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Author Topic: Who of you use both MFDB and D800?  (Read 31649 times)
Doug Peterson
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« Reply #100 on: September 25, 2012, 04:08:17 PM »
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Really really truly awesome image!!! Any more???  Grin

Thank you Anders! Coming from you and your incredible work that means an enormous amount to me. It's part of a series I've shot for many years. I've included a few below and you can see more (technically many are NSFW) at my website. My idea is to treat the body with the same aesthetics, techniques, and compositions as a landscape, while trying to avoid the over-literal (IMO) nature of Allan Teger whose work first inspired me (along with, after the fact, many early nude shooters).









I do not follow how you can tell the DR from a jpg, because you do not know what adjustments have been made to the RAW file. In a studio shot you also do not know what the DR of the scene was. In the posted image of the lady with black trousers you can guesstimate the actual DR of the scene, but... you cannot really know what adjustments using curves, black & white point and recovery was made to the RAW file.

Or what am I missing???

The only thing you missed was I was joking. The internet is a hard place to show sarcasm.

We agree completely. Very little of the DR of a raw file can be told from a JPG. In this case the shooter posted the screen grab of Phocus' settings, but as you well know each software renders images different at defaults and Phocus, with that back, does have a tendency to render a file with a flatter toe (less use of reserve shadow dynamic range).

In fact probably the worst way to judge a raw files dynamic range is a JPG using the default setting in software. If the software's default settings included all available detail it would show a very flat image. Instead LR, C1, Phocus et al render an image according to their own in-house aesthetics with some eye towards historical standards (i.e. film) and industry defacto standards (e.g. the in-camera JPG rendering of popular Canon/Nikon).
« Last Edit: September 25, 2012, 04:15:38 PM by Doug Peterson » Logged

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Doug Peterson
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« Reply #101 on: September 25, 2012, 04:17:03 PM »
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Nice shot, thank you for posting it. I think you could quit your day job Wink

Thanks! But I love my day job :-).
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BernardLanguillier
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« Reply #102 on: September 25, 2012, 04:29:59 PM »
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Or what am I missing???

Sense of humor?  Grin

And a bit of logic as well... since you first use a jpg to demonstrate the supposed superior DR of your 80mp back then comment 2 posts later than a jpg cannot be used to demonstrate DR... Wink

The restaurant image is in fact also not that impressive a DR scene. Very soft typical eastern China light resulting from fog and acting as natural difuser, decision to keep inside of room pretty dark,...

So, assuming that the 2 examples you selected to show DR are among the most extreme you have shot recently, it would seem that the images you shoot/the kind of rendering you like does in fact not need that much DR. Nothing wrong with that, but this means that most recent DSLRs would suit your needs well from a DR standpoint.

There are of course many other good reasons to prefer shooting with a back, but why focusing on DR as one when all evidence shows it is not that relevant for your needs?

Cheers,
Bernard
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FredBGG
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« Reply #103 on: September 25, 2012, 05:05:27 PM »
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Thanks! But I love my day job :-).

Nice body scapes. Dough.
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Anders_HK
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« Reply #104 on: September 25, 2012, 05:18:41 PM »
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Thank you Anders! Coming from you and your incredible work that means an enormous amount to me.

...

My idea is to treat the body with the same aesthetics, techniques, and compositions as a landscape, while trying to avoid the over-literal (IMO) nature of Allan Teger whose work first inspired me (along with, after the fact, many early nude shooters).

Doug, My own photographic work is humble and for my own personal satisfaction. It is an essence to my life, a passion.

Allan Teger, interesting!! When in Shanghai earlier this year I found his work through a search on the web and I was keen to try out bodyscapes like landscape imagery myself. With difficult getting a good model for naked I compromised... It was fun, but I find your work far superior  Grin.

I include also a shot from another shoot. That one was arranged through Poco.cn who arranges amateur shoots in Shanghai and some other places in China. Most gents and girls show up with DSLRs. Perhaps I know more how to process files than most at such events, but my images humbly also tend to have characters that set them apart because I shoot MFDB. That shows even at tiny jpgs  Grin. That time a gent had a D800.  Here are my images from that shoot;
http://my.poco.cn/lastphoto_v2-htx-id-3083223-user_id-64555183-p-0.xhtml
http://my.poco.cn/lastphoto_v2-htx-id-3083200-user_id-64555183-p-0.xhtml
and his;
http://my.poco.cn/lastphoto_v2-htx-id-3075707-user_id-43172128-p-0.xhtml
and a 5DmkII;
http://my.poco.cn/lastphoto_v2.htx&id=3072421&user_id=58480991&p=0

Now tell from the images which has the better DR??  Tongue, or simply judge who interpreted the scene better in post if you rather will...
In the end who captured the best photographs? Nah, for that the camera does not matter as much. You can make good images with any camera, the choice is mere a choice of tool. Yet what I shoot brings me personally what I enjoy, towards and in the image. A Hy6 is also more discrete than a Nikon or Canon because most people do not realize what you are shooting with... until someone in those groups do and start asking price of it... sigh... And I aint rich, mere passion for photography and the image.

In China people do know the Rolleiflex brand... perhaps I should change my WLF to a Leaf one???  Wink

Best regards,
Anders
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Anders_HK
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« Reply #105 on: September 25, 2012, 05:38:13 PM »
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The restaurant image is in fact also not that impressive a DR scene. Very soft typical eastern China light resulting from fog and acting as natural difuser, decision to keep inside of room pretty dark,...

@ Bernard,

Are you referring to the dumpling restaurant I posted in another thread??? Seems you do not know Shanghai. That morning was very strong and high contrast light indeed. While I do not recall precise the DR of scene, it was maximum within the latitude of the sensor.

Attaching image...

Best regards,
Anders
« Last Edit: September 25, 2012, 05:45:33 PM by Anders_HK » Logged
FredBGG
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« Reply #106 on: September 25, 2012, 05:52:20 PM »
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Interesting D800 vs H4D 50 test.

http://www.photigy.com/nikon-d800e-test-review-vs-hasselblad-h4d40-35mm-against-medium-format/

It's particularly interesting how damn close you have to get to see the differences.

Also keep in mind that the Nikon lens used is not one of the best...

I tested the 105 macro and decided against it due to the chromatic distortion. Quite mild, but quite spread.
I did not test it at macro distances as that was not the use I was interested in.

Also a 105mm on 35mm is not comparable to 120mm on 645 when shooting this close.
A bit closer price wise too.... Wink

85mm to 120mm would have been better and the Hassy lens was set to it's best aperture while the Nikon was at it's most shut down aperture.

Due to the subtle differences in the test d800 vs H4D I think it is useful to see the difference
between the 105mm and the more advanced 85mm




The 85mm has much better micro contrast. and better chromatic performance.

The results of the H4D 50 vs D800 would have been even closer than this!

Original:


Crops





These two images are NOT CHARTS. Both charts and images have their place in today's reality.

These images are pretty clear about what is going on.

So are these numbers:

Hassy kit in the test $ 28,100
Nikon kit in the test  $  4,200

Things will get even more interesting when we throw this into the mix
and Canon's rumored 46MP camera... Wink
« Last Edit: September 26, 2012, 01:21:29 AM by FredBGG » Logged
ondebanks
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« Reply #107 on: September 25, 2012, 06:12:08 PM »
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Ray you aren't listening!

There are CHARTS that show how good the color is from each camera. You should not waste your time looking at actual images and judging the color for yourself. Just use the charts!

CHARTS!

Heh heh, very good Doug. Cheesy

But you know, as a scientist I also have a healthy respect for charts, once they are based on data of good provenance and sound analysis, or realistic models. I see no reason (yet) not to place DxO results in the former category.

I will never understand the knee-jerk rejection of such results by some people. There's a tendency for a reaction like "that's not what I see with my eyes, so I refuse to believe it". Should we always "trust our eyes"? Well, my eyes tell me that clearly the world is flat and that the stars are in orbit around it. But science has shown such conclusions to be fallacies, not reality.

It's important also to remember that there are things that DxO doesn't test and does not claim to address. Colour bit depth is one thing; spectral response curves are entirely different, and they, I think more than anything else, determine our impression of colour quality.

I'd also love to see long exposure dark noise being tested and rated. If that were to happen, we would not be long in seeing the majority of the MFD sensors losing serious ground in the overall DxO ratings.

Now for the DR debate. I think that some of the controversy may be explained by the way that DxO presents DR as a single number at each ISO (a single number is of course how DR is defined). This encapsulates the range between min and max signals, but says nothing about the signal-to-noise in between, all the way along the range and up to the max. A camera with a low readout noise (modern Sony CMOS) will have the edge at the dark end, while a camera with a large pixel well depth (a characteristic of many Dalsa MF CCDs) will have the edge in the middle and at the bright end.

Another difference is that they will achieve these performances at different sensitivities. The MF CCD needs lots of light to fill that pixel well, so it will be say ISO 50 while the Sony CMOS will be around ISO 100-200 - it needs 1-2 stops less light or else it saturates. Personally, if DR was a tie, and neglecting for a moment all other factors but DR, I'd much rather have the camera which achieves it at a higher ISO.

I see very, very little discussion of signal-to-noise in these debates. Probably because it's harder to quantify (one must work with individual colour channels in the un-interpolated RAW file) and naturally most photographers can't be bothered. But it determines the "quality of the DR" (not quantity). It's like, one guy says he can fit 20 people into a Mini. I'm impressed, but he comes back with 20 5-year-olds. Hmmm. Another guy says he can also fit 20 people into the Mini (see, again 20 people...same DR!). He comes back with 20 prop-forwards. Now I'm seriously impressed!

Ray

PS love your B&W series...some are reminiscent of Ansel Adams' Oregon Dunes...you definitely succeeded in your "body as landscape" goal.
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BernardLanguillier
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« Reply #108 on: September 25, 2012, 06:30:40 PM »
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@ Bernard,

Are you referring to the dumpling restaurant I posted in another thread??? Seems you do not know Shanghai. That morning was very strong and high contrast light indeed. While I do not recall precise the DR of scene, it was maximum within the latitude of the sensor.

I have never lived in Shanghai but have been there many times. Last time in March and I plan to be there again in October.

Frankly, these are pretty forgiving conditions. Come to Tokyo on a clear day and tell me about contrast.

Cheers,
Bernard
« Last Edit: September 25, 2012, 08:25:33 PM by BernardLanguillier » Logged

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« Reply #109 on: September 25, 2012, 10:14:14 PM »
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Fred,
In the case where you decided to post someone else's test and pictures (everyone please check the source pictures since they are different)  please do us all a favor and don't leave out the author's conclusion:

"Conclusion
There is difference, Hasselblad produced slightly more details and color was more balanced to a girl skin tone. On a first sight the difference in image details seems to be so minimal that it will be hard to notice it.  However, more I look at these images, more I see the difference in fine details: look at hair, areas under her eyes, etc. Twice as big 16 bit Hasselblad sensor delivers more texture and colors over 14 bit Nikon sensor. It is simply a matter of physics: 6 micron v.s 4.7 micron of a pixel size, and  much larger sensor area along with additional color information (16 bit v.s 14 bit) makes a difference."   

and after round two:

"My personal decision is to stay with Hasselblad and replace H1 P25+ with H3D39 or similar MF camera. Like Ive mentioned before, I need digital back to be deatachable and mountable on any other rig such as technical camera. Plus, I hate to clean 35mm DSLR sensors, and every time I swipe dust off from my P25+ Phase One digital back i smile: it is so easy!:-)"




And Fred I still don't understand what on earth is making you go through all the work to try and sell these Nikons .... I don't get it.  Don't you have a book to work on?   Wink   I sure do, but I hate to see misinformation being spread.  Come on, 'fess up! Are you on the Nikon payroll or what? Did they give you a camera?
« Last Edit: September 25, 2012, 10:18:42 PM by EricWHiss » Logged

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TMARK
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« Reply #110 on: September 25, 2012, 10:24:58 PM »
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"Conclusion
. . . However, more I look at these images, more I see the difference in fine details: look at hair, areas under her eyes, etc. Twice as big 16 bit Hasselblad sensor delivers more texture and colors over 14 bit Nikon sensor. It is simply a matter of physics: 6 micron v.s 4.7 micron of a pixel size, and  much larger sensor area along with additional color information (16 bit v.s 14 bit) makes a difference."


I agree with the conclusion in as much as he sees finer details and more natural skin.  I'm not sure he knows why there is an advantage.   As discussed, its not 14 versus 16 bit, it may or may not be due to sensor size.  No one seems to know the cause of the advantage.  Can anyone give a reasoned, not overly technical explanation? 
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« Reply #111 on: September 25, 2012, 10:43:44 PM »
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Both pictures are pure poetry!
Eduardo

Doug, My own photographic work is humble and for my own personal satisfaction. It is an essence to my life, a passion.

Allan Teger, interesting!! When in Shanghai earlier this year I found his work through a search on the web and I was keen to try out bodyscapes like landscape imagery myself. With difficult getting a good model for naked I compromised... It was fun, but I find your work far superior  Grin.

I include also a shot from another shoot. That one was arranged through Poco.cn who arranges amateur shoots in Shanghai and some other places in China. Most gents and girls show up with DSLRs. Perhaps I know more how to process files than most at such events, but my images humbly also tend to have characters that set them apart because I shoot MFDB. That shows even at tiny jpgs  Grin. That time a gent had a D800.  Here are my images from that shoot;
http://my.poco.cn/lastphoto_v2-htx-id-3083223-user_id-64555183-p-0.xhtml
http://my.poco.cn/lastphoto_v2-htx-id-3083200-user_id-64555183-p-0.xhtml
and his;
http://my.poco.cn/lastphoto_v2-htx-id-3075707-user_id-43172128-p-0.xhtml
and a 5DmkII;
http://my.poco.cn/lastphoto_v2.htx&id=3072421&user_id=58480991&p=0

Now tell from the images which has the better DR??  Tongue, or simply judge who interpreted the scene better in post if you rather will...
In the end who captured the best photographs? Nah, for that the camera does not matter as much. You can make good images with any camera, the choice is mere a choice of tool. Yet what I shoot brings me personally what I enjoy, towards and in the image. A Hy6 is also more discrete than a Nikon or Canon because most people do not realize what you are shooting with... until someone in those groups do and start asking price of it... sigh... And I aint rich, mere passion for photography and the image.

In China people do know the Rolleiflex brand... perhaps I should change my WLF to a Leaf one???  Wink

Best regards,
Anders

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EricWHiss
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« Reply #112 on: September 25, 2012, 10:47:58 PM »
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Different choice of color filters over the sensor.  If you want high ISO you need lots of overlap between the colors to bring down the noise but this reduces color fidelity.  DSLR's fit in to that but you don't notice this difference very much with big patches since there where the color is even over a larger number of sensor pixels the color is more accurately reproduced.  This is why DXO has high color sensitivity figures.  But actually a real object can vary a lot in color over a small distance.   Sensors with color filters selected for color fidelity instead of less chroma noise, can reproduce these color changes over smaller areas better.   Again DXO isn't going to show this, nor Imatest really.  I'll have to ask Norman Koren if there is a way to measure this with his Imatest software.  

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FredBGG
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« Reply #113 on: September 25, 2012, 10:54:05 PM »
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Fred,
In the case where you decided to post someone else's test and pictures (everyone please check the source pictures since they are different)  please do us all a favor and don't leave out the author's conclusion:

"Conclusion
There is difference, Hasselblad produced slightly more details and color was more balanced to a girl skin tone. On a first sight the difference in image details seems to be so minimal that it will be hard to notice it.  However, more I look at these images, more I see the difference in fine details: look at hair, areas under her eyes, etc. Twice as big 16 bit Hasselblad sensor delivers more texture and colors over 14 bit Nikon sensor. It is simply a matter of physics: 6 micron v.s 4.7 micron of a pixel size, and  much larger sensor area along with additional color information (16 bit v.s 14 bit) makes a difference."  

and after round two:

"My personal decision is to stay with Hasselblad and replace H1 P25+ with H3D39 or similar MF camera. Like Ive mentioned before, I need digital back to be deatachable and mountable on any other rig such as technical camera. Plus, I hate to clean 35mm DSLR sensors, and every time I swipe dust off from my P25+ Phase One digital back i smile: it is so easy!:-)"




And Fred I still don't understand what on earth is making you go through all the work to try and sell these Nikons .... I don't get it.  Don't you have a book to work on?   Wink   I sure do, but I hate to see misinformation being spread.  Come on, 'fess up! Are you on the Nikon payroll or what? Did they give you a camera?


I could not care less about selling Nikons. I am not affiliated with Nikon in anyway and I'm not interested in that.

I did not leave out the conclusion... for God's sake.... I linked to the article for everytone to read.

What I did add though is the lens issue. Just look at the difference between the Nikon 85mm and the 105 marcro. That explains the detail difference that we are seeing between the D800/105 and H4d/120mm
Angle of view of the 120 is 33 degrees. The angle of the 105mm is 23. That is a 36% difference. That puts the camera one third closer with the Hasselblad. That will change the specular part of the light coming off the face.
Does the Hassy look very slightly more dimensional... yeah... its three feet closer Wink

Other slight difference... the Nikon 105 macro lens has 14 elements while the Hasselblad 120 has 9. That is 10 more air to glass transitions to go through.

Quote
  (everyone please check the source pictures since they are different)

What do you mean by this?Huh?? How can I have changed the pictures if all I did was link to them. IF you want to play Sherlock Holms just right click and look at the links  Roll Eyes Roll Eyes Roll Eyes

Anyone that wants to have a better look can download the original high res images from their website. All you have to do is sign up for their newsletter.
« Last Edit: September 25, 2012, 11:00:36 PM by FredBGG » Logged
EricWHiss
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« Reply #114 on: September 25, 2012, 10:57:34 PM »
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Here's an image with subtle color change .... and a 100% crop (please make sure to view image at 100% in a separate window) showing how much color change there can be in a small space.     I don't have the D800 right now but if any of you with one wants to snap a few images of something similar....




« Last Edit: September 25, 2012, 11:00:41 PM by EricWHiss » Logged

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« Reply #115 on: September 25, 2012, 11:13:15 PM »
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Screen grab from AFi-ii 12 vs D800E  to show color differences.  White bal on backdrop on both - obviously both in Capture one.   Minimal makeup in this test so you can see some real skin. These were shot in my studio months ago.  One light, a Mola Demi - same position and close to similar framing as possible.    You can see in the film strip below the framing - She is more zoomed in on the nikon shot but the AFi has enough pixels that she is still bigger at 100%.  

Note: I'm not positive I would use the white balances selected for either image but I wanted to standardize so I clicked on the same spot in the background. I'm sure this isn't perfect. No adjustments made to the images in terms of exposure, etc. 

Things to notice - highlights on shoulder - shadows on face.  Lips and skin color differences. 
« Last Edit: September 25, 2012, 11:18:03 PM by EricWHiss » Logged

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« Reply #116 on: September 26, 2012, 12:26:52 AM »
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Hmmm.

How come the background of the leaf file is dark at the top and light at the bottom.

Also it looks pretty clear to me that there are more problems with the highlights of the leaf image. Just look at the ear the highlights on the temple and cheekbone.

Also the shadows on the leaf image are filled in by spill off her raised forearms so the colors on her right side of her face are different in both images.

IF the lighting is the same it's quite clear that the D800 has more range. Despite a brighter background rendering the highlights on the model
are less harsh.

I'm viewing on a monitor calibrated Monday with the Spyder Pro
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« Reply #117 on: September 26, 2012, 01:26:43 AM »
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Skin tones from one of my 35mm cameras...



Skin tomes from one of my MFD cameras



Both are capable of excellent skin tones.
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« Reply #118 on: September 26, 2012, 01:42:24 AM »
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@ Fred,

It really appears you not at all comprehend MFDB, yet you go through all this effort to argue DSLR is better. It is fine to prefer one or the other, but begs if you have sour grapes of an experience or something? Perhapse you can share of it?

The only problem I encountered with Medium format digital was with lack of design and implementation of ZD, but even that one under certain conditions brought me image quality that made my jaws drop, something I not see with DSLR. Come on, Leaf through a good dealer is stellar. I have not trief calling my gent at night yet but I have a feeling he would answer. Look at their project manager Yair who is all over net and providing email and other support to all users, and dealers like Capture Integration, Digital Transitions etc who are online here and even helping customers outside their market. Support and sales for DSLR are compkete junk in comparison.

My dealer in Hong Kong even gives help outside warranty, and helped narrow and test focus problem with Mamiya sytem I did not even purchade from them. Want to figure out why I upgraded??

And no I am not trying justify the $ I spent, rather important for me in spending that much of my private hard earned cash was I knew Leaf would deliver quality for my passion photography, thanks to Gavin in HK and his team, and Yair. I have not regretted it, though I sure could use thst $ at very current. I am thrilled of what my system is capable to deliver.

Perhaps you would share your real story, because your writing in no way seem correspond to others experiences with medium format digital, nor to your stellar work with film. Or do you have some of similar to your film work stellar work with MFDB for us to see???

In all respect.

Best regards,
Anders
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« Reply #119 on: September 26, 2012, 01:54:07 AM »
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Skin tones from one of my 35mm cameras...



Those 35mm skin tones look complete crap compared to a Leaf!!!! What camera is that???

Attaching a 4.7 MP crop from my Leaf AFi-II 12 80MP back.
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