Nikon.  

Maybe the Nikon is the new normal and everyone should buy one, maybe we all should wear grey jumpsuits and ride in push carts, but I doubt if the world is going to go that way.

Whether you shoot for pleasure or business, (hopefully both), there is no joy in limiting yourself, less joy in just joining the crowd.  

Does a camera make you better . . . I don't know, maybe-maybe not, but does a camera you like using make you feel better about what your shooting and delivering, whether it goes on the living room wall or in Times Square?    Hell yes.


IMO

BC

P.S.  2 years ago, my business partner/producer wife wanted a Leica.  She didn't like focusing my M-8, so we went to a dealer and tried everything.  She bought a Leica X-1.  Were there better cameras, I dunno, maybe. Were there better prices . . . sure, but that doesn't matter because she likes it, it makes her feel good, she takes photos with it and will use it for years.  

It makes her happy.  Happy is good.

« Last Edit: October 10, 2012, 01:52:19 PM by bcooter » Logged
Dustbak
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« Reply #41 on: October 10, 2012, 04:11:37 AM »
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does a camera you like using make you feel better about what your shooting and delivering, either on the living room wall or in Times Square?    Hell yes.
IMO

BC

For me this says it all... thank you.
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yaya
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« Reply #42 on: October 10, 2012, 05:24:06 AM »
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I already did in fact...

we could have done a very easy comparison to prove the obvious for those doubting that a 200+ mp stitch from a D800 is superior to a single IQ180 image. A 3x4=12 images stitch should do.

Why would you want to compare a 200MP 12-frame stitch to an 80MP single shot? I mean what will you be comparing? The workflow? The resolution? The colour?
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BernardLanguillier
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« Reply #43 on: October 10, 2012, 06:45:25 AM »
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Why would you want to compare a 200MP 12-frame stitch to an 80MP single shot? I mean what will you be comparing? The workflow? The resolution? The colour?

The image quality of the resulting image? In particular the detail? In other words assess the ability of a 12 images stitch to meet the needs of the OP regarding the capture of grand landscape with more details better than a single shot from a 80mp back?

Or is your view that it is fundamentally impossible to compare 2 photographs of a given scene?

Cheers,
Bernard
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gerald.d
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« Reply #44 on: October 10, 2012, 06:49:20 AM »
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Here's the thing.

If we're going to have to use stitched images from a DSLR to compare to a single image from MFDB, why limit the MFDB to a single image?

If stitching is an option for the DSLR, then it is also an option for the MFDB.

77 image stitch with an IQ180, Mamiya 200/2.8 + 2x teleconverter.

08.ae/panos/Burj77/Burj77.html

I can shoot the same image with an IQ180 using less than half the number of shots it would take even with a D800, for the same output resolution.

Which means I can shoot it in less than half the time.

Which, as I intend to demonstrate in a few weeks time, can mean the difference between getting the shot, or not.

Kind regards,

Gerald.

« Last Edit: October 10, 2012, 06:50:52 AM by gerald.d » Logged
BernardLanguillier
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« Reply #45 on: October 10, 2012, 06:51:27 AM »
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Here's the thing.

If we're going to have to use stitched images from a DSLR to compare to a single image from MFDB, why limit the MFDB to a single image?

If stitching is an option for the DSLR, then it is also an option for the MFDB.

77 image stitch with an IQ180, Mamiya 200/2.8 + 2x teleconverter.

08.ae/panos/Burj77/Burj77.html

I can shoot the same image with an IQ180 using less than half the number of shots it would take even with a D800, for the same output resolution.

Which means I can shoot it on less than half the time.

Which, as I intend to demonstrated in a few weeks time, can mean the difference between getting the shot, or not.

Yes, you can of course do that.

The question is why spend 50,000 US$ on a back + lens if stitching with the D800E enables you to reach the required resolution at 1/10 the cost?  Wink

45,000 US$ is a significant amount of money for some people, it probably is for 99,9% of photographers in fact.

Cheers,
Bernard
« Last Edit: October 10, 2012, 06:53:35 AM by BernardLanguillier » Logged

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gerald.d
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« Reply #46 on: October 10, 2012, 06:53:37 AM »
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Because you can't buy time.
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BernardLanguillier
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« Reply #47 on: October 10, 2012, 07:00:37 AM »
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Because you can't buy time.

Again, you are assuming that spending 45,000 US$ more is possible, that spending or not spending that amount is a choice anyone can make. It simply is not the case.

Besides, how many frames a day do you shoot when you do grand landscape? 5 or 10?

Shooting a 12 frame pano takes at most 1 extra minute in the field compared to a single frame on a back. How many extra .% does that represent compared to all the other things you need to do when shooting landscape?

It is also negligible in post processing time, 10 clicks in AutoPano, 5 minutes computation time. That is nitch compared to the time needed to complete a final image for printing.

Cheers,
Bernard
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gerald.d
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« Reply #48 on: October 10, 2012, 07:09:10 AM »
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Most I've done for a single pano was around 4,500.

That was with a DSLR. Wish I'd had the IQ180 then Smiley
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Wim van Velzen
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« Reply #49 on: October 10, 2012, 07:21:14 AM »
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Landscape photographs including the sea are not easily done while stitching. Even when you shoot in the cycle of the tidal waves, things never look quite right.

That said, I do a lot of stitching with my 22MP back and Rollei camera. I would rather have a 28mm lens for it though.
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yaya
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« Reply #50 on: October 10, 2012, 07:42:35 AM »
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The image quality of the resulting image? In particular the detail? In other words assess the ability of a 12 images stitch to meet the needs of the OP regarding the capture of grand landscape with more details better than a single shot from a 80mp back?

Or is your view that it is fundamentally impossible to compare 2 photographs of a given scene?

Cheers,
Bernard

Of course nothing is impossible nowadays but I was curious because visualising, composing and taking a 1 shot image is a different experience to creating a stitched image.

I do quite a bit of stitching myself (on Nikon, iPhone, Techcams and MFSLRs so I know what it takes to make a good image (quality and aesthetics) and IMO a single frame image is a more rewarding experience

If you use a back on a tech camera you can use a GG and at least do the framing VISUALLY with little need for cropping...can't do that with an SLR...

If I follow your logic then my D5100 (half the D800 sensor), at $600 is all I really need coz I can stitch a gazzilion frames with the same quality and it'll cost a lot less (body and moreso lenses)...

If that's your thing then more power to you but I don't think that you're in the majority...

No offence intended, seriously!

Yair
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ctz
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« Reply #51 on: October 10, 2012, 08:09:02 AM »
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Landscape photographs including the sea are not easily done while stitching.

Or a windy day in the weeds.


Of course nothing is impossible nowadays but I was curious because visualising, composing and taking a 1 shot image is a different experience to creating a stitched image.

good point.
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TMARK
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« Reply #52 on: October 10, 2012, 08:22:14 AM »
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Michael Wolf did these with a Canon Rebel stitched.  The prints are astounding. 

http://www.photomichaelwolf.com/transparent_city/index.html

This is just to point out that its not the tool.  Yes, stitched 80mp would be even more astounding.
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« Reply #53 on: October 10, 2012, 08:52:22 AM »
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If I follow your logic then my D5100 (half the D800 sensor), at $600 is all I really need coz I can stitch a gazzilion frames with the same quality and it'll cost a lot less (body and moreso lenses)...

Here we go again, all the DSLRs are the same?

There is no difference btwn a D5100 pixels and D800 pixels?

Cheers,
Bernard
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« Reply #54 on: October 10, 2012, 11:28:43 AM »
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Here we go again


 Cheesy 
That's so funny coming from you, Bernard!  "stitch, stitch, stitch.... "


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« Reply #55 on: October 10, 2012, 12:55:30 PM »
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Hi,

I got the impression the original poster would not spend more than 14000$US or so. Si I guess the IQ180 is not an option.

More affordable backs often come with a crop factor. So, the potential buyer must consider his/her needs regarding wide angles.

MF Digital is said to have many magical properties, like CCDs offering better color than CMOS. In real life life both CCDs and CMOS are monochrome devices, with color added by the CGA (Color Grid Array) and the software. It is well possible that certain vendors have better CGAs. It is conceivable that some CGAs would put priority on good high ISO performance and others on good color separation. On the other hand, real world imaging experts like Jeff Schewe and Michael Reichmann say that you can achieve essentially any color rendition in the raw converter. In his latest book Jeff Schewe illustrates that a properly processed image from an IPhone 4S is virtually indistinguishable from a P65+ at small print sizes.

Now, I don't think there is anything magical with MF. A larger sensor has always advantages, we have seen this with film and we see this with digital. A larger sensor can collect more photons. A larger sensor is also much less demanding of a lens. On the other hand, larger formats need to be stopped down more.This was so in the film times and it is so now.

An excellent study was done by Lars Kjellberg in film days: http://www.photodo.com/topic_138.html

I also would say that Nikon has shaken up the photo world a little with the D800/D800E. That camera has a lot to offer:

- Very high resolution
- Perfect focusing when using live view
- Best DR at the pixel level of any camera on earth
- Access to a wide variety of excellent lenses from Nikon and Zeiss
- Option to use Leica R lenses

These factor make the D800/D800E into an excellent picture maker. According to at least one test by Lloyd Chambers the D800 actually outperforms the Leica S2.

For the price of a digital back you can probably build a whole system of a Nikon D800E and a few of Zeiss lenses. So, quality wise the Nikon option should be concerned.

There is little doubt that high end backs with high end optics outperform the D800/D800E when optimally used.

Stitching is an alternative in many cases. Stitching is easy. Stitching can expand resolution capability, but it is not always possible. Stitching may also help expanding angle of view. This of course applies to both MF and lesser DSLRs.

Whatever equipment is used, it is just a tool. The tool needs to work for the application. A nice tool is nice to work with. It may be important that the user feels satisfaction with his/her tools.

Best regards
Erik Kaffehr




Cheesy  
That's so funny coming from you, Bernard!  "stitch, stitch, stitch.... "



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FredBGG
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« Reply #56 on: October 10, 2012, 01:02:41 PM »
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Of course nothing is impossible nowadays but I was curious because visualising, composing and taking a 1 shot image is a different experience to creating a stitched image.

I do quite a bit of stitching myself (on Nikon, iPhone, Techcams and MFSLRs so I know what it takes to make a good image (quality and aesthetics) and IMO a single frame image is a more rewarding experience

If you use a back on a tech camera you can use a GG and at least do the framing VISUALLY with little need for cropping...can't do that with an SLR...

If I follow your logic then my D5100 (half the D800 sensor), at $600 is all I really need coz I can stitch a gazzilion frames with the same quality and it'll cost a lot less (body and moreso lenses)...

If that's your thing then more power to you but I don't think that you're in the majority...

No offence intended, seriously!

Yair

Composition can be done in many ways. Painters don't have much of a problem. When your subject is static it is easy to imagine the composition.
There are also many tools available such as a directors eyepiece, your fingers and thumbs in the classic framing gesture.

No one here is saying it is pointless to shoot single frame, most of us do it all the same.

The real point is that there is more choice today than previously. Stitching software has made great progress and systems for automated stitching shooting like the gigapan are inexpensive, relatively compact and easy to use with built in set up wizards.

The second important point is that it is no longer such a big compromise to opt for a less expensive combination of D800E and a gigapan.
You won't even have that huge of a difference when shooting single frames. See this:http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=iq180%20vs%20d800&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&ved=0CCIQFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.circleofconfusion.ie%2Fd800e-vs-phase-one-iq180%2F&ei=Jbh1UNSrA-KpiALMnoHIAQ&usg=AFQjCNFze8_TyPbne15e5K1QpfXyVoRjTA


What is also important is that if someone has a finite budget of lets say $ 40,000 how is this best spent for a landscape photographer?
Maybe a slight compromise in single shot image quality and $ 30,000 to spend on trips to some of the worlds best locations is the best choice.
As equipment offers more and more quality for less money it becomes more and more about the photographer and what you put in front of the lens.
YOU CAN'T MOVE MOUNTAINS.......

Similar logic applies to other fields too. Fashion is a good example. I never recommend MFD to a young fashion photographer. I recommend 35mm DSLR and a film MF SLR....
and spending the moeny saved on travelling to different fashion capitals and building a more "worldly" portfolio while learning more about fashion.
Often they think they have to have MFD to be taken seriously... not the case.
Who do you think a designer is going to work with? The guy with photos from Milan, Paris, New York or the guy with the big camera?
« Last Edit: October 10, 2012, 01:12:20 PM by FredBGG » Logged
FredBGG
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« Reply #57 on: October 10, 2012, 01:22:47 PM »
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If I follow your logic then my D5100 (half the D800 sensor), at $600 is all I really need coz I can stitch a gazzilion frames with the same quality and it'll cost a lot less (body and moreso lenses)...

If that's your thing then more power to you but I don't think that you're in the majority...

No offence intended, seriously!

Yair

No one here is saying to go out and get a D5100 instead of MFD. The suggestion is to go with the very highest end 35mm DSLR that has superior dynamic range, NO ANTI ALIAS filter and color pretty much on par with anything out there. The D5100 has lower dynamic range than MFD, the D800 has higher Dynamic range than MFD.

No one is suggesting that a person considering entry level MFD with a budget of $14,000 go and buy an entry level 35mm DSLR.
What is being suggested is that there is no advantage in getting a crop sensor MFD cameras when the same can be achieved with a D800E and more if stitching is added to the mix. Seems reasonable to me and a few others here.
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« Reply #58 on: October 10, 2012, 02:09:28 PM »
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No one here is saying to go out and get a D5100 instead of MFD.
I'm not saying that either...
Quote
The D5100 has lower dynamic range than MFD, the D800 has higher Dynamic range than MFD.
According to 1 website with 1 testing method
Quote
No one is suggesting that a person considering entry level MFD with a budget of $14,000 go and buy an entry level 35mm DSLR.
Neither do I
Quote
What is being suggested is that there is no advantage in getting a crop sensor MFD cameras when the same can be achieved with a D800E and more if stitching is added to the mix
Not sure if that's what Bernard is suggesting...but you seem to know better because you don't even give him a chance to reply...
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FredBGG
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« Reply #59 on: October 10, 2012, 03:18:29 PM »
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Not sure if that's what Bernard is suggesting...but you seem to know better because you don't even give him a chance to reply...

Actually Yaya... he had already replied just a few posts back and I was simply adding my point of view on the discussion.
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