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Author Topic: New to site and DMF... Just in time with H5D ! Help Please.  (Read 33157 times)
ErikKaffehr
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« Reply #200 on: October 15, 2012, 11:57:08 PM »
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Hi,

I actually don't think that sample variations are to bad. Lens rentals does a lot of lens test as they test all outgoing lenses. There is significant sample variation but true lemons are rare. Zeiss lenses also seem to have less sample variation than Canon and Nikon.

So I don't think that Mamiya was cheating to much. I had little views on the test, except the test being done at full aperture with a projector. I think that is a standard method of assembly check out for lenses and a good method to see if the lenses are within tolerances, but lenses are mostly not used at full aperture. So in a sense the tests were not relevant.

On the other hand, if we look at the old photodo tests Mamiya lenses clearly outperformed Hasselblad's lenses according to the Photodo criteria for grading. One interesting aspect of those tests was that they were done at the Hasselblad factory by Hasselblad personnel using Hasselblad's MTF equipment. Especially Mamiya 7 was excellent.

Now, a single set of MTF data does not make for a complete description of a lens. It is a good indication of sharpness. Lens designers use MTF extensively. One of the issues with MTF that the curves say little about out of focus images, what we call bokeh. Lens designers produce large amount of MTF data with different focus.

Another observation is that MTF is not always comparable. Some MTF data is based on white light and another set may be based on monochrome light. Some MTF data is coming from lens design calculations and some are just invented by Sony's marketing department.

The Photodo tests were made in white light, and they are consistent with data published by Zeiss and Hasselblad.

I had a discussion on another thread with Stefan Steib, the man behind Hartblei in Germany. Hartblei uses Zeiss lenses in their TS designs. One of the lenses they use is the Zeiss 120/4. According to both Photodo and Hasselblad data that lens has not very high MTF. Diglloyd tested that lens on a Nikon D3X and found that it needed to be stopped down to f/11 but the image was really lovely, the only lens that he considered to be better was the 100/2 Macro Planar, another Zeiss design.

Now a lens that needs to be stopped down to f/11 will never be as sharp as one that peaks at f/5.6. A lens diffraction limited at f/5.6 is essentially twice as good as one that peaks at f/11 (Yes, this is oversimplification!). Why? Because diffraction, which limits a diffraction limited lens, is half as much at f/5.6 than at f/11. But there are other factors than sharpness playing a role. A third factor is that sharpening plays a major role in the digital work flow. A lens that sharpens well may be preferable to a lens that is inherently sharp but does not respond well to sharpening. This is just a guess, but it is feasible. I assume that sharpening assumes that PSF (Point Spread Function) is either a disc or a gaussian. A lens that renders a point as a disc or gaussian would respond better to sharpening than one that renders a point as a small delta wing.

Lens designers can do little about diffraction. A very badly designed aperture may cause some extra diffraction, but diffraction is essentially a property of light and only affected by aperture.

Best regards
Erik


Interesting point.

Reminds me of a post I made a while ago about a so called interdependent lens test on the Mamiya USA website.
Hasselblad vs Mamiya lenses..... so nothing to do with MF vs35mm DSLR.

http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=4&cad=rja&ved=0CDUQFjAD&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.fredmiranda.com%2Fforum%2Ftopic%2F1054836&ei=vs58UL2aIYfMigKG94DgDw&usg=AFQjCNELOqoKgaGfkuKiEj9kv3s-XhQcbg

The Hasselblad lenses were randomly picked out from a rental house while the Mamiya lenses came of the shelf at Mamiya USA. Roll Eyes
« Last Edit: October 16, 2012, 12:49:35 AM by ErikKaffehr » Logged

Anders_HK
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« Reply #201 on: October 16, 2012, 04:20:20 AM »
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"Phase One camera system: http://www.phaseone.com
Watch professional photographer James Russell working with the Phase One camera system on a photo shooting for Phase One."



This was written and uploaded after both the Phase One AF was available and the DF was introduced.... blacked out Contax logo.... no mention of Contax

The P45+ is mere a introductory framing into the video... Intelligent people look at what is in the video rather than whine   Grin

0:39 into the video shows clearly he uses P30+ back.

Because Contax is blacked out, it is not shown what camera he uses.
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Anders_HK
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« Reply #202 on: October 16, 2012, 04:36:20 AM »
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The question is not "Does he use Phase?" because he does.. the question is what camera bag does he use?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UG7doq5Vshw&feature=youtube_gdata_player



Notably the Fuji GX680 per Wikepedia weights around 4kg... Dang, that is a heavy studio camera to carry in mere shoulder bags...

Any reports of photographers purchasing these bags and filing law suit for back pains?

Personally I use Tenba PBP per recommendation ca. 2002 of a photographer on Nikoninans. Sure many said Tamrac and Lowepro, but this one gent said his Tenba was the best piece of photographic equipment he had used and had been with him on many international travels. I now witness the precise same, it is the best piece of photographic gear I use and has helped me carry gear with comfort and trips worldwide, including a round the world journey. I tested out high end Tamrac backpack in shop at time by test loading it, and what a difference, with Tenba I could carry much more weight and more in comfort. I used to have back pain when younger, but over ten years none due to carrying camera gear, thanks to my Tenba.  Grin

Look he does it on Vimeo as well http://vimeo.com/23989310 --- It seems as false marketing.  Grin
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FredBGG
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« Reply #203 on: October 16, 2012, 01:27:42 PM »
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Notably the Fuji GX680 per Wikepedia weights around 4kg... Dang, that is a heavy studio camera to carry in mere shoulder bags...

Any reports of photographers purchasing these bags and filing law suit for back pains?

Personally I use Tenba PBP per recommendation ca. 2002 of a photographer on Nikoninans. Sure many said Tamrac and Lowepro, but this one gent said his Tenba was the best piece of photographic equipment he had used and had been with him on many international travels. I now witness the precise same, it is the best piece of photographic gear I use and has helped me carry gear with comfort and trips worldwide, including a round the world journey. I tested out high end Tamrac backpack in shop at time by test loading it, and what a difference, with Tenba I could carry much more weight and more in comfort. I used to have back pain when younger, but over ten years none due to carrying camera gear, thanks to my Tenba.  Grin

Look he does it on Vimeo as well http://vimeo.com/23989310 --- It seems as false marketing.  Grin


What do you mean by he does it on vimeo?Huh You make it sound like I'm posting the video left right and center. For your information I'm not, it was posted by Tamrac.
Also I don't see why you are accusing me of false marketing. Exactly what claims am I making in the video? Seems to me that all I'm saying is that I happened to choose a Tamrac back in the day and had them for 10 years or so. I also say that if I go back to get another I would get a Tamrac. It's actually quite a logical choice because I have a few Tamracs and it's really handy to stay with the same ones because the inside dividers are more interchangeable than mixing brands.

Do I at any point in the video say that the Tamrac bags are superior to any thing else?.... NO.
Do I make medical claims? NO.
Did I make any claims that the Tamrac bag makes it easier to carry my Fuji's.... NO.
Did Tamrac pay me? No. However I did get a call a month or so later saying that they liked the video and asked me if I could use another bag.
I took up the offer and popped over to their show room in Chatsworth that's actually not far from my house in the Santa Monica mountains.
I have to say it was a real treat to spread my camera gear over the table and play with a bunch of bags..... sort of like a kid with wood blocks.
Well if you think that with that they bought me off your wrong..... While the free bag was a nice and both appreciated and welcomed gift it was about 1/4 of my rate in studio
for the extra time we took to do the video shots and interview.

Derek, the young still photographer and videographer that shot the video was very pleasant and it was a pleasure to facilitate his work.

What do I think about Tenba and Lowepro? I think they are excellent. Tamrac, Tenba and Lowepro.. all good stuff.

And for a full disclosure...

Oh and just in case it comes out in the future I also have an autographed tripod that was given to me by Lino Manfrotto as a souvenier after he invited me and
another photographer for a weekend to the mountains in Italy for some fine food and pick our brains and exchange ideas.

I was sponsored by Polaroid for many years... free 8x10 Polaroid film for any editorial I shot... and I shot many.
I did along with Donna Fashion magazine let polaroid use a photo I shot for the magazine for an ad in a pro photography magazine, in the same issue I was on the cover of.
If I recall correctly I made no technical claims in that add. Just my name and the photo I think.

I did a few lighting workshops (2 or 3) for Elinchrom and got a free flash tube from them when I broke one a few days after a demo.

let's see... did I miss anything??

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heinrichvoelkel
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« Reply #204 on: October 16, 2012, 03:08:18 PM »
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Anders HK and Fred, as much as I respect one and I'm bored by the other, you should keep your little fight to yourself or to PM.

The D800e is great, a P65 on a tech cam as well, no need to discuss choices of bags, or cameras.

Let good photographers make their decisions and thats it. I hope.
 
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FredBGG
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« Reply #205 on: October 16, 2012, 03:22:30 PM »
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Anders HK and Fred, as much as I respect one and I'm bored by the other, you should keep your little fight to yourself or to PM.

The D800e is great, a P65 on a tech cam as well, no need to discuss choices of bags, or cameras.

Let good photographers make their decisions and thats it. I hope.
 

I did try the PM route, but got no reply...... tell you what.... I'll just not respond to him on the forum.
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Anders_HK
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« Reply #206 on: October 16, 2012, 03:53:14 PM »
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I did try the PM route, but got no reply...... tell you what.... I'll just not respond to him on the forum.

Hmm... this???

His email:
Sent to: Anders_HK on: October 14, 2012, 11:37:47 PM
Look here mr "I know everything" about MF."


Anders HK and Fred, as much as I respect one and I'm bored by the other, you should keep your little fight to yourself or to PM.

The D800e is great, a P65 on a tech cam as well, no need to discuss choices of bags, or cameras.
 

Any gear that works well for anyone IS great  Smiley

The annoying is when someone constant post wrong facts due lack of knowledge of e.g. MFDBs. Big deal? Annoying because misinforms? Annoying to those who use the tool to produce images and tries to inform frank of it?

It would be nice, if we all could maintain respect, and base on facts of actual insights and knowledge collected by actual use of gear discussed, such as we have actually made quality images with. That includes any tool, as compared to mere posting of Googling that after one long read of text in links does not concur with the info that the one who posted link wrote or implied...


Let good photographers make their decisions and thats it. I hope.
 

Much agreed. It does not matter what we shoot, use to shoot with or prefer, as long as respect and not constant argue against a gear. Same goes for constant sticking up, look here mine is about same as yours. Very silly...

I believe it is about the image, and encouraging photographers to learn more of experiences. That can help to advance in photography with tools that can spur us to our photography. That was no difference in film days as it is now. A larger format, or different format or camera can encourage your vision. Years ago when I posted on dpreview that I was selling my Nikon D200 and going medium format digital, Thom Hogan posted that I would be better off spending money taking a course in Photoshop. Complete BS. Going into medium format digital was the right decision for me and has really helped me learn and advance in photography. That does not mean we are all same. For some dslr is the best tool, it is all individual, is it not?

Anders
« Last Edit: October 16, 2012, 04:03:31 PM by Anders_HK » Logged
FredBGG
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« Reply #207 on: October 16, 2012, 04:45:53 PM »
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Seeing as you decided to post what was sent to you as a personal message in response to one of your postings I feel I need to follow up on the above posting.

I sent you that message after you posted a reply pretty much saying I don't know what I'm on about regarding the correct deffinition of SLR, even when I showed you that the Hy6 is an SLR according the the manufacturer. You still claimed I was wrong... and consequently the manufacturer DHW Fototechnik is also wrong.

Screen shot of the manufacturers website.



BH website:



Mamiya press release:

« Last Edit: October 16, 2012, 05:19:43 PM by FredBGG » Logged
Anders_HK
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« Reply #208 on: October 16, 2012, 04:53:04 PM »
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Oh dear. My post was above (#165).

End of story.
« Last Edit: October 16, 2012, 04:58:55 PM by Anders_HK » Logged
EricWHiss
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« Reply #209 on: October 16, 2012, 05:01:54 PM »
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It is so great to see DHW has a website up!  For so long they had only a place holder.  I'm a total fan boy, but their cameras are fantastic!  Their marketing... not so great. 
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BernardLanguillier
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« Reply #210 on: October 16, 2012, 05:03:04 PM »
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It would be nice, if we all could maintain respect, and base on facts of actual insights and knowledge collected by actual use of gear discussed, such as we have actually made quality images with.

Frankly, this is hilarious.  Huh Grin Huh

You have been doing exactly the opposite in this whole thread by:
- Recommending MF equipment you have never used (Cambo, Aptus 22,...) for applications you don't seem to be that experienced with (grand landscape),
- Commenting negatively about DSLRs cameras you have never used (D800,...),
- Commenting negatively about shooting techniques you have little experience with (stitching).

Note that I am not commenting about equipment at all here, I am only commenting about your behavior Anders.

As a final request to you, could you please let us know what pseudo you are using when posting on DPreview? We could perhaps have more fun by reading that as well?

Cheers,
Bernard
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Anders_HK
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« Reply #211 on: October 16, 2012, 05:16:40 PM »
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Frankly, this is hilarious.  Huh Grin Huh

You have been doing exactly the opposite in this whole thread by:
- Recommending MF equipment you have never used (Cambo, Aptus 22,...) for applications you don't seem to be that experienced with (grand landscape),
- Commenting negatively about DSLRs cameras you have never used (D800,...),
- Commenting negatively about shooting techniques you have little experience with (stitching).

Note that I am not commenting about equipment at all here, I am only commenting about your behavior Anders.

As a final request to you, could you please let us know what pseudo you are using when posting on DPreview? We could perhaps have more fun by reading that as well?

Cheers,
Bernard


Suggest you slow your horses...

- I looked really careful at Aptus 22 along with Aptus 65 when I went with Aptus 65.
- I near went with tech cam and will still head that route, have looked in detail at the systems for long time.
- Nope, I do not look negative on D800. Sounds like a great DSLR and for DLSR very high image quality.
- Nope, I do not look down on your stitching, but am of view that tech cam is higher image quality route. We may disagree, is ok Smiley

My Anders_HK is since number of year not valid on dpreview...

Above valuable to this thread Huh
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FredBGG
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« Reply #212 on: October 16, 2012, 05:26:07 PM »
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It is so great to see DHW has a website up!  For so long they had only a place holder.  I'm a total fan boy, but their cameras are fantastic!  Their marketing... not so great. 


Give that gem of a camera a sensor with cmos style live view and focusing off the sensor and I would be standing right beside you drooling Wink Many nice things about that camera.
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BernardLanguillier
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« Reply #213 on: October 16, 2012, 05:34:22 PM »
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- Nope, I do not look negative on D800. Sounds like a great DSLR and for DLSR very high image quality.
- Nope, I do not look down on your stitching, but am of view that tech cam is higher image quality route. We may disagree, is ok Smiley

Just taking one more of those many examples you are offering us to read in every single of your posts...

According to your own recommendation of speaking from experience... how can you comment that the D800 is great "for a DSLR", implying that it is not as great as other types of cameras, when you have not used one yourself?

You may want to try to answer these 2 simple questions
- "How do you know that?"
- "Why need to spend all that time convincing the world of something you cannot reasonably know about since you have never used the damn camera?"

Don't do it for me, just do it for yourself.

Cheers,
Bernard
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« Reply #214 on: October 16, 2012, 05:38:21 PM »
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Just taking one more of those many examples you are offering us to read in every single of your posts...

According to your own recommendation of speaking from experience... how can you comment that the D800 is great "for a DSLR", implying that it is not as great as other types of cameras, when you have not used one yourself?

You may want to try to answer these 2 simple questions
- "How do you know that?"
- "Why need to spend all that time convincing the world of something you cannot reasonably know about since you have never used the damn camera?"

Don't do it for me, just do it for yourself.

Cheers,
Bernard


I could ask you exact same of what you post.

Suggest we both give each other some slack.  Wink

Likewise appreciate if you not ask more and more to pull deeper... simply good if we can leave at respect.
« Last Edit: October 16, 2012, 05:40:08 PM by Anders_HK » Logged
ErikKaffehr
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« Reply #215 on: October 16, 2012, 10:51:36 PM »
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Hi,

It's OK to be a fan boy, sometimes ;-)

My understanding is that there is a long story about the survival of DHW, the folks working there have taken great risks and given up much.

Best regards
Erik

It is so great to see DHW has a website up!  For so long they had only a place holder.  I'm a total fan boy, but their cameras are fantastic!  Their marketing... not so great. 

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ErikKaffehr
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« Reply #216 on: October 17, 2012, 12:15:14 AM »
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Hi,

I guess that this is good advice to a few of us posting on this thread.

I would add that Anders recommendation of the Cambo + Aptus combination seems to be a reasonable one, weather he actually did use it or not.

I'm not a Nikon fanboy. But I can read, I can see pixels, now how to print, do some testing myself. From my horizon the Nikon D800/D800E makes a lot of sense. The performance of the Nikon can be estimated using published tests and other data. The Nikon and a truly excellent lens is yours for 5000$US, it is a bit hard to ignore the option, if making good images is all you want. There may be other factors like enjoyment of using a well built tool.

Very clearly, MF has some advantages, but those advantages can only be judged from real pictures. Some argue that you must judge a system based on own usage. In my view you can accurately judge some aspects by well executed test images. You can never judge anything from a web sized image, unless it shows a specific aspect of an image. So comparing actual pixels may be OK if the comparison is correctly done. Using available information makes a lot of sense in my humble opinion.

Best regards
Erik

I could ask you exact same of what you post.

Suggest we both give each other some slack.  Wink

Likewise appreciate if you not ask more and more to pull deeper... simply good if we can leave at respect.
« Last Edit: October 17, 2012, 12:19:47 AM by ErikKaffehr » Logged

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« Reply #217 on: October 17, 2012, 01:29:29 AM »
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Give that gem of a camera a sensor with cmos style live view and focusing off the sensor and I would be standing right beside you drooling Wink Many nice things about that camera.

Why wait for a CMOS sensor?   It's a fantastic film camera (perhaps the best?) and works quite nicely with the AFi-12 back. Revolving sensor really makes the ergonomics complete.   The viewfinder is excellent and I mostly manual focus with the screen. The 45 degree prism has 2.5x magnification.  I shoot hand held at 1/2 the focal length all the time.    That said we are lucky to have so many great cameras to choose from, new and old. 

« Last Edit: October 17, 2012, 01:33:07 AM by EricWHiss » Logged

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« Reply #218 on: October 17, 2012, 01:53:12 AM »
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I could ask you exact same of what you post.

Yes, you can.

And you will see that I only recommend what I know and have used myself extensively.

Cheers,
Bernard
« Last Edit: October 17, 2012, 03:18:10 AM by BernardLanguillier » Logged

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« Reply #219 on: October 17, 2012, 02:22:38 AM »
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Why wait for a CMOS sensor?   It's a fantastic film camera (perhaps the best?) and works quite nicely with the AFi-12 back. Revolving sensor really makes the ergonomics complete.   The viewfinder is excellent and I mostly manual focus with the screen. The 45 degree prism has 2.5x magnification.  I shoot hand held at 1/2 the focal length all the time.    That said we are lucky to have so many great cameras to choose from, new and old. 

It's a fine camera, but with film the larger GX680 6x8 negative makes me much happier... though my back sometimes will not agree.
Keep in mind though that I don't use the square format so I am comparing 6x8 with 4.5 x 6.
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