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Author Topic: New to site and DMF... Just in time with H5D ! Help Please.  (Read 28407 times)
ErikKaffehr
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« Reply #80 on: October 11, 2012, 06:01:26 AM »
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Hi,

Yes, indeed! A single pixel contains just a number. Say that number is 1354. There is no way to tell an iPhone pixel from an IQ180 pixel, both are just numbers. To get color information it takes 4 pixels, on both iPhone and IQ180 and additional information in the raw file.  There is one difference the IQ180 pixel is probably lager and can probably hold more electron charges. It is said to have a larger Full Well Capacity. But it is still just a number.

Best regards
Erik



Quote
Ehh... so an iPhone pixel collects same info as other pixels on sensors ? Obvious no.


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NickyTaylorphoto
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« Reply #81 on: October 11, 2012, 08:14:30 AM »
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WOW what a wealth of information from you all.   THANK YOU!

As this was my first post on this website I can tell.

1. Im going to have to stick around.

2. There are a lot of people on here that I can learn so much more from.

I think after reading all the info and researching along side it all, Im going to go for the D800e and research a little more to which will be the best wide angle lens around 24mm to use that on.

I think I have come to this decision because I have actually tested the camera out and know how it feels in my hands. Also I can put the extra $$ saved and buy an underwater house strobes and a great few Trips away with the new gear.

Also just for the sheer fact that it could cause so much controversy when going head to head with medium format digital (the IQ180 at that) I think taking advantage of the price for the technology, is best and wait maybe another year or two for the medium format to once again come within budget but hopefully not only at the entry level. 
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Doug Peterson
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« Reply #82 on: October 11, 2012, 08:30:35 AM »
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You're making your decision before actually trying the alternative? This surprises me given that based on your travel schedule it would be arbitrarily easy for you to spend an afternoon actually shooting pictures with each system.

Cost of entry aside, you'll be doing years worth of work with whichever system you choose - why not base your decision on pictures and shooting rather than just discussion?

A digiback on a tech camera is a very different tool than a D800. There are advantages/disadvantages to each, but they are so different it's really hard to compare them directly in abstraction. The only comparison you can make between them is per person - what that user finds best/worst about each setup.

(note Nick and I have spoken about a tech camera outside of this thread - so it's not out of context)
« Last Edit: October 11, 2012, 09:11:42 AM by Doug Peterson » Logged

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TMARK
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« Reply #83 on: October 11, 2012, 09:17:43 AM »
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I would at least try out an MFD camera.
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« Reply #84 on: October 11, 2012, 09:30:37 AM »
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" I think I have come to this decision because I have actually tested the camera out and know how it feels in my hands. Also I can put the extra $$ saved and buy an underwater house strobes and a great few Trips away with the new gear. "

Bon Voyage Nicky!

Happy trails, be sure to come back and show some images!

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EricWHiss
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« Reply #85 on: October 11, 2012, 10:12:21 AM »
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Quote from: Anders_HK link=topic=70675.msg565807#msg565807 date=1349946096
Eric, [b
Nice![/b] I like the color shades of the rocks and transition in the sky. Really shows the fine gradations of colors the back picks up. How much processing?

Thanks - There isn't really much post work.   I did everything in C1 on the raw conversion but I did touch up a few dust spots in PS5, but I see now that I missed one.


Just out of interest, what kind of art repro? From what I hear, there are many people out there who stitch for this.

I'm sure there are a lot of people still using scan backs too.  I prefer to use my Rollei 6008AF and hasselblad/imacon CF 528 microstep back when I have time, but otherwise use my AFi-ii 12.  The micro step picks up more subtle nuances (IMHO) and has an edge in tonality and crispness.  This is another topic in itself, but if I have time to stitch, then I have time to use the micro step and stitching is a lot more post work and normally I'm not paid for a setup and then by the image not for hours in post so ....
« Last Edit: October 11, 2012, 10:16:02 AM by EricWHiss » Logged

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« Reply #86 on: October 11, 2012, 10:25:36 AM »
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and wait maybe another year or two for the medium format to once again come within budget but hopefully not only at the entry level. 


that's what i would do, a small investment in a canikon and a few top quality lenses then see what's going on in the world of MF in a couple of years either:
1. very little except 200+mp sensors
2. very little except 200+mp sensors and a consolidation of makers with 1 going under and a buyout hitting s/h values of 50-60mp backs no longer supported by a manufacturer.
3 a technology catch-up of with higher iso noise performance, proper tilt shift lenses and a live view that doesn't look like a bad cctv video.
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ErikKaffehr
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« Reply #87 on: October 11, 2012, 10:31:46 AM »
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Hi,

Regarding repro work, do you build your own profiles?

Reason I ask is partly because I got the impression that most standard profiles give a bit to much saturation. I presume that in reprophotography you would strive for exact color and not pleasant color?

Best regards
Erik


Thanks - There isn't really much post work.   I did everything in C1 on the raw conversion but I did touch up a few dust spots in PS5, but I see now that I missed one.


I'm sure there are a lot of people still using scan backs too.  I prefer to use my Rollei 6008AF and hasselblad/imacon CF 528 microstep back when I have time, but otherwise use my AFi-ii 12.  The micro step picks up more subtle nuances (IMHO) and has an edge in tonality and crispness.  This is another topic in itself, but if I have time to stitch, then I have time to use the micro step and stitching is a lot more post work and normally I'm not paid for a setup and then by the image not for hours in post so ....

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BernardLanguillier
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« Reply #88 on: October 11, 2012, 10:34:30 AM »
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This is another topic in itself, but if I have time to stitch, then I have time to use the micro step and stitching is a lot more post work and normally I'm not paid for a setup and then by the image not for hours in post so ....

Eric,

As mentioned, I am not trying to convince you that you need to stitch, but post-processing is really a matter of minutes with the latest software be it Auto Pano pro or PTGui.

The following image is an 8 images stitch shot with a Leica 280 f4 APO on the D800. Shooting itself took 30 seconds, stitching in Autopano pro took 3 minutes end to end.



Cheers,
Bernard
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A few images online here!
ErikKaffehr
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« Reply #89 on: October 11, 2012, 10:37:57 AM »
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Hi,

Don't forget, you need to test all equipment you buy.

I would recommend a couple of sites:

http://dap.diglloyd.com/  (pay site but worth it)

http://www.bythom.com/

http://www.lensrentals.com/blog

http://www.lensrentals.com/blog/2012/03/d800-lens-selection (about lenses)

Lens rentals is a great site. They are renting lenses and test all lenses before shipping out, so they have a very wide experience of lenses.

Renting a lens may be a good option to find out.


This is my collection of good links: http://echophoto.dnsalias.net/ekr/photo_links.html

Best regards
Erik Kaffehr


WOW what a wealth of information from you all.   THANK YOU!

As this was my first post on this website I can tell.

1. Im going to have to stick around.

2. There are a lot of people on here that I can learn so much more from.

I think after reading all the info and researching along side it all, Im going to go for the D800e and research a little more to which will be the best wide angle lens around 24mm to use that on.

I think I have come to this decision because I have actually tested the camera out and know how it feels in my hands. Also I can put the extra $$ saved and buy an underwater house strobes and a great few Trips away with the new gear.

Also just for the sheer fact that it could cause so much controversy when going head to head with medium format digital (the IQ180 at that) I think taking advantage of the price for the technology, is best and wait maybe another year or two for the medium format to once again come within budget but hopefully not only at the entry level.  

« Last Edit: October 11, 2012, 10:52:31 AM by ErikKaffehr » Logged

EricWHiss
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« Reply #90 on: October 11, 2012, 10:50:17 AM »
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As mentioned, I am not trying to convince you that you need to stitch, but post-processing is really a matter of minutes with the latest software be it Auto Pano pro or PTGui.
The following image is an 8 images stitch shot with a Leica 280 f4 APO on the D800. Shooting itself took 30 seconds, stitching in Autopano pro took 3 minutes end to end.

I'm sure that 280/4 and D800 is a really nice combination!   RE: stitching I've tried both autopano pro and ptgui (via kekus) on the mac but not for a while. It seemed like I had to really go through the images carefully to look for places with seams or other issues so probably I didn't do it right.  At some point I'll give it another go, but probably not for art repro since the 10800x8800 pix in multishot (non-interpolated) is good enough for most things.

Regarding repro work, do you build your own profiles?

Yes, with the CF 528 back but actually the hasselblad profile is quite good - very little difference in color and I've never had anyone comment on color either way. With the CF 528  I normally work with the reproduction mode activated in Phocus.  I use the C1 profiles for the Aptus and their color editor to make fine adjustments.    Bigger issues are getting even lighting so LCC shots are required.   Some gallery spaces are small but have big paintings and that presents challenges to lighting and the use of cross polarizing techniques.   Distortion free planar lenses are a plus for this kind of work.
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gerald.d
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« Reply #91 on: October 11, 2012, 11:32:46 AM »
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Thanks - There isn't really much post work.   I did everything in C1 on the raw conversion but I did touch up a few dust spots in PS5, but I see now that I missed one.


I'm sure there are a lot of people still using scan backs too.  I prefer to use my Rollei 6008AF and hasselblad/imacon CF 528 microstep back when I have time, but otherwise use my AFi-ii 12.  The micro step picks up more subtle nuances (IMHO) and has an edge in tonality and crispness.  This is another topic in itself, but if I have time to stitch, then I have time to use the micro step and stitching is a lot more post work and normally I'm not paid for a setup and then by the image not for hours in post so ....

Thanks for the reply Eric - it's not an area I'm familiar with, and previously have only really heard about people doing massive gigapixels for archiving purposes.

Regards,

Gerald.
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torger
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« Reply #92 on: October 11, 2012, 12:20:23 PM »
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I've done some stitching, and if you're a pixel-peeping perfectionist like me you really need to have a proper pano head tuned for the nodal point. If you have that stitching works fine even with objects nearby, assuming that the stitching software can compensate for vignetting and distortion. I guess software in general has become better at that. I have used Hugin myself which is extremely difficult to understand how to use, but when you know how it makes wonderful results. The commercial programs are much better usability, I use quite a lot of open source tools together with commercial software since I'm the kind of guy that likes to read code... Smiley

One reason I got a medium format tech cam was to get away from stitching though, I like the one-shot picture. For the same reason I find 80 megapixels a bit overkill, my shooting style generally requires so much DoF so 80 megapixels seems like a waste (diffraction blur), and if I start focus stacking to get around that I'm back at stitching again... if 80 megapixels was cheap and did not have that awful color cast I'd love to have it though, in like 1 out of 10 pictures I could actually make use of the resolution :-).
« Last Edit: October 11, 2012, 12:23:13 PM by torger » Logged
yaya
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« Reply #93 on: October 11, 2012, 12:30:18 PM »
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Thanks for the reply Eric - it's not an area I'm familiar with, and previously have only really heard about people doing massive gigapixels for archiving purposes.

Regards,

Gerald.

Hi Gerald, in the archiving world the typical sizes are A3/ A2/ A1/ A0 in 300 or 400dpi (depending on the country and the adopted ISO/ DIN standard), so the largest files are usually not more than 140-150MP (300dpi)

Most municipal/ government documents are produced on A3 or A2 size books so the archived image would be A2 @ 300 dpi = ~35MP or A1@ 300dpi= ~70MP

Which is why 80MP cameras are becoming a standard as they can cover almost everything without any need for stitching etc.

Yair
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gerald.d
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« Reply #94 on: October 11, 2012, 12:37:12 PM »
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Hi Gerald, in the archiving world the typical sizes are A3/ A2/ A1/ A0 in 300 or 400dpi (depending on the country and the adopted ISO/ DIN standard), so the largest files are usually not more than 140-150MP (300dpi)

Most municipal/ government documents are produced on A3 or A2 size books so the archived image would be A2 @ 300 dpi = ~35MP or A1@ 300dpi= ~70MP

Which is why 80MP cameras are becoming a standard as they can cover almost everything without any need for stitching etc.

Yair

Perhaps there's some confusion on my part, but I would have thought that art reproduction and document archiving surely have very different requirements?
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Doug Peterson
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« Reply #95 on: October 11, 2012, 12:44:46 PM »
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Depends on the document, the entity digitizing it, and the purpose for which it's being digitized.

Extraction-of-content only is often done on very inexpensive capture stations (Google OEMs one for their own book-scanning needs).

Archiving documents for remote viewing/research/posterity is often done at standards as high or higher than commercial art reproduction.

As one (extreme) point of reference, the US Constitution is a "government document". As are immigration/birth/death records where small hand written notes and minor typographic differences (e.g. how someone's name was spelled when the immigrated: is that an "o" or an "a") are very important. As are, in some countries, diaries/notes/meeting-agendas of politicians where a researcher may want a high quality of reproduction to, for instance, analyze the handwriting to get an idea of the physical state of the author or to authenticate who wrote it. As are a dozen other categories of paper based documents. It's easy to forget in a world of searchable email and video recordings of every major event that for the majority of the history of even a country as young as the US that the only records of many historical events are found in hand written or type-writer made notes; much of this history is in precarious position (degrading/fading/poorly-organized). Even in art history the ability to trace where/how certain artistic movements started and spread involves research into the hand written notes of whose work was displayed in what galleries, sold to whom etc. We do a lot of business in the cultural heritage market. These institutions are very passionate about what they do and a huge part of the market uses digital backs.

But this is all off topic...
« Last Edit: October 11, 2012, 12:50:45 PM by Doug Peterson » Logged

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torger
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« Reply #96 on: October 11, 2012, 12:50:16 PM »
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Also just for the sheer fact that it could cause so much controversy when going head to head with medium format digital (the IQ180 at that) I think taking advantage of the price for the technology, is best and wait maybe another year or two for the medium format to once again come within budget but hopefully not only at the entry level. 

I think it is a good strategy. We all have different views on MFD, but as I see it the absolutely weakest offer is the entry level MFDSLR type of cameras. I know some people see "huge" image quality difference, but I cannot, and if you can't then it kind of sucks paying a lot more money for something that is worse in almost every aspect. For fashion and similar applications there's probably a good sales pitch for it (nice tethered workflows with skintone-tuned color profiles etc), but for landscape.... nah.

For landscape I think it can be worthwhile to look into a tech camera though, if it suits your shooting style. If it does it can be really wonderful to work with, it is a whole other shooting experience which you may like. For me using MF is more about the shooting experience than about image quality, although quality is important too. If you tilt/shift a lot the current Nikon offerings are a bit weak, so an entry level back on a tech cam with Schneider lenses can be a good option.
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gerald.d
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« Reply #97 on: October 11, 2012, 12:59:13 PM »
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Depends on the document, the entity digitizing it, and the purpose for which it's being digitized.

Extraction-of-content only is often done on very inexpensive capture stations (Google OEMs one for their own book-scanning needs).

Archiving documents for remote viewing/research/posterity is often done at standards as high or higher than commercial art reproduction.

As one (extreme) point of reference, the US Constitution is a "government document". As are immigration/birth/death records where small hand written notes and minor typographic differences (e.g. how someone's name was spelled when the immigrated: is that an "o" or an "a") are very important. As are, in some countries, diaries/notes/meeting-agendas of politicians where a researcher may want a high quality of reproduction to, for instance, analyze the handwriting to get an idea of the physical state of the author or to authenticate who wrote it. As are a dozen other categories of paper based documents. It's easy to forget in a world of searchable email and video recordings of every major event that for the majority of the history of even a country as young as the US that the only records of many historical events are found in hand written or type-writer made notes; much of this history is in precarious position (degrading/fading/poorly-organized). Even in art history the ability to trace where/how certain artistic movements started and spread involves research into the hand written notes of whose work was displayed in what galleries, sold to whom etc. We do a lot of business in the cultural heritage market. These institutions are very passionate about what they do and a huge part of the market uses digital backs.

But this is all off topic...

Like I said. There would appear to be a huge difference between document archiving and art reproduction, which is what was being discussed. I'm talking about this kind of stuff -

http://www.engadget.com/2011/02/01/google-art-project-offers-gigapixel-images-of-art-classics-ind/

But yeah, off topic.
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« Reply #98 on: October 11, 2012, 01:10:39 PM »
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Art (as in old masters paintings etc.) can be reproduced in different ways which are dictated by the required output size in relation to the size of the originals.

For example the world's largest auction house who often sells these items for millions of $//, use 22MP backs as their workhorses as the output size rarely exceeds A4 print.

Museums however (including the 17 mentioned in Google's project), often need high resolution for research or for producing replicates of the originals so they opt for the higher resolution backs but again the output sizes are usually not bigger than 80MP.

As screen technology improves and the resolution goes up, often the requirement for hi-res capture comes from the researchers who view these images on large, hi resolution monitors...

The images used in the project were provided by the museums and were produced with whatever backs each museum uses normally.
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ErikKaffehr
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« Reply #99 on: October 11, 2012, 01:40:54 PM »
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Hi,

Thanks for your explanation on profiles.

Best regards
Erik




Yes, with the CF 528 back but actually the hasselblad profile is quite good - very little difference in color and I've never had anyone comment on color either way. With the CF 528  I normally work with the reproduction mode activated in Phocus.  I use the C1 profiles for the Aptus and their color editor to make fine adjustments.    Bigger issues are getting even lighting so LCC shots are required.   Some gallery spaces are small but have big paintings and that presents challenges to lighting and the use of cross polarizing techniques.   Distortion free planar lenses are a plus for this kind of work.
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