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Author Topic: Medium format and the Billboard Myth  (Read 11897 times)
RyuuzakiJulio
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« Reply #20 on: September 21, 2012, 02:10:10 PM »
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All the backs are 14 bit.  The last two bits are empty, so its not bit depth.

There is a huge difference, I shoot with a D800E and several lenses like 24-70, prime 85, among others.
And I shoot a 22 Mpx Aptus with an RZ with the 110 & 180.
The amount of information that can be pulled out of the raw files is completely different.
And to retouch I prefeer the Leaf Raw file any day.

http://www.photoshopessentials.com/essentials/16-bit/
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Slobodan Blagojevic
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« Reply #21 on: September 21, 2012, 02:23:38 PM »
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There is a huge difference...
The amount of information that can be pulled out of the raw files is completely different.
And to retouch I prefeer the Leaf Raw file any day...

When it comes to opinions, preferences and impressions, everybody is entitled to them, and so are you. But that does not hide the fact that you have no clue whatsoever when it comes to 14-bit vs. 16-bit debate. Linking to an article about working in 16-bit vs. 8-bit in Photoshop only proves your ignorance in that respect (hint: these are two entirely different matters). But that is not entirely your fault. MFDB industry depends on peddling myths like that.
« Last Edit: September 21, 2012, 02:26:13 PM by Slobodan Blagojevic » Logged

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Doug Peterson
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« Reply #22 on: September 21, 2012, 11:54:26 PM »
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Nobody walks happily into the sunset of their life; they fight like hell to avoid getting anywhere near setting suns!

Worst bit of psychology I've bumped into in a long time.

Lots of famous people have spent their last words commenting on how lovely it is to walk into the sunset of their life.

This is the last sunset! I am content.
~~ John Quincy Adams, US President, d. February 21, 1848

Is everybody wearing their sandals? I want everybody to be wearing their sandals. I know I'm wearing mine.
~~ Ethel Barrymore, actress, d. June 18, 1959

Friends get your swimtrunks, the comedy is finished.
~~ Ludwig van Beethoven, composer, d. March 26, 1827

Beautiful colors.
~~ Elizabeth Barrett Browning, writer, d. June 28, 1861

I am not the least afraid of the sunset.
~~ Charles Darwin, d. April 19, 1882

Why not? Yeah. I've got my sunglasses on.
~~ Timothy Leary, d. May 31, 1996

But I take it you agreed with my general point, philosophical differences aside?
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RyuuzakiJulio
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« Reply #23 on: September 22, 2012, 02:31:53 AM »
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Why don't you put an informative link instead of slamming harsh words. Too much splashing for a little cannon shooter. Calling people ignorant really make you no much better. Anyone knows files from MFDB are much better than little cannons or nikons. Therefor industry professional legends use them. Because they are simply the best. I used 35mm for long time and even an ignorant like me can see the difference.
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Rob C
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« Reply #24 on: September 22, 2012, 02:45:32 AM »
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Lots of famous people have spent their last words commenting on how lovely it is to walk into the sunset of their life.

This is the last sunset! I am content.
~~ John Quincy Adams, US President, d. February 21, 1848

Is everybody wearing their sandals? I want everybody to be wearing their sandals. I know I'm wearing mine.
~~ Ethel Barrymore, actress, d. June 18, 1959

Friends get your swimtrunks, the comedy is finished.
~~ Ludwig van Beethoven, composer, d. March 26, 1827

Beautiful colors.
~~ Elizabeth Barrett Browning, writer, d. June 28, 1861

I am not the least afraid of the sunset.
~~ Charles Darwin, d. April 19, 1882

Why not? Yeah. I've got my sunglasses on.
~~ Timothy Leary, d. May 31, 1996

But I take it you agreed with my general point, philosophical differences aside?



Ageed with your photographic point, but have no faith in those claiming to welcome the end as in finis!

But then, if you're famous, it's incumbent upon you to go out with (or pretend to go out with) a memorable quip. I've been thinking of mine, but can't quite get it together, possibly because I suspect that once I do, there will be little reason to hang around longer. After all, it's the apogee for all of us - once written, what's left to do?

Best just to keep working on it.

Rob C
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EricWHiss
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« Reply #25 on: September 22, 2012, 02:47:18 AM »
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Julio,
Nice work on your website.  It's been a bit rough on the forums lately ( and I'm as guilty as anyone).   Don't take it personally.  I'm in agreement with you on the MFDB files being superior but the bit depth issue is tricky. MFDB makers may use 16 bit electronics to digitize the electron count but its likely that not all bits are used. That doesn't mean 14 bit or 12 bit  analog to digital converters are just the same as 16 bit - its a good bet that the 16 bit electronics are better but its hard to say.  There are a few people that probably know all the differences really well, but without their input its just safer to say that the MF files are superior.  Mostly its people that don't use MFDB that want to continue to argue these points.   Even for billboards, the look of the image will be different so not counting pixels, there still is a different look and of course the color differences.
Eric
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RyuuzakiJulio
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« Reply #26 on: September 22, 2012, 08:48:07 AM »
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Eric:
That makes more sense. Thank you so much for taking time to look at my humble work. I have really just started working professionally 2 years ago, and I know there is still much to learn and practice. Perhaps I went off repeating nonsense I probably read on some reviews. There are video comparations about the bit depth comparations between a MFDB (hasselblad) and a D800E, and they show how much more information a MFDB captures on their raw files compared to any 35mm dslr. I have seen the difference on my own work experience with 35mm digital, MF film and MF digital. And maybe there is many factors that influence on the quality of the image, but after many tests I have done, I keep seeing a notable difference. Maybe I don't know all the bells and whisels, numbers and technicalities, but the difference is there.
I agree that a good image can be done with any camera and it's much more about a keen eye for detail and a complex mind that calculates many factors to compose a great image. But after so much work done to present a good setup, I feel much more comfortable obtaining an image with the most detail possible; not necessarily on size since I rarely see my work in billboards and most printers for that won't even use the full advantages of a huge image. But more details on the realistic color tones and smooth gradients that ease my retouching work by hours. Again I appreciate deeply your nice comment in my work and apologize for my lack of expertise in technical information.

Ryu
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Slobodan Blagojevic
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« Reply #27 on: September 22, 2012, 12:49:00 PM »
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Why don't you put an informative link instead of slamming harsh words. Too much splashing for a little cannon shooter. Calling people ignorant really make you no much better. Anyone knows files from MFDB are much better than little cannons or nikons. Therefor industry professional legends use them. Because they are simply the best. I used 35mm for long time and even an ignorant like me can see the difference.

First, the link: 16 Bit Myth, a thread on this very forum.

No, I did not called you ignorant. I specifically limited my "harsh" words to one area of your knowledge: 16-bit vs. 14-bit.

I said absolutely nothing about general superiority of MFDB vs. 35mm format, for a simple reason that this has been debated ad nauseum on this and every other forum under the sun, since, it seems, the dawn of the mankind. Trying to argue it is like a debate between believers and atheists, i.e., futile. What still does make sense to argue are cases like 16-bit vs. 14-bit, which are simply technical, factual and provable.

As for me, "the little cannon [sic] shooter," I do shoot Canon today, but in my film days, I was shooting Hasselbad as well (and still have it).

As for "industry legends"... they tend to shoot with many other cameras, in addition to MFDB, as well... just check this very forum. Horses for courses, as the saying goes. However, choosing MFDB is not going to make you (or me, or anyone else) an industry legend by itself, just like shooting Leica is not going to make you Henri Cartier-Bresson. Your style will. And then you will choose the tool most appropriate for the task, which might happen to be an MFDB.

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« Reply #28 on: September 22, 2012, 12:53:17 PM »
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... There are video comparations about the bit depth comparations between a MFDB (hasselblad) and a D800E, and they show how much more information a MFDB captures on their raw files compared to any 35mm dslr...

May we see that video (the link, that is)?
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« Reply #29 on: September 22, 2012, 04:42:40 PM »
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However is it not strange that MFDB companies do not post real comparisons that
clearly demonstrate significant inage quality differences.

You would think that due to the decline in sales of MFD that this kind of comparison
would help sales IF THE CLAIMS were true and did result in a significant difference.

The reason why this is not done is that the difference has become so small even with the very
best MFDB that it would hurt sales more than help.

One can clearly see it in the marketing strategies.

The truth of the matter is that other formats are developing much faster.
Sensors, electronics, ergonomics and lenses.

While MFDB and essentially Pro oriented equipment only companies like Hasselblad and Phase One
have an ever smaller market and RD budgets the 35mm manufacturers are large companies that
have massive resources and investments for example made in materials manufacturing divisions or medical divisions spill over into
their pro and consumer gear.
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RyuuzakiJulio
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« Reply #30 on: September 22, 2012, 05:54:42 PM »
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Here is the video for anyone who wants to see a compassion between a Hasselblad 40 Mpx vs a 36 Mpx Nikon D800
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9UBTE4xpvpk
(And I guess the Genius is going to jump in here, they didn't compare bit-depth)

Look Slobodan Blagojevic,

I find your comments very unhelpful and since your over processed work with your low end cameras does not attract me, and you are not an engineer that develops this 16-bit technologies, and have no real proof to show that this MFDB companies are lying on their websites, I will just go ahead and ignore your comments.

I don't know who in the world are you, or what are your qualifications to make statements like this:
"MFDB industry depends on peddling myths like that."
That is absolutely absurd and even offensive.
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« Reply #31 on: September 22, 2012, 07:47:01 PM »
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Julio,
Forget trying to argue with them. If they used MFDB much they would understand, and until they do they want to prove to themselves that they are correct in sticking with DSLR's.  

Fred, both MFDB and DSLR's have improved and I'm not sure DSLR's have advanced any faster.   Nikon went from 24 to 36mp and have stop more DR and one more stop high ISO.  But has the viewfinder or sync speed improved?  How about mirror shake?  I hear its a problem with the d800.  And Canon... hmm... lots of new stuff, but is it a big step?    Now if you exclude the phase mamiya DF body, all the other makes have improved and the backs have gone from 56 to 80mp with better screens and another half stop DR and stop ISO.  To me its about the same.  Phase managed to get 1/1600 sync speed which is an improvement even if there body still is slug.
« Last Edit: September 22, 2012, 07:49:17 PM by EricWHiss » Logged

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« Reply #32 on: September 22, 2012, 09:07:56 PM »
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Here is the video for anyone who wants to see a compassion between a Hasselblad 40 Mpx vs a 36 Mpx Nikon D800
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9UBTE4xpvpk
(And I guess the Genius is going to jump in here, they didn't compare bit-depth)

Look Slobodan Blagojevic,

I find your comments very unhelpful and since your over processed work with your low end cameras does not attract me, and you are not an engineer that develops this 16-bit technologies, and have no real proof to show that this MFDB companies are lying on their websites, I will just go ahead and ignore your comments.

I don't know who in the world are you, or what are your qualifications to make statements like this:
"MFDB industry depends on peddling myths like that."
That is absolutely absurd and even offensive.

I had the same conversation with a 17 year old about motorcycles today.  He is a big GSX-R 1000 fanboy, while I like my humble Ducati Monster.  In all seriousness, if you are new to the industry, know this:  clients often do web searches for photographers and see if they are someone they might want to work with.  Seriously. 

I agree with you on file quality of MFDB being better.  In absolute terms my Aptus 75 is better than my D800e.  That being said, 80% of the time that quality is wasted, and even when it is not, you have to weigh the extra production time over using a 35mm DSLR.  In my case it was about lighting.  I'd light a set for REDs and then face a situation where ISO 100 and 2.8 on an RZ just doesn't cut it.  My choice was to a), strike the continuous lights and rig strobes; b. Shoot a Canon 1ds3/5d2/d3x, or c. Shoot Portra 800.  Both A and C involve additional time, and time = money, so you shoot with a dslr.  Guess what?  No one knows or cares what stills camera I use.  They know what motion camera we use(d) because there were no line items for film stock, telecine, and they could check out rough cuts at the DIT station.

So what I'm saying is this:  if you can make MFDB work for you and your clients in terms of time and money, you will be rewarded with a superior file, at least on your screen.  I think the reality is that most COMMERCIAL photographers nowadays are better off with a D800 for just about everything and then renting a back when needed, or whenever a client will pay for it.  I have both, and really only use the DSLRs.  Its all shit compared to film anyway, except in terms of time.
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« Reply #33 on: September 22, 2012, 09:24:11 PM »
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Hi TMark,

Like you I to use the same cameras (Mamiya RZ, Aptus 75, Nikon D800E) set up like your self and I totally agree with your comments.

How ever I prefer the look of digital cause of its greater dynamic range over film.

All the best

Simon
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Simon Harper
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« Reply #34 on: September 22, 2012, 09:47:34 PM »
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Simon,

I do on occasion bond with digital.  It really depends on the shoot.  LR4 with Leica M files can be a profound experience.

T
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« Reply #35 on: September 22, 2012, 09:52:41 PM »
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Here is the video for anyone who wants to see a compassion between a Hasselblad 40 Mpx vs a 36 Mpx Nikon D800
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9UBTE4xpvpk


I saw that video.  I believe what it shows is that the Nikon doesn't look as good with skin right out of the box.  Leaf always has looked great for skin, better than Phase, better than Sinar (sometimes).

But the two shooters continue to propagate the marketing message, the FEAR buy, of feeling the necessity to have a better camera than the AD on set.  You need to be a better photographer than the AD, not a bigger spender.
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« Reply #36 on: September 22, 2012, 11:36:22 PM »
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Loved the website, HarperPhotos. Inspiring. And you just made a sale for Monteith's Beer, which is on special at my local grog shop.
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« Reply #37 on: September 23, 2012, 12:20:34 AM »
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Hi Ken,

Thanks for your kind words. Personally I'm not a Monteith's drinker I prefer Lion Red.

Cheers

Simon
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Simon Harper
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« Reply #38 on: September 23, 2012, 03:07:27 AM »
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One thing is sure, we would be living in a very boring world if we were all shooting with the only one party approved type of camera.

MF has many advantages and is clearly the best option for some applications.

Cheers,
Bernard
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« Reply #39 on: September 23, 2012, 12:56:03 PM »
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... Forget trying to argue with them...

Eric, where exactly I argued anything else but the 16-bit vs. 14-bit? And so far neither Julio, nor you, nor anybody else for that matter has, in this or any other thread, proved the alleged 16-bit advantage. In other words, whatever advantage there is, it is not because of those 16 bits.

Quote
... If they used MFDB much they would understand, and until they do they want to prove to themselves that they are correct in sticking with DSLR's...

Perhaps you are right. But then again, using the same logic, couldn't we say that the other side is just as well trying 'to prove to themselves that they are correct' in investing in MFDB?

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Slobodan

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