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Author Topic: Who of you use both MFDB and D800?  (Read 35781 times)
BernardLanguillier
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« Reply #120 on: September 26, 2012, 02:10:50 AM »
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Those 35mm skin tones look complete crap compared to a Leaf!!!! What camera is that???

Be careful, I think he switched the 2 images on purpose to confuse the discussion.  Wink

Cheers,
Bernard
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eronald
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« Reply #121 on: September 26, 2012, 02:17:04 AM »
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Thread readers:

 Which 35mm and which MF are we comparing?
 I've seen both crappy and good cameras in both groups.
 
 A lot of the performance quality depends on the CFAs (Color filter array composing the Bayer Matrix)and it looks like every generation of 35mm cams has different CFAs.
 An then there are sensor IR and UV sensitivity issues, which interact with the lens being used ... I've seen cameras which can look through the skin, just about.

Edmund
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torger
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« Reply #122 on: September 26, 2012, 02:34:14 AM »
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Those 35mm skin tones look complete crap compared to a Leaf!!!! What camera is that???

Oh, complete crap? Really?

I think it's interesting when I see "A is slightly different from B, which could be due to difference in actual skin tone (if different models) makeup, lighting, white balance, color management or camera or a combination of those factors" some see "A is absolutely great and B is complete crap". Smiley

I think the description in photigy.com review is what I see -- you get 10% better image quality for 5x the price. I don't know how MFD is going to survive on that in the long term. Either quality must up (which may not be enough when a "good enough for any use" level has been reached by high end DSLRs) or price down so it becomes easier to appreciate subtle advantages.

Or maybe CMOS and more DSLR-like behavior would save the day. The thing today is that "well, I need a DSLR system anyway for the flexibility" so the photographer gets that in addition to the MFD and then after the D800 quality level many end up using the DSLR all the time because it happens to provide great output. If MFD could do what DSLRs can do (high ISO, live view, high speed) maybe one would not need to have that DSLR system on the side and then it would be easier to motivate spending the funds.
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torger
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« Reply #123 on: September 26, 2012, 02:47:59 AM »
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Thread readers:

 Which 35mm and which MF are we comparing?
 I've seen both crappy and good cameras in both groups.
 
 A lot of the performance quality depends on the CFAs (Color filter array composing the Bayer Matrix)and it looks like every generation of 35mm cams has different CFAs.
 An then there are sensor IR and UV sensitivity issues, which interact with the lens being used ... I've seen cameras which can look through the skin, just about.

Edmund

If one wants the best color DSLRs can provide Sony A900 is a good camera, and I guess the new Sony SLT alpha 99 may be the new king in that area, but I haven't seen any reviews yet. While sharing the same sensor technology as Nikon, Sony seems to focus more on color fidelity than high ISO performance than Nikon does when it comes to the color filter array.
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lowep
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« Reply #124 on: September 26, 2012, 03:17:46 AM »
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well, I need a DSLR system anyway for the flexibility" so the photographer gets that in addition to the MFD

According to Wikipedia: Consumerism is a social and economic order that encourages the purchase of goods and services in ever-greater amounts. The term is often associated with criticisms of consumption starting with Thorstein Veblen. Veblen's subject of examination, the newly emergent middle class arising at the turn of the twentieth century, comes to full fruition by the end of the twentieth century through the process of globalization.
« Last Edit: September 26, 2012, 03:22:24 AM by lowep » Logged
Anders_HK
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« Reply #125 on: September 26, 2012, 03:23:02 AM »
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According to Wikipedia: Consumerism is a social and economic dis-order that encourages the purchase of goods and services in ever-greater amounts.

@ Peter,

Correction per my humble mind in red above. They seem to say "throw away old camera, buy this new magic dslr, now have achieved more pixels"  Grin


Be careful, I think he switched the 2 images on purpose to confuse the discussion.  Wink

@ Bernard,

Thanks and well noted. Though I did not say I liked the other one either...  Wink
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BernardLanguillier
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« Reply #126 on: September 26, 2012, 03:28:12 AM »
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@ Peter,

Correction per my humble mind in red above. They seem to say "throw away old camera, buy this new magic dslr, now have achieved more pixels"  Grin

This of course is not applicable at all to MFDBs... Smiley

Cheers,
Bernard
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Anders_HK
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« Reply #127 on: September 26, 2012, 03:43:09 AM »
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This of course is not applicable at all to MFDBs... Smiley

Cheers,
Bernard


Of course not! They make offer us upgrade. Hy6 also offer upgrade our bodies.  Grin

(cycles are also longer, due more $ invest waisted)
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ErikKaffehr
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« Reply #128 on: September 26, 2012, 04:04:18 AM »
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Hi,

Skin tone is probably more about pleasantness than correctness.

A while ago, Alex Koskolov presented an interesting comparison between D800E and Hasselblad H4D40. He also included color checker shots. I have analyzed those color checker shots using Imatest.

According to Imatest the colors were significantly more correct on the D800E:

Hasselblad:

 DeltaE (mean) 9.8
 DeltaE (max) 22.4

Nikon:
 DeltaE (mean) 5.0
 DeltaE (max)   9.49

I noticed that in both cases the colors were oversaturated (Hasselblad 122.5% and Nikon 107%).

So I reduced saturation in raw conversion and gotten better results:

Hasselblad:

DeltaE (mean) 6.27
DeltaE (max) 17.1


Nikon:

DeltaE (mean) 4.16
DeltaE (max) 7.43

Reservations: This comparison was done using Lightroom. That is what I use.

Best regards
Erik



Thread readers:

 Which 35mm and which MF are we comparing?
 I've seen both crappy and good cameras in both groups.
 
 A lot of the performance quality depends on the CFAs (Color filter array composing the Bayer Matrix)and it looks like every generation of 35mm cams has different CFAs.
 An then there are sensor IR and UV sensitivity issues, which interact with the lens being used ... I've seen cameras which can look through the skin, just about.

Edmund
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pedro39photo
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« Reply #129 on: September 26, 2012, 04:04:31 AM »
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Those 35mm skin tones look complete crap compared to a Leaf!!!! What camera is that???

Attaching a 4.7 MP crop from my Leaf AFi-II 12 80MP back.

Anders your Portrait Leaf pic have a very bad lighting, its a bad example to show " a good skin tone from a DMFB"...
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pedro39photo
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« Reply #130 on: September 26, 2012, 04:15:52 AM »
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Here is a good example of my Hassy 39MP supreme color tones !!!...Look at the beautiful skin tones in the nose of the model !!! the details of light of the hair !!!
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Anders_HK
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« Reply #131 on: September 26, 2012, 04:47:15 AM »
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Here is a good example of my Hassy 39MP supreme color tones !!!...Look at the beautiful skin tones in the nose of the model !!! the details of light of the hair !!!


Talk about lighting, and the amateur shoots I have attended in Shanghai cost me a full 100 RMB each (~15 usd). I simply tried make the best out of the crappy situations...  Roll Eyes

 Grin
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Emilmedia
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« Reply #132 on: September 26, 2012, 04:50:28 AM »
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Honestly this whole skin tones discussion is more of a personal preference thing, as well as format. I think this discussion turned in to something else then people explaining why they still have or dont have their medium format camera in their bag. I dont mind, but i think people are kind of missing the point.

I'm really not that interested in charts, just your personal experiences Smiley
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Doug Peterson
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« Reply #133 on: September 26, 2012, 07:28:05 AM »
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I agree with the conclusion in as much as he sees finer details and more natural skin.  I'm not sure he knows why there is an advantage.   As discussed, its not 14 versus 16 bit, it may or may not be due to sensor size.  No one seems to know the cause of the advantage.  Can anyone give a reasoned, not overly technical explanation? 

The non technical explanation can be found in the priorities of design and the market for each camera. Like any company they each ask themselves "what can we do to sell more into the market we are targeting?" and then apply their resources accordingly.

For instance the skilled engineers at Nikon/Canon responsible for the sensor and related systems are given a list of priorities for the next camera it might look like this (referencing their previous camera):
 - Increased IQ at High ISO
 - Higher pixel count
 - Faster framerate
 - Lower cost to build
 - Increased IQ
 - New features (e.g. 60fps 1080p video)
 - Better/Smoother Live View

While the skilled engineers at Phase/Leaf/Hassy are given a list of priorities for their next system
 - Increase IQ at Low ISO
 - Higher pixel count
 - Better color nuance

Now of course just because it's not a priority doesn't mean it won't be improved. The D800 is an improvement in low-ISO performance even though I really doubt it was in their top few items of development priority (of course I do not sit on the board at Nikon so I'm only speculating).

But engineering is full of compromises so for instance you might have to trade [color] for [high-ISO performance] (technically referred to as CFA sensitivity range). Or you may have to trade [framerate] for [noise] (related to sensor read out speeds and ADC convertor selection).

One need only think of who the average buyer is for each camera (not necessarily a 1:1 match with this forum's members) to understand what their priorities will likely be. As one classic example Canon still does not have an easy (relative to other systems) way to lock the mirror up, yet they have a direct print button. This indicates to me they believe they have more users in the event instant portrait market and not-tech-savvy consumer customers than serious landscape shooters. On the opposite end Team Phase One has put a lot of design effort to insure compatibility with tech cameras - a platform which lacks autofocus, easy composition, or even an electronic shutter release. This doesn't mean canon cannot be used for landscape, just that the needs of a landscape photographer may not be high on the priority list when designing the system.
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DOUG PETERSON (dep@digitaltransitions.com), Digital Transitions
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TMARK
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« Reply #134 on: September 26, 2012, 08:43:35 AM »
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Different choice of color filters over the sensor.  If you want high ISO you need lots of overlap between the colors to bring down the noise but this reduces color fidelity.  DSLR's fit in to that but you don't notice this difference very much with big patches since there where the color is even over a larger number of sensor pixels the color is more accurately reproduced.  This is why DXO has high color sensitivity figures.  But actually a real object can vary a lot in color over a small distance.   Sensors with color filters selected for color fidelity instead of less chroma noise, can reproduce these color changes over smaller areas better.   Again DXO isn't going to show this, nor Imatest really.  I'll have to ask Norman Koren if there is a way to measure this with his Imatest software.  



Thanks Eric.  Makes sense, especially is you extrapolate down to the M8.  The M8 with certain Leica lenses, and low contrast lighting, and put through LR4, has some of the nicest skin tones I've ever seen.  On par or better than the Aptus 22/75.  The M9 was good, but not as good as the M8.
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EricWHiss
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« Reply #135 on: September 26, 2012, 09:04:07 AM »
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No one comments on the fruit images?    The thing about skin is that a lot of times we want to see it smooth and uniform, so maybe dslr's help?   
Fred your images look flat to me.  Top image in particular.
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TMARK
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« Reply #136 on: September 26, 2012, 09:38:44 AM »
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Those 35mm skin tones look complete crap compared to a Leaf!!!! What camera is that???

Attaching a 4.7 MP crop from my Leaf AFi-II 12 80MP back.

I like Fred's better.  But Fred is a professional portrait shooter, so his post work is excellent.  I mean that, truly excellent.  This is more a comparison of post work, which is an art.  I think all of these comparisons are not great, because any modern camera, and many "ancient" cameras like the 1ds, 1ds2, 1ds3, D2x, 5D, 5D2, all the old Phase backs, the Sinar backs, are capable of great skin.  Its more in the lens and lighting and most importantly, post.  The CCD cameras (including the M8) can have excellent skin out of the box.  The CMOS cameras need a little more work in post, but are capable of excellent, publishable results good enough for any client (almost).  With this comment I'm out, its too exhausting.

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Doug Peterson
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« Reply #137 on: September 26, 2012, 09:40:44 AM »
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No one comments on the fruit images?    The thing about skin is that a lot of times we want to see it smooth and uniform, so maybe dslr's help?    

I agree with at least half of that.

"good skin tone" is a combination of many technical factors. Rolloff, color accuracy/placement, color uniformity, and tonal transitions are all very important in the final look of skin.

These factors were played with in the chemistry of portrait-oriented films for decades and are played with no in a combination of sensor (CFA, IR filter, and inherent spectral response), profiles, demosaicing algorithms, and software tools/sliders.

The rolloff into highlights is very important as, regardless of lighting, many people find skintone more pleasing if the shoulder of reds in the skintone range are more gradual. This is a large component in the Leaf Portrait profiles, which I've found nigh impossible to recreate with any other camera using any profiling software (the color engineers at Leaf are clearly lightyears ahead of my novice level of color profiling and profile manipulation).

The color, and consistency of color is another factor. What the ideal skin color is for any given model/shot and how aggressively surrounding colors are moved toward that color are personal choices and a matter of personal/cultural/business aesthetics. It helps if the underlying system is capable of seeing the difference in a large variety of subtle colors so that if/when you want to smooth those colors out it can do so with better smoothness (color range feathering) and with less artifacts (e.g. cross over colors in shadows or bands of poor color in shadows). Both Phase One and Leaf provide a variety of very well made portrait profiles that provide for a certain amount of this color uniformity in skintones (reducing the difference between good skin and a blemish or path of overly-olive or overly-magenta skin) but importantly Capture One provides a tool in the Color Editor which (while not very intuitive) provides for a very nuanced control over this effect (usually you'd do this for a few images to your own tastes/needs and then save presets or ICC profiles which you would then use during/after shoots).

The tonal gradations also matter a LOT especially as the contrast of the light goes up. For instance a lower quality imaging chain may produce a "hard break" in skintone transitions from highlight to shadow. Software is part of that chain and in my (biased) opinion Capture One does by far the best job of making the best of those transitions for any given camera system. If the transitions are abrupt, fall on a visible line rather than along dithered and stochastic area, show color non-linearity (e.g. a shift from red to green in the shadows) then the overall effect of the skintone will be greatly harmed.

None of these factors can be effectively discussed in isolation, nor can software be discounted as each software package handles all of the above a little differently (in the case of Leaf Portrait Profiles in Capture One - a LOT differently). The skintone of an imaging system (lens+camera+lighting+software) is a complex thing and a good deal of it is subjective. But the inherent complexity is one reason to use a system that produces the results you find most pleasing with the least post-processing or tweaking - otherwise you'll be fighting to isolate and control the many underlying variables rather than simply enjoying good skintone.

And all the more reason you should test a camera system you plan on buying into in situations and manners which are relevant to your actual intended usage.

edit: I didn't even mention lens, but yes that absolutely matters too. The way detail is rendered (high frequency), transitions are rendered (low frequency), bokeh (out of focus areas), and color rendition are all influenced by the lens and any filters used in front of it.
« Last Edit: September 26, 2012, 09:43:22 AM by Doug Peterson » Logged

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TMARK
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« Reply #138 on: September 26, 2012, 09:48:10 AM »
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I agree with at least half of that.

"good skin tone" is a combination of many technical factors. Rolloff, color accuracy/placement, color uniformity, and tonal transitions are all very important in the final look of skin.

These factors were played with in the chemistry of portrait-oriented films for decades and are played with no in a combination of sensor (CFA, IR filter, and inherent spectral response), profiles, demosaicing algorithms, and software tools/sliders.

The rolloff into highlights is very important as, regardless of lighting, many people find skintone more pleasing if the shoulder of reds in the skintone range are more gradual. This is a large component in the Leaf Portrait profiles, which I've found nigh impossible to recreate with any other camera using any profiling software (the color engineers at Leaf are clearly lightyears ahead of my novice level of color profiling and profile manipulation).

The color, and consistency of color is another factor. What the ideal skin color is for any given model/shot and how aggressively surrounding colors are moved toward that color are personal choices and a matter of personal/cultural/business aesthetics. It helps if the underlying system is capable of seeing the difference in a large variety of subtle colors so that if/when you want to smooth those colors out it can do so with better smoothness (color range feathering) and with less artifacts (e.g. cross over colors in shadows or bands of poor color in shadows). Both Phase One and Leaf provide a variety of very well made portrait profiles that provide for a certain amount of this color uniformity in skintones (reducing the difference between good skin and a blemish or path of overly-olive or overly-magenta skin) but importantly Capture One provides a tool in the Color Editor which (while not very intuitive) provides for a very nuanced control over this effect (usually you'd do this for a few images to your own tastes/needs and then save presets or ICC profiles which you would then use during/after shoots).

The tonal gradations also matter a LOT especially as the contrast of the light goes up. For instance a lower quality imaging chain may produce a "hard break" in skintone transitions from highlight to shadow. Software is part of that chain and in my (biased) opinion Capture One does by far the best job of making the best of those transitions for any given camera system. If the transitions are abrupt, fall on a visible line rather than along dithered and stochastic area, show color non-linearity (e.g. a shift from red to green in the shadows) then the overall effect of the skintone will be greatly harmed.

None of these factors can be effectively discussed in isolation, nor can software be discounted as each software package handles all of the above a little differently (in the case of Leaf Portrait Profiles in Capture One - a LOT differently). The skintone of an imaging system (lens+camera+lighting+software) is a complex thing and a good deal of it is subjective. But the inherent complexity is one reason to use a system that produces the results you find most pleasing with the least post-processing or tweaking - otherwise you'll be fighting to isolate and control the many underlying variables rather than simply enjoying good skintone.

And all the more reason you should test a camera system you plan on buying into in situations and manners which are relevant to your actual intended usage.

edit: I didn't even mention lens, but yes that absolutely matters too. The way detail is rendered (high frequency), transitions are rendered (low frequency), bokeh (out of focus areas), and color rendition are all influenced by the lens and any filters used in front of it.

Thanks Doug. 
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MrSmith
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« Reply #139 on: September 26, 2012, 10:14:16 AM »
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Quote
Canon still does not have an easy (relative to other systems) way to lock the mirror up, yet they have a direct print button

The live view button. It's right there on the back of the camera. No idea where it is on phase but the H's have it in a stupid place next to the depth of field preview round the front.
One is easier to use the other is badly designed. Unless they moved it when they released the 'new and improved' H5
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