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Author Topic: Photokina - Shenhoa DSLR Adapter Plates  (Read 8014 times)
ErikKaffehr
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« Reply #20 on: September 27, 2012, 10:16:59 AM »
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Hi,

I got the impression that Anders has a lab making drum scans. I tested drum scans at a pro lab in Germany and got very good results very conveniently. But the cost was about 200$ per 6096PPI scan. I got much more less as this was a test and the owner of the lab made the scans at much reduced price.

Best regards
Erik


Anders, I love the Shen-Hao, and working with film (their 11x14 was my singular object of lust at Photokina), but you're alone on this one buddy  Wink

Using a 4x5 in the field (indeed even getting to where you can use it - which means loading film), is a detailed, methodical and at times delicate procedure.  Worth it to many, but acres less easy than pointing a DSLR.

You are right that few people do *spherical* stitches well, in part bc of challenges with pre-visualization.  I was very surprised to find out how hard it was to envision a 35mm field of view shot with a 50mm lens when I first tried this back with my D60 almost a <gasp> decade ago. But the odds of succeeding, for someone new to either form, is much higher with digital capture.

The real achilles-heel of film, however, is scanning. You may be the only human alive who doesn't hate scanning film.  More time, sanity and image quality has been lost infilm scanning than anywhere else.  It is the photographic equivalent on a colonoscopy.  Raw digital (and analog-printed film) kick the shit out of anything other than the very best drum-scanning on the very best scanners, calibrated by the best techs, and charged at the very top dollar.  Scanning is simply the weakest (or most costly) part of any workflow.  This is why I don't think people see 4x5 and DSLR stitching asalternatives to one another.

But hey, if it works for you,. enjoy! :-)

- N.

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Ben Rubinstein
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« Reply #21 on: September 28, 2012, 07:32:04 AM »
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The one who have best composed stitched images by rotating camera is B. Rubenstein over on getdpi. He uses a zoom lens to compose at one end and then do his stitches at other end of the lens, hence compose his image first on "half the 35mm frame".



Thanks for that Anders!

Bit of a correction, I pre visualise then compose with a 50mm lens, my mind 'sees' in 50mm, I then use a longer lens, either zoom or prime, basically whatever I have to hand, and do the stitching.

Bit of history. I started my current work with 4x5 and a Horseman 6X12" back. Problem was that I just couldn't begin to freeze motion with the 135mm focal length I was using, in those narrow alleyways I was getting 10 second exposures. Oh and then they stopped T55 Sad. I bought the Camera Fusion adaptor, no those lenses can't deal with all the pixels you are throwing at them but the tonal rendition, ooooh the tonal rendition of those lenses compared to modern over cuttingly sharp and contrast modern DSLR lenses. A different world. Now the problem with that adaptor was time and focus. In the pre-LV days, accurate manual focus was an absolute nightmare but when you are stitching across the frame in changing light, serious pain in the neck.

Then I finally went over to what I should have been using from the beginning. Spherical stitching. Instead of a Lowepro Nature Trekker full of gear, a small shoulder bag with a DSLR and 2 lenses. So much faster to visualise through the lens (harder to wander around with a 4X5 in your hands and the darkcloth over your head Tongue) then camera on tripod, shoot. Most of my stitches are under a minute from first frame to last. Then go home, output RAW files as flat TIFF, put into stitching program, make a drink while the numbers crunch, open the file in PS then start the usual dodging and burning, etc. No more expensive film, developing, cleaning, mounting, expensive scanning, dusting, etc.

I agree with you that there is a huge amount of stitching which is done for the sake of resolution and more resolution and even more. Pixel peeping measurbation. Heck there is a huge amount of the use of MFDB's with tech cameras and super over sharp digital lenses for the same reason. How many D800's are flying off the shelves for the megapixels numbers alone? I went for the stitching to try and replicate the tonality of LF film (it doesn't and neither does our Leaf Aptus II-8) but if you stitch using a LF lens, i.e. like the camera fusion adaptor, this shen hao or the cheap chinese equivelents, it does actually have the rendition of 4X5 if you have enough frames. It's the amount of imaging space per square inch of subject as rendered by a LF lens. You can't replicate it that rendition with a modern 35mm lens design. The only time I managed to come close is with this picture below. The lens had so much dust in it that I couldn't use it anymore for my wedding work but the look was close, not the same by any means but close to the look of a LF lens, all the modern crunchy contrast was gone Cheesy


Amiel, Jerusalem 2011


« Last Edit: September 28, 2012, 09:39:08 AM by Ben Rubinstein » Logged

Anders_HK
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« Reply #22 on: September 28, 2012, 10:46:44 AM »
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Ben,

My reference of your good work is very sincere, I find your images the best composed among what I have seen of stitched images. I view the image you posted above as a very prime example.  Grin

What you touch about pre-visualization, it is a very essence of photography!!! This is what Ansel Adams spoke of. You are right, it should be visualizing an image prior to lifting camera, and when lifting it confirming the composition and shot. Pre visualization relates also to the exposure and how we visualize in our minds eye the final image, or the captured data for our RAW file (or negative or slide).

Most folks stitching and using a tech camera seem to leave out this important step of visualization and are focused on technique as you speak of and pixel craving. That does not lead to good images. Per my own experience it is a very crucial step to accurate be able to view prior to capture through an optical viewfinder or other means of tool as the step once lifting the camera. Or as you do, as a 50mm lens, of course! It is likewise important to learn the view of your favorite focal lengts.

What I did over some years was change different formats and pick up not only some 4x5 but also 617, 6x7 and Leica rangefinder, while at same time growing from SLR, DSLR to MFDB. They are all different ways to see and view an image. Something I noticed was that e.g. 4x5 shooters who picked up a digital camera composed an image diffeent and I wanted to learn to see and visualize using these cameras. Nope, I do not have that many pictures with them. Of them the Shen-Hao 4x5 is plain so lovely to work with and to visualize and image through the groundglass (Maxwell Hi-Lux screen) that of all the systems I find it difficult to part from it because of that very reason. Else I sold near all I had of five camera systems the other year and use more or less solely a Rolleiflex Hy6 with 80MP Leaf back and two lenses. It does not take many lenses either because it is the image that matter, not how many focal lengths you have to confuse you in the bag. An essence with my Hy6 system is precisely the visualization I do when I lift the camera, since I view the scene on a very large and bright 6x6cm focus screen through a waist level finder. After the shot I get the image displayed on a large 6x7cm display on my Leaf back and can display histogram in overlay over the entire display if I wish, or even limit it to only viewing the histogram displayed on the handle of the camera body. These are all important parts in my image chain in making an image, and in particular pre-visualization prior lifting the camera and as I lift it up and compose the shot. I think what many photographers need to learn is that photography is all about seeing, and not about many gear!!! Admittedly, I was one of them.

Thus I would encourage anyone to try 4x5 or othe format. Likely the most important you will learn is a different way of seeing. So what if you do not scan it on a drum scan or even on a dedicated film scanner? Have fun to experiment some and learn more of visualizing an image. With these adapters that seem very affordable you can also experiment using a dslr on a 4x5, which seems great. But you should visualize the image on the groundglass first, and do upgrade the Shen-Hao groudglass to something like by Bill Maxwell.

With 4x5 I shot Fuji Quickloads with Velvia 50, but regrettably Fuji dropped making them the other year, and some months ago announced that they are stopping making 4x5 Velvia 50 period. That is sad in way, yet I am now all digital basically. However, I am very tempted indeed to try out some black and white films... just for the experience to visualize it, and on 4x5... and of course working more with my Shen-Hao Smiley. Shen-Haos are great tools. Some folks prefer Ebony that cost 4 times as much. Ebonys may be more precise, I did look at one. However, I prefer Shen-Hao because I like the teak wood... and they are cheaper and simply work really great Smiley.

@ Eric, I have not scanned any of my 4x5 but well done so with some of my 6x7. Yup, handed in to be scanned on an Epson V600 and also a select few on drumscan. Why should it be different for a 4x5 on an Epson 600? All it takes is to blow the dust off and scan it, should be simple to do on own as well. V600 is cheap but still produce decent. Drumscanner produce far better, but it all depends on what one want to spend, and what one needs out of the image. If I pick up some B&W 4x5 I may well attempt to mount them infront of my Hy6 and 80MP Leaf back... that should work too.  Grin

Ben, any chance you can link to a photo library with your images for folks to see more of your good work?

Indeed Dan Lindberg as you mention do very good work, www.danlindberg.com. It is I guess finding a system you feel comfortable as a tool for the image, but first and most about visualization!!!  Grin

Best regards,
Anders
« Last Edit: September 28, 2012, 11:01:46 AM by Anders_HK » Logged
BernardLanguillier
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« Reply #23 on: September 28, 2012, 08:41:14 PM »
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Most folks stitching and using a tech camera seem to leave out this important step of visualization and are focused on technique as you speak of and pixel craving.

How do you know that?

Cheers,
Bernard
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Anders_HK
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« Reply #24 on: September 28, 2012, 09:45:44 PM »
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How do you know that?

Cheers,
Bernard


It shows in the image.
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BernardLanguillier
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« Reply #25 on: September 28, 2012, 11:04:58 PM »
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It shows in the image.

In what image?

You do realize that the existence of an example of a negative is not a valid logical proof that the positive is a false proposition?

Cheers,
Bernard
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Ben Rubinstein
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« Reply #26 on: September 29, 2012, 12:20:38 PM »
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Ben, any chance you can link to a photo library with your images for folks to see more of your good work?

Best regards,
Anders

www.timelessjewishart.com the 'Timeless Collection' is almost all stitched. The contemplation section is a mixture of a rather unconventional use of a lensbaby composer and a Pentax Super Takumar 50mm f1.4 shot wide open. I wanted to give a photographic answer to my own use of stitching to get creamy tonality and incredible resolution so using these lenses I set out to photograph in a way that was, in my mind, what sketching is to a painting.
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AlastairMoore
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« Reply #27 on: April 30, 2013, 11:07:38 PM »
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Quote
Taking an image with a 4x5 camera involves:
- Unfolding the camera, more or less fast depending on type,
- [option] set the lens if it is not set yet,
- [option] set filter holder on the lens if needed,
- [option] mount lens shade,
- set the cloth,
- screw in the release cable,
- remove the GG cover,
- frame,
- pre-focus,
- apply movements if needed
- adjust focus by using a loupe in one or several parts of the GG,
- measure the scene with a light meter (in itself this takes a bit of time - need to check ISO setting,...),
- add center filter to lens if you shoot wide,
- compute modification of exposure taking into account the bellow extension, center filter, other filters,...
- set apeture and diafragm (typically need to move around the camera to do it),
- close shutter
- cork the shutter
- insert the film holder
- wait for wind to slow down to reduce below induced vibrations,
- take 3 bracketed exposures to be sure to have one right

So there is nothing simple about this process... it is, as you rightfully put it, "slow".


Holy thread revival, batman.

I came across this post on a search for reviews on those sliding DSLR backs for view cameras. I couldn't help but comment on your reply.. if this what it takes to take an image with a 4x5 camera, what does it take to capture an image with a digital camera?

- Take camera out of bag,
- Remove lens cap
- Place camera strap behind neck
- [option] set the lens if it is not set yet,
- [option] set filter holder on the lens if needed,
- [option] mount lens shade,
- Fit camera to tripod
- Insert memory card
- Frame
- Focus
- Measure the scene with a light meter (do you honestly want to use the Nikon/Canon engineers exposure value when they're not even at the scene you're shooting?)
- Wait for wind to slow down because digital cameras are getting pretty big these days and they make a fantastic windsock
- Settle on hanging camera bag from tripod because they're still not that heavy
- Take 12 bracketed exposures because everyone processes their images using HDR/tone-mapping these days, right?
- Chimp
- Take another 12 bracketed exposures because everyone processes their images using HDR/tone-mapping these days, right?
- Upload 16Gb of images onto your computer
- Spend most of the night wading through almost identical images

With all due respect, your list of directions on taking an image with a 4x5 camera could only have been more long-winded if you the described bus journey to and from the scene. You describe a complex process but the first seven instructions only need to be done once! Of course, you know this. It rarely takes anyone with a modicum of experience with a view camera to set up, compose and capture an image more than a few minutes. If it is as slow and complex a process as you describe, most images captured with view cameras would have been missed.
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kencameron
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« Reply #28 on: May 01, 2013, 01:33:19 AM »
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www.timelessjewishart.com the 'Timeless Collection' is almost all stitched.... 
Lovely work. FWIW, on my laptop I felt the web site does it less than justice, because the enlarged versions are too small. Less of a problem on my larger and high resolution desktop screen but I still felt I had to take the images a bit on trust - which I was more than willing to do. I guess there is a trade off with the size of the image and the time it takes to load.
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BernardLanguillier
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« Reply #29 on: May 05, 2013, 06:58:03 PM »
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what does it take to capture an image with a digital camera?

- Take camera out of bag,
Oops, I forgot to list that one for 4x5...

- Remove lens cap
Yes, very true. Smiley

- Place camera strap behind neck
Don't one when shooting on tripod.

- [option] set the lens if it is not set yet,
- [option] set filter holder on the lens if needed,
- [option] mount lens shade,
I keep mine mounted all the time on all my lenses but 300mm f2.8 and 600mm f5.6.

- Fit camera to tripod
- Insert memory card
True once every 500 images.

- Frame
- Focus
- Measure the scene with a light meter (do you honestly want to use the Nikon/Canon engineers exposure value when they're not even at the scene you're shooting?)
Built-in meter is fine for calibration shot, histogram check and exp compensation for perfect exposure add 5-10 sec depending on your CPU and knowlegde of your camera behavior.

- Wait for wind to slow down because digital cameras are getting pretty big these days and they make a fantastic windsock
Hum... well....

- Settle on hanging camera bag from tripod because they're still not that heavy
- Take 12 bracketed exposures because everyone processes their images using HDR/tone-mapping these days, right?
- Chimp
- Take another 12 bracketed exposures because everyone processes their images using HDR/tone-mapping these days, right?
I haven't done a single HDR since I started to use a D3X 4 years ago, but HDR can indeed be time consuming if your equipment limits your ability to capture the dynamic you think you need.

- Upload 16Gb of images onto your computer
- Spend most of the night wading through almost identical images
True, that part can be time consuming if you shoot high volumes and have not decided to invest in the right computer equipment. Now it is not relevant if you use your DSLR like you would use a 4x5 camera.

With all due respect, your list of directions on taking an image with a 4x5 camera could only have been more long-winded if you the described bus journey to and from the scene. You describe a complex process but the first seven instructions only need to be done once! Of course, you know this. It rarely takes anyone with a modicum of experience with a view camera to set up, compose and capture an image more than a few minutes. If it is as slow and complex a process as you describe, most images captured with view cameras would have been missed.

And it is indeed my experience that, although I am shooting what I think is the most efficient 4x5 camera available, 4x5 results in a very high number of missed opportunities.

Now, don't get me wrong, I love shooting 4x5. But it is clearly a slow process, much slower than shooting spherical panos with a DSLR.

By the way, my check list applies to how I used to shoot 4x5: on the trail with my equipment in an Osprey 60l pack along with clothing, food,... I agree that things can be faster if you shoot with a car and can keep your gear pre-mounted all the time.

Cheers,
Bernard
« Last Edit: May 05, 2013, 07:57:11 PM by BernardLanguillier » Logged

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