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Author Topic: New to site and DMF... Just in time with H5D ! Help Please.  (Read 29742 times)
EricWHiss
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« Reply #100 on: October 11, 2012, 01:58:16 PM »
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It's definitely a lot more convenient to have the 80mp single capture.  Work flow is very important when there are many items to shoot.  The time savings alone could justify the 80mp back for busy groups.
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« Reply #101 on: October 11, 2012, 04:34:33 PM »
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Hi Nicky,

Personal I think you have made the right decision going for the Nikon D800. As I own a Leaf Aptus 75 and a Nikon D800E I believe you have made the logical choice.

My recommendation for a 24mm lens for landscape would be the Nikon 24mm PC-E lens as if you are taking the time to shot high quality landscape I assume you will be using a tripod so this lens with it amazing resolution and large image circle would be just what you need.

IMO

Simon
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FredBGG
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« Reply #102 on: October 11, 2012, 10:10:45 PM »
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Like I said. There would appear to be a huge difference between document archiving and art reproduction, which is what was being discussed. I'm talking about this kind of stuff -

http://www.engadget.com/2011/02/01/google-art-project-offers-gigapixel-images-of-art-classics-ind/

But yeah, off topic.

Interesting to see that for the "17 special gigapixel images -- 7,000-megapixel" photos of the prize piece of each museum they chose
to shoot stitching and with 35mm DSLR with motorized heads.

http://youtu.be/aYXdEUB0VgQ

http://youtu.be/jzZKMSMNjZ0

Very large part of the collection are very high res, not just the 17 prize pieces.

I looked at a few from different museums... many are 40,000 x 40,000 pixels.
« Last Edit: October 11, 2012, 10:42:27 PM by FredBGG » Logged
BernardLanguillier
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« Reply #103 on: October 11, 2012, 10:12:26 PM »
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I'm sure that 280/4 and D800 is a really nice combination!

The Leica is indeed a very special lens. It delivers a very sweet rendering, extremely sharp without ever being aggressive if you know what I mean. OoF areas are near ideal.

Another light stitch (4 images here):



This being said I was a bit disappointed by the flare behavior of my copy compared to the latest Nikkor with Nano crystal coating or Zeiss ZF glass.

But when the sun is not in the frame it is hard to beat.

Cheers,
Bernard
« Last Edit: October 11, 2012, 10:17:25 PM by BernardLanguillier » Logged

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bcooter
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« Reply #104 on: October 12, 2012, 04:17:15 AM »
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Once again, I can't imagine buying a system that you plan to keep for years, or at least the lens set for years without testing it.

I say this not because the Nikon is not capable, like I say, I've never held the new one, but I do know how to work a file and the medium format files really work deep.

In my segment of the industry there is a huge push to heavy post production, anything that will achieve a different look and style.

We went through the austere period of shooting a gazillion shots a day and now since most advertising and lifestyle look the same, we're back to working in styles that are more planned, more thoughtful, with more and more added post work to achieve something unique.

I'm not saying the Nikon won't do it, but as much as medium format has lagged behind dslrs in some usability, it took years for the dslr companies to make a camera that even gets close to what even a third generation digital back can produce.

As I mentioned I don't do landscape, but my studio does a lot of post work and to equate digital to the older world of larger format film, do you think if Ansel Adams was at his peak today, he would shoot a 35mm camera or a larger format?

I'd bet the larger format to be able to pull the detail out in layers and blend them, which is somewhat the digital equivalent of the old zone system.

Understand I'm not trying to sell anyone, especially the original poster because I think he had has mind made up somewhat before this thread got to two pages.

All I'm saying is I'm always surprised when I set down to really work a file, how much detail I can pull out of my old ghetto p21+ and p30+ regardless of pixel density.

We are right now finishing up a high profile image set this week that has approx. 12 layers per version, when finished we'll probably have gone through twenty layers including special effects.  I could have easily shot the job with any camera and it would be accepted, but I knew with the celebrity subject, knowing that each session would probably one yield 3 or 4 good selects and knowing how unique they wanted the look, out of my cases of Nikons, Canons, Leica and Phase backs, the only stills we shot were tethered to the Contax Phase.

The only footage we shot were with the REDs.  

And one more thing.  If you want sharpness and detail, regardless of format, get the heaviest tripod or support you can lift.  I'm serious, because if you want sharpness, detail and useable imagery, nothing will assist with that like a good heavy set of sticks.

As far as saving money on cameras, with professional cameras there is no money savings.  just like cars, you turn the key, they all drop in price.  You might not loose as much with a dslr due to the buy in price, but there is a reason why.

As far as taking that savings to fly and shoot in a location that is exotic or new, I've never seen anyone take a few grand in camera savings and use that as motivation to shoot better.  In fact i've found that the more you invest in something the more your inclined to use it to it's fullest.

It's funny.  My assistants all have dslrs.  The latest versions, 5d3's and one has a Nikon D800.  They all use them, but when they're shooting something that they really find important, they ask to use my digital backs.

IMO

BC

P.S.  One thing I strongly suggest to the mfd companies is to get your cameras into the borrow lens type of rental system.  We've used them from time to time and their prices are real motivators to test something for a week or two we normally wouldn't bother with, or rent an exotic lens that buying would take a long time to recover the price.  

« Last Edit: October 12, 2012, 04:22:54 AM by bcooter » Logged
torger
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« Reply #105 on: October 12, 2012, 05:36:33 AM »
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I think it will be a couple of years still before the true potential of DSLRs are revealed to professionals. Today people still think that looking at a Canon 5Dmk3 says everything about Nikon D800 image quality, despite that they are very different in the low ISO space. The only DSLR cameras today that competes in the traditional MF space - low ISO with flash - is D800 and D800E.

And even with those you probably need to be a bit of a color management expert to maximize the potential. Sure if you have an old MFDB system with a workflow worked out years ago it will be foolproof, while you probably need to tune the DSLR system quite a bit before achieving desired results. Early adopters with color management expertise will be able to cope with this, others will look at default settings in their favourite raw converter and decide from that alone. I still think MFDB may have a color edge since their color filters does not need to care about high ISO, but it's probably rather small.

When it is about subtle differences mythology will be stuck for some time too. Many will think MFDB is inherently better because that is how it was, and never really compare that much with current gear. Many want MFDB (or DSLR) to be better which also affects all this, there's a lot of psychology to it.
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gerald.d
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« Reply #106 on: October 12, 2012, 08:30:47 AM »
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Interesting to see that for the "17 special gigapixel images -- 7,000-megapixel" photos of the prize piece of each museum they chose
to shoot stitching and with 35mm DSLR with motorized heads.
I strongly suspect that the choice to go with 35mm DSLR was either driven by budgetary restrictions or lack of knowledge/experience.

Obviously for that kind of size you have to stitch, but I know for a fact that there are very, very, few people in the world shooting large gigapixels with MF kit. In fact, I may well be the only one.

I have more experience than most when it comes to shooting images of this size, and believe me, nothing can touch creating this scale of images from stitched images from an 80MP back.

Regards,

Gerald.

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yaya
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« Reply #107 on: October 12, 2012, 08:55:05 AM »
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I have more experience than most when it comes to shooting images of this size, and believe me, nothing can touch creating this scale of images from stitched images from an 80MP back.

+1

These guys also produce large scale stitched images with MF backs regularly
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Anders_HK
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« Reply #108 on: October 12, 2012, 10:36:15 AM »
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OP wrote have 5DII which is indeed a very respected DSLR...

... now to get D800 + 24 tilt/shift Huh  which are 3k + 2k = 5k usd... + maybe tempted get more Nikon lenses... and they will devaluate how much before sell ?

I changed systems in past; Nikon > Mamiya > Rollei and more, and each time changing is not only cost but learning curve... and headache selling, ebay, shipping, paypal...

Latest camera is not always best, although media market to sound as such. Buying MFDB back from an agent one can later upgrade at rather reasonable price.

Each to his and her own, I am just saying...

why not simply add a Cambo RC400 with a SK 47... that actually give more focal than mere the 47, because shift...

As I look back at my prior gear, I made three main wrong choices:

1) Nikon F100, I should have gone Mamiya 7, would have had larger slides
2) Nikon D50, D200, it was complete BS all raving of the latest greatest at time on the net, I have some really good images that I really wish had alot better image quality, would have been awesome if I had them from Mamiya 7 or a MFDB instead
3) Mamiya ZD, well that one was a clear lemon with a faulty design

Seems best is to have images with RAW/slides/negative with the highest image quality possible, and that can be better retrieved with newer processing in future...

Even image quality from a Leaf Aptus 22 back on a tech camera with an SK 47 should be a killer quality performer compared to D800 + 24 tilt/shift. Not to mention, less bulk & weight in bag...

Capture Integration has an Aptus 22 back for mere 5k usd... which should not devaluate much...

Not my choice or business, am just saying...
« Last Edit: October 12, 2012, 10:38:28 AM by Anders_HK » Logged
FredBGG
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« Reply #109 on: October 12, 2012, 12:42:11 PM »
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OP wrote have 5DII which is indeed a very respected DSLR...

... now to get D800 + 24 tilt/shift Huh  which are 3k + 2k = 5k usd... + maybe tempted get more Nikon lenses... and they will devaluate how much before sell ?


Actually if you look at the prices fetched for used Nikon or Canon lenses they are very good.

Just looking today the average selling price for a 24mm PC lens on ebay is about $ 1,700 New $1,990  = 14.5% decrease loss $ 290

Nikon 85mm 1.4g ebay average $ 1,500 new $1,674 = 10.394 % decrease

Nikon lenses come with a 5 year standard warranty, you have to pay extra for MFD extended warranty to match the 5 year Nikon warranty.

In comparrison:

Phase One Mamiya 55mm 4.5 ebay $3,226 new $4,990 = 35.351 % decrease loss $ 1764

Phase ONE 55 Schneider LS lens for 645DF ebay $2,600 new $ 3,990 = 34.837 % decrease loss $ 1,390


Bodies:

Nikon d700 on ebay average $ 1,600  New street price shortly after it came out was $2,700 = 40.741 % decrease loss $ 1,300

Hasselblad H3d 31  ebay $ 5,000  New $ 25,000 = 80.000 % decrease loss is $ 20,000

Schneider APO-DIGITAR 120mm f5.6 Lens with Copal #0  ebay $ 500 new $ 1,700 = 70.588 % decrease loss $1,200


MFD loses far more value then Nikon or Canon. No doubt about that.

That is good for the used buyer. Buy and sell pretty much at the same price. Bad for the new buyer.

If you consider that Nicky can sell the 5dII easily for $ 1,500 on ebay the upgrade to the d800E only cost $ 1,700.
Peanuts compared to MFD upgrades....

I think Nicky made a very good choice. Camera, water housing, tilt shift and loads of money left over for location photography travel.

Last of all if Nicky decides the D800E is not the right choice, they sell used on ebay for $ 3,000.... the loss is less that it would cost to rent of a short trip.



« Last Edit: October 12, 2012, 01:01:47 PM by FredBGG » Logged
Gandalf
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« Reply #110 on: October 12, 2012, 01:41:01 PM »
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You're making your decision before actually trying the alternative? This surprises me given that based on your travel schedule it would be arbitrarily easy for you to spend an afternoon actually shooting pictures with each system.


I have used a Phase One DF. It is, IMO, an overpriced piece of 1990s technology that has little business being on the market. I can also say that I will probably be buying one soon because I am tired of having my nose pressed against the rear glass of a DSLR and I like a viewfinder that is large but at the same time I can see all of it while wearing glasses. Those two pieces of of information will not be found in a spec sheet or published in any review. When playing with a D800 for a few minutes it beats the Phase in every way -- it's lighter but feels more solid, the autofocus is fast (comparatively) and it has more than one focus point. It has lots of useful technology that only Credo and IQ backs have and at 1/10th of the price. But when used for more than 15 min. in a store, there are other differences that emerge, and to Doug's point if you think MFD is a consideration, you owe it to yourself to get your hands on one to see how it fits you.

If you think the image quality from a D800 is good enough for you and your clients, you are probably right. The question becomes, what intangibles are there that maybe should also factor into the buying equation. I'm going through a similar search process right now and I can say that when one system clearly fits your requirements better than the rest, then the choice is easy. However, when looking at the lower end of the MFD market and the higher end of DSLR, the choice is much less clear.
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ErikKaffehr
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« Reply #111 on: October 12, 2012, 01:53:48 PM »
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Hi,

I would just add that the 47mm on an Aptus 22 is more like 33.6 mm and not the 24 mm the OP asked for. There are of course plenty options on a technical camera.

The OP was discussing Hasselblad H4D and not a technical camera.

I did never use and MFDB on a technical camera with a 47 mm, does it need center filter and has it issues with lens cast?

Best regards
Erik

Actually if you look at the prices fetched for used Nikon or Canon lenses they are very good.

Just looking today the average selling price for a 24mm PC lens on ebay is about $ 1,700 New $1,990  = 14.5% decrease loss $ 290

Nikon 85mm 1.4g ebay average $ 1,500 new $1,674 = 10.394 % decrease

Nikon lenses come with a 5 year standard warranty, you have to pay extra for MFD extended warranty to match the 5 year Nikon warranty.

In comparrison:

Phase One Mamiya 55mm 4.5 ebay $3,226 new $4,990 = 35.351 % decrease loss $ 1764

Phase ONE 55 Schneider LS lens for 645DF ebay $2,600 new $ 3,990 = 34.837 % decrease loss $ 1,390


Bodies:

Nikon d700 on ebay average $ 1,600  New street price shortly after it came out was $2,700 = 40.741 % decrease loss $ 1,300

Hasselblad H3d 31  ebay $ 5,000  New $ 25,000 = 80.000 % decrease loss is $ 20,000

Schneider APO-DIGITAR 120mm f5.6 Lens with Copal #0  ebay $ 500 new $ 1,700 = 70.588 % decrease loss $1,200


MFD loses far more value then Nikon or Canon. No doubt about that.

That is good for the used buyer. Buy and sell pretty much at the same price. Bad for the new buyer.

If you consider that Nicky can sell the 5dII easily for $ 1,500 on ebay the upgrade to the d800E only cost $ 1,700.
Peanuts compared to MFD upgrades....

I think Nicky made a very good choice. Camera, water housing, tilt shift and loads of money left over for location photography travel.

Last of all if Nicky decides the D800E is not the right choice, they sell used on ebay for $ 3,000.... the loss is less that it would cost to rent of a short trip.




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bcooter
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« Reply #112 on: October 12, 2012, 01:58:16 PM »
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snip....

MFD loses far more value then Nikon or Canon. No doubt about that.

snip.


I don't agree.

My outlook is always for the "long term" bottom line.

I bought my p30+ in December 2006.   I got a good deal from CI in atlanta and after 6 years I guess the average costs of the back is a little more than $5,700, not including the tax depreciation.  In rentals we charge, which I am modest on, I know it's rented out for much more than that and if I sold it today a p30+ in Contax mount will go for at least $6,000, because I've been offered more than that.  So bottom line is profit.

The cameras the digital backs go on, my Contax(s) I know I can sell every thing I own for more than I paid, even if I bargain basement sold them to KEH.

The thing is I have no need to sell because they're still viable and I have a rule to not sell anything I couldn't buy back for the same price . . . at least something I use and enjoy, unless I just have to have something better.

Consequently, I have sold over 6 dslr bodies which usually sell for about 1/2 price after 2 1/2 to three years and at the time they averaged about $6,000 per body.  That's $15,000 in depreciation, though really less as we charge rentals on those also (though less than mfd) and of course there is tax amortization.

Still, comparing my mfd and the dslrs, the mfd comes out better in the long term.

Right now our two 1ds3's are due to be replaced.  Our p30+ and Contax I assume I'll get another few years (or more) of use out of them.

I think the OP's original idea of buying one generation back, whether it be a hasselblad, a phase or leaf back is a good idea.  Maybe not future proof in use, but I know he can use them for a long, long time and unless your just a camera buff that has to have the newest and latest, over a few years the costs more than equal out.

As far as repairs, I've had shutters replaced on both my current Canons, one sensor replaced and the total costs has been a little over $2,200.

In regards to my Phase backs, they've had zero repairs and I don't just shoot in studio or under nice easy conditions.

But the real bottom line, especially for an advanced amateur is to use what you like as much as what you can bill out.  If you like it, buy it.  If your trying to save money on the front end, then mfd may not be the best way to go, though after buying just about every type of equipment in my career, I know the equipment that we use long term is the most expensive on the front end, because it was the most professional and in my view more robust.

The second bottom line is the intangibles.  Everyone compares these cameras to cars.  You can buy a new Toyota all juiced out for $38,000, a used Maserati Quattroporte with warranty for about the same or a few grand more and the Toyota is probably more efficient, more full featured, might be more reliable,  but in my view not near as much fun as the Maserati.

Have fun.

IMO

BC


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Anders_HK
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« Reply #113 on: October 12, 2012, 02:05:27 PM »
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MFD loses far more value then Nikon or Canon. No doubt about that.

You are missing three important things !

1) A used "low end" back such as Aptus 22 will not devaluate much. It already has done so.

2) You also forgot to consider upgrade path of digital back. With a back for trade in you will stand a better chance to negotiate a better price on a more expensive back... at least per my experience. The dealer will appreciate your return business. Thus is important to buy from an authorized dealer/agent. At least mine in Hong Kong only resell backs that they know the history of, because they want to make sure they sell top notch product to make happy customer. Wink

3) Above 1 & 2 is a way to get into MFDB & tech camera without risk of much money, then to upgrade to a newer back later on.

Used price for gear also depends on market. Selling dslr gear in Asia some five years ago was not a particular winner to me...

"Low end" back may sound basic... but actually the Aptus 22 is a somewhat legendary back with a very good sensor. Aptus 65 cost about same and is one generation newer and same sensor as Aptus 75 but a tad smaller crop of it, which obvious would not matter on a tech camera... I had Aptus 65 prior and can much recommend it to anyone.
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Anders_HK
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« Reply #114 on: October 12, 2012, 02:16:37 PM »
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I would just add that the 47mm on an Aptus 22 is more like 33.6 mm and not the 24 mm the OP asked for. There are of course plenty options on a technical camera.

The OP was discussing Hasselblad H4D and not a technical camera.

47, you are right. the SK 35 would be the focal.

(note Nick and I have spoken about a tech camera outside of this thread - so it's not out of context)

//////////

A reflection is that it is funny how much we all jump in to advise, the choice is very individual... whether dslr or mfdb on whatever camera...
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torger
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« Reply #115 on: October 12, 2012, 03:57:03 PM »
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I would just add that the 47mm on an Aptus 22 is more like 33.6 mm and not the 24 mm the OP asked for. There are of course plenty options on a technical camera.

The OP was discussing Hasselblad H4D and not a technical camera.

I did never use and MFDB on a technical camera with a 47 mm, does it need center filter and has it issues with lens cast?

The 47 is my favourite landscape lens. There are some issues with lens cast, minor on the Aptus 22 but tech cam users tend to be perfectionists and then you would want to correct it, but there is no significant dynamic range loss. I think the hassle with lens cast and the need of calibration shots is generally exaggerated, the thing is that the tech cam workflow is in its bare form so slow that adding the extra step of shooting a calibration shot is minor. I always make calibration shots and enjoy the automatic fixing of vignetting (which can be a bit of a mess after shift/tilt) and dust spots too.
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FredBGG
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« Reply #116 on: October 12, 2012, 04:32:49 PM »
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Quote
FredBGG

MFD loses far more value then Nikon or Canon. No doubt about that.




You are missing three important things !

1) A used "low end" back such as Aptus 22 will not devaluate much. It already has done so.

2) You also forgot to consider upgrade path of digital back. With a back for trade in you will stand a better chance to negotiate a better price on a more expensive back... at least per my experience. The dealer will appreciate your return business. Thus is important to buy from an authorized dealer/agent. At least mine in Hong Kong only resell backs that they know the history of, because they want to make sure they sell top notch product to make happy customer. Wink

3) Above 1 & 2 is a way to get into MFDB & tech camera without risk of much money, then to upgrade to a newer back later on.

Used price for gear also depends on market. Selling dslr gear in Asia some five years ago was not a particular winner to me...



"Low end" back may sound basic... but actually the Aptus 22 is a somewhat legendary back with a very good sensor. Aptus 65 cost about same and is one generation newer and same sensor as Aptus 75 but a tad smaller crop of it, which obvious would not matter on a tech camera... I had Aptus 65 prior and can much recommend it to anyone.


Actually I think you missed something .....

The next line after what you quoted from me:

Quote
MFD loses far more value then Nikon or Canon. No doubt about that.

That is good for the used buyer. Buy and sell pretty much at the same price. Bad for the new buyer.
« Last Edit: October 12, 2012, 04:39:56 PM by FredBGG » Logged
FredBGG
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« Reply #117 on: October 12, 2012, 05:03:25 PM »
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I don't agree.

My outlook is always for the "long term" bottom line.

I bought my p30+ in December 2006.   I got a good deal from CI in atlanta and after 6 years I guess the average costs of the back is a little more than $5,700, not including the tax depreciation.  In rentals we charge, which I am modest on, I know it's rented out for much more than that and if I sold it today a p30+ in Contax mount will go for at least $6,000, because I've been offered more than that.  So bottom line is profit.


IF you are using the back commercially in a manner that you can charge the client for rental, if you rent it enough you can make a profit. Buying gold would have been better. Wink
Also you are still talking about an initial investment of over $ 20,000.


BUT for many here that do not shoot in a commercial realm that allows for rental you are talking about a very significant loss.

 
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BernardLanguillier
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« Reply #118 on: October 12, 2012, 06:48:34 PM »
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Even image quality from a Leaf Aptus 22 back on a tech camera with an SK 47 should be a killer quality performer compared to D800 + 24 tilt/shift. Not to mention, less bulk & weight in bag...

Capture Integration has an Aptus 22 back for mere 5k usd... which should not devaluate much...

Not my choice or business, am just saying...

Hi Anders,

Could you please provide more details about what you have in mind?

- what components would make up this system: back - Aptus22?, camera, lens,
- how much does each component cost: Back at 5,000 Us$ it seems, how about camera and lens?
- how much does each component weight and how bulky is it?

Finally, have you ever owned the Aptus 22 you are recommending?

Thanks.

Cheers,
Bernard
« Last Edit: October 12, 2012, 06:55:12 PM by BernardLanguillier » Logged

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« Reply #119 on: October 12, 2012, 06:53:17 PM »
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Consequently, I have sold over 6 dslr bodies which usually sell for about 1/2 price after 2 1/2 to three years and at the time they averaged about $6,000 per body.  That's $15,000 in depreciation, though really less as we charge rentals on those also (though less than mfd) and of course there is tax amortization.

If I may ask, why did you sell these DSLR bodies? My guess is that you sold them because DSLR were still in a phase of their evolution where their performance was not yet at the required level for your applications. This is clearly not the case anymore.

If you can keep a P30+ 6 years, you can also keep a D800 6 years.

Of course, you may have to change the shutter once, but the camera you will be mounting the back onto will also have to be maintained/repaired, probably at a higher cost that the equivalent DSLR.

Cheers,
Bernard
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