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Author Topic: New Hasselblad 24mm Lens  (Read 8602 times)
TechTalk
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« on: September 26, 2012, 07:07:52 PM »
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Information is now available on the new Hasselblad 24mm lens. See link below. Price is $5,995.

An interesting lens to combine with the HTS tilt/shift adapter.

http://www.hasselbladusa.com/media/4232692/hcd24%20uk%20v1.pdf
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dumitru
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« Reply #1 on: September 26, 2012, 07:17:52 PM »
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Can anyone explain what the table at the end of the brochure means regarding different filter sizes for the different size sensors and T/S adapter?  I am pretty sure this lens has a front filter of 95mm and most likely a single size lens shade.  I could find a 95-105 mm adapter but no 105 to 112 mm adapter.  So I guess I am puzzled what is trying to be communicated her.  Any help would be appreciated.
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Slobodan Blagojevic
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« Reply #2 on: September 26, 2012, 07:39:10 PM »
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... I am puzzled what is trying to be communicated her[e]...

Larger sensor sizes cover a larger portion of the lens' image circle, thus revealing vignetting caused by smaller-than-necessary filter size. In other words, even 95mm filter vignettes, but it won't be visible on smaller sensors. The biggest sensor requires the biggest filter in order to avoid vignetting. Makes sense?
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Slobodan

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dumitru
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« Reply #3 on: September 26, 2012, 09:08:31 PM »
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Slobodan,
Yes, I would agree with your suggestion and this is what I first thought.  If this is true, then:  1) the lens shade would vignette on the 50 and 60 sensor;  2) if you wanted some type of filter on the 50 or 60 sensor (polarizer, UV, etc)  then you would need a step-up ring plus the filter which would be potentially thick enough to possibly vignette;  3) If you have the 60 there does not appear to be any way to go from a 95mm filter thread to 112m filter, at least I couldn't find any adapter rings to take you there.  Of course, hasselblad would say, this is an HCD lens and not really meant for any sensor size other than that on the H4D40 so use this lens on the 50 and 60 at your own risk of less than optimal resolution in the corner and a possible vignette scenario.  Any way, thank you for your take on this issue.  I just wanted to see if anyone else thought about this since I read somewhere that one could use this lens on larger sensors just with less than optimal results.

thank you
dan
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dumitru
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« Reply #4 on: September 26, 2012, 09:49:42 PM »
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Ah, OK, missed the sentence that says the lens comes with the necessary filter adapters for 105mm and 112mm.  Interesting, this suggests the image circle may be available for larger sensors but may be not the best quality.  Interesting.
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FredBGG
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« Reply #5 on: September 26, 2012, 10:23:19 PM »
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The lens has other issues on top of image circle vignetting.

Hasselblad decided to not make this lens work with film backs most likely due to the very high light falloff that has to be corrected in post.

Fall off at the corners of the larger sensors is just over two stops (100 at the center and 20 in the corners). While this is corrected digitally it is like pushing your images
2 stops in post.. for the corners. That is going to increase noise in the corners especially if need to shoot higher ISO.

It's a trade off. They have previously state that it is to reduce CA inexpensively and to keep weight down. I wonder how this trade off will pay off
in the field.

It would be nice if they came out with a graduated center spot filter to correct this and not push the corners digitally. Would be a better option for landscape.

That said some people like brightness fall off in lenses... sometimes it's quite nice.

The fall off is less as you stop down but it may still be significant. It is still about a stop at f8. Should be minimal at f16.
« Last Edit: September 26, 2012, 10:29:33 PM by FredBGG » Logged
Slobodan Blagojevic
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« Reply #6 on: September 26, 2012, 10:26:39 PM »
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... 2) if you wanted some type of filter on the 50 or 60 sensor (polarizer, UV, etc)  then you would need a step-up ring plus the filter which would be potentially thick enough to possibly vignette...

For such a super-wide angle lens, a polarizer is not recommended anyway (uneven polarization effect in the sky). More than one thin, screw-in, filter of any other type is also not recommended (combined glass surfaces, vignetting).
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Slobodan

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FredBGG
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« Reply #7 on: September 26, 2012, 10:32:15 PM »
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No polarizer is rather limiting for landscape. It would have been nice to have an internal one.
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Nick-T
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« Reply #8 on: September 26, 2012, 11:32:34 PM »
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Hasselblad decided to not make this lens work with film backs most likely due to [my italics]

Wouldn't it be nice if we could have one single solitary Hasselblad thread without someone coming here to bash.. I have the 28mm which is a digital lens and have never seen any of the issues Fred considers likely. I haven't laid eyes on a 24mm yet so certainly wouldn't comment on what it's shortcomings might be if any.

Nick-T
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FredBGG
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« Reply #9 on: September 26, 2012, 11:50:46 PM »
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Wouldn't it be nice if we could have one single solitary Hasselblad thread without someone coming here to bash.. I have the 28mm which is a digital lens and have never seen any of the issues Fred considers likely. I haven't laid eyes on a 24mm yet so certainly wouldn't comment on what it's shortcomings might be if any.

Nick-T

Boy some people are touchy....

I'm just pointing out the design characteristics/philosophy behind this less
as they are documented in Hasselblads own documentation:



Look at the illumination fall off graph and the distortion graph.

The native image of the lens (as  illustrated by this data) would not look nice on a film image.
two stops of light falloff and -4 percent distortion. Hence Hasselblad chose to disable the lens
with film backs.

There is some discussion of this digital lens design approach in the Hasselblad paper here:
http://www.hasselbladusa.com/media/1663950/intothebigwideopen.pdf

There are pro's and cons to this.

Shooting high ISO wide open could be a problem if you don't like vignetting and what the image to be as clean in the center as
the edges.

Pros are a less expensive lens that is less expensive for the end user and more profitable for Hasselblad.
The approach has also been done to favor those things that are harder to correct digitally and to keep size down.

Digital correction of distortion actually works quite nicely if the file is very large and the distortion is a -% (pin cushion)...
not cropping required.
« Last Edit: September 27, 2012, 12:21:29 AM by FredBGG » Logged
David Watson
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« Reply #10 on: September 27, 2012, 02:16:32 AM »
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Wouldn't it be nice if we could have one single solitary Hasselblad thread without someone coming here to bash.. I have the 28mm which is a digital lens and have never seen any of the issues Fred considers likely. I haven't laid eyes on a 24mm yet so certainly wouldn't comment on what it's shortcomings might be if any.

Nick-T

Nick

I think that, in this instance, the forum thread is not bashing Hasselblad but merely trying to clarify the strengths and weaknesses of the new lens.  It would be helpful if Hasselblad issued clearer information regarding the use of this lens on the 60mp cameras for example without someone with the necessary technical knowledge interpreting the graphs.

In respect of bashing Hasselblad I think the widespread criticism of the Lunar is probably justified.  I also think that the new pricing structure is misconceived.  My guess is that Hasselblad has lost a lot of friends just lately and will lose more.
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David Watson ARPS
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« Reply #11 on: September 27, 2012, 03:51:57 AM »
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Yes & you want to tilt & shift as well?...
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Mr. Rib
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« Reply #12 on: September 27, 2012, 04:22:35 AM »
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They should come up with a center spot graduated filter for this lens. If they don't do that, it's a big mistake. After all these tools are supposed to be tools for professionals right? So act accordingly H.
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bcooter
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« Reply #13 on: September 27, 2012, 04:23:52 AM »
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Nick,

I think this and some other medium format sites have always been Phase and now Phase/Leaf Centric.

I think part of that is it seems Phase had a larger market share from the get go and for a small company does a good job of aggressively marketing to the forums principles and getting them on board early.

Now as with any advertising it takes more than marketing.  I believe today Hasselblad has equaled Phase, maybe even surpassed in some ways, but I know on the day i bought my P30+, Hasselblad had nothing to match it.  They eventually caught up and they have by most accounts the most popular and superior camera to the other mfd makers, but in backs, for a long time they were a few steps behind.

Once again, I believe it is a equal playing field today.

In regards to the Luna, well . . . I don't know what to say about that.  It's not on my radar but wasn't made for me though you must admit with the rough version of the prototypes and over aggressive bling, it looks more directed to the Russian Oil company executive rather than the semi serious enthusiast.

In regards to the 24mm lens, I'm with you, I don't care if the final image looks good from software corrections or lens design, I just want it to look good.

Time will tell.

IMO

BC
« Last Edit: September 27, 2012, 04:25:33 AM by bcooter » Logged
JV
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« Reply #14 on: September 27, 2012, 05:39:08 AM »
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Boy some people are touchy....

Fred,

Not really but just like other people we are just wondering why you are bashing Hasselblad (and Phase One) in this forum on a daily basis.

If you are not affiliated with Nikon there must be something else that drives you.  Very interested to find out what that is.

Joris.
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dumitru
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« Reply #15 on: September 27, 2012, 06:13:38 AM »
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A number of interesting comments regarding the lens itself have been made and it seems to me:

1) Regarding the MTF charts:  in my opinion the 24mm compares favorably to the 28mm in all respects when the various parameters are put side-by-side.  I have the 28mm, use it all the time, and am very pleased with its performance when used judiciously given its angle of view.  I look forward to using the 24mm when it comes out and would consider it a special purpose lens for particular applications when the 28mm won't due or stitching is not an option.

2) Regarding a polarizer:  a polarizer can certainly be used in circumstances other than when the sky is involved.  Unwanted reflections from various surfaces under different circumstances can be helped by a polarizer as well as saturation issues of different materials outside.  Certainly distortion and sharpness/acutance issues will be present and hopefully helped in post either by phocus or other software options.  There is just no way around the physics of the lens and hopefully the combination of design and software will yield a valuable addition to the H lenses for special purpose use.

Anyway, an interesting addition to the H lens lineup and I look forward to seeing what it can do.

cheers
dan
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Nick-T
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« Reply #16 on: September 27, 2012, 03:42:57 PM »
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In respect of bashing Hasselblad I think the widespread criticism of the Lunar is probably justified. 


Hi David I quite agree.

This thread however is *not* about the lunar Smiley

There was also a thread about the H5D which quickly collapsed (as always) into a Hasselblad bash which was a shame, as the H5D has a bunch of decent (if minor) and much requested improvements and that discussion got lost in all the (usual) negativity.
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Slobodan Blagojevic
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« Reply #17 on: September 27, 2012, 03:59:14 PM »
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... just like other people we are just wondering why you are bashing Hasselblad...

Where was the alleged bashing in this thread?
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Slobodan

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Slobodan Blagojevic
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« Reply #18 on: September 27, 2012, 04:14:01 PM »
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... 2) Regarding a polarizer:  a polarizer can certainly be used in circumstances other than when the sky is involved.  Unwanted reflections from various surfaces under different circumstances can be helped by a polarizer as well as saturation issues of different materials outside...

True.

However, in fairness to Hasselblad, there are many other ultra-wide angle lenses that do not easily accept polarizers (short of home-made solutions): Canon 14mm, 17mm TS, Nikon 14-24, Panasonic 7-14, etc. Speaking of solutions, there is one for Nikon (see: Fotodiox), so there is a hope that somebody will provide a solution for Hasselblad too.
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Slobodan

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« Reply #19 on: September 27, 2012, 04:22:11 PM »
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Oh Slobodan,watch out, buddy.
I think the boys from sandbox "hasselblad" do not like you  Wink
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Best regards,
DF

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