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Author Topic: Mitt Romney's halo  (Read 69966 times)
Chairman Bill
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« Reply #600 on: November 19, 2012, 02:38:27 PM »
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Bill, you need to stop playing with words, step outside your dungeon, and look around you. The information to inform you is all there. All you have to do is open your eyes and look.

Are you saying that evidence of gods is out there? What sort of thing? Thunder as evidence for Thor or Zeus, perhaps? The sun as incontrovertible proof of Ra?
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Slobodan Blagojevic
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« Reply #601 on: November 19, 2012, 02:48:15 PM »
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Bryan, your statement sounds like classic Newtonian physics, which in many respects has been supplanted by quantum physics.   Maybe itís nitpicking in the broader context of this discussion about religion, but your statement does not reflect the generally accepted view of physicists.

Indeed. And not only physicists. There is a great deal, greater than we are willing to accept, of chance, randomness, probability, etc. that affects our lives. See the Black Swan theory, for instance.
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Slobodan

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Chairman Bill
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« Reply #602 on: November 19, 2012, 02:54:25 PM »
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So just what are you trying to tell us Bill. Those who choose to hold a faith are lesser and ignorant people? There are plenty of people who manage to live quite excellent lives without great knowledge of science, or any religion come to that.
Pretty sure I haven't said this, but those who assert that dinosaurs walked the earth 6000 years ago, or that Noah's ark really did hold seven of each clean animal & two of every uclean one, and the flood is all true ... well the jury's in on those, and the verdict isn't good.

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Bill, the only facts that are acceptable to you are scientific facts ...
Oh. OK. Thanks for letting me know.

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so when you seek to source them from the pool of religion you are bound to come away empty handed. That's the ultimate straw man argument!
Really? How have I set up a straw man here? Religions make claims about reality. Reality is subject to scrutiny. Where doctrine & observable facts fail to coincide, are you suggesting that doctrine wins?

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Religion is not about scientific facts
but it makes claims about reality, so opening itself up to scientific testing.

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... but if that is your understanding of it then no wonder you struggle accept other peoples less blinkered view of the world and the way it works.
Please explain how a scientific view, that amends its understandings in light of data, is blinkered, yet a religious view that seeks to make reality conform to doctrine, isn't.

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If 'facts' were all that life was about then then every successful person in every field of human endeavour would be a scientist and obviously that is not the case.
Really? Good job I never claimed that all life is about, is facts, isn't it?

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... Rather than pander to your rather unscientific fixation with the ancients and their goats let us look once again at the influence of later religions whose desire for symbolism led to flying buttress and vaulted domes, both of which were architectural developments which came about due to religion.
Er, no. The development of architecture owes nothing to religion, and plenty to human ingenuity. The church might have been calling the shots & paying the wages, but the problem solving wasn't based on reading entrails or conjuring up spirits. More to do with an understanding of angles than angels.

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I have already mentioned the improvement of pigments which was fuelled to a great extent by money from the church but art led us in all sorts of directions such as the desire for decoration and enlightenment, so lets celebrate the good that religion has brought us  rather than dismiss it's pagan origins and influence as being nonsensical and inconsequential
I'm quite capable of seeing the good things that have arisen from human effort & ingenuity, however inspired. None of that says anything about the truth of a religious viewpoint.
« Last Edit: November 19, 2012, 02:56:18 PM by Chairman Bill » Logged

Justinr
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« Reply #603 on: November 19, 2012, 03:05:21 PM »
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Well I think this sums it up -

Er, no. The development of architecture owes nothing to religion, and plenty to human ingenuity.

That just suggests an advanced and quite frightening state of denial. What are you scared of Bill?
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Chairman Bill
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« Reply #604 on: November 19, 2012, 03:38:33 PM »
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Well I think this sums it up -

Er, no. The development of architecture owes nothing to religion, and plenty to human ingenuity.

That just suggests an advanced and quite frightening state of denial. What are you scared of Bill?
State of denial? You think they prayed & an angel came down to give 'em the architectural drawings? Religion might have been the inspiration, but it was plain human ingenuity & problem solving skills that delivered.
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Justinr
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« Reply #605 on: November 19, 2012, 04:39:10 PM »
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State of denial? You think they prayed & an angel came down to give 'em the architectural drawings? Religion might have been the inspiration, but it was plain human ingenuity & problem solving skills that delivered.



We don't have to call on angels to provide us with a link to faith in the building of cathedrals but instead let us think of belief, self belief that is. The ingenuity of man is not just the ability to solve a problem but the faith within himself to make real that solution. The Romans were great soldiers and engineers but I doubt very much that they would have laid there mark on Europe with quite so much gusto if they didn't enjoy the confidence brought about tremendous belief in themselves, their colleagues and their social structure. We don't need to invoke gods or deities (Roman creeds were many and varied),  just a recognition that forces other than those measurable by modern science can create situations, bonds between people, where noble, and not so noble, things can be achieved. Whether it be the conquering of the known world, the building of incredible structures, the landing on the moon, all these achievements required something that went beyond the purely rational, something more than logic was involved and to blindly refute this, to dismiss out of hand something that we all have felt but it cannot be measured is a very sad stance to take.  

Now I have not asked you to believe in any type or form of god, I don't think that I do myself, but maybe one day you might take a little time off and lower your rigid defences to anything you consider unscientific. I have had periods in my life where, like you, I have confined myself to the unbendable cage of logic but then events and experience wore away at my self imposed bonds of rationality and now, if nothing else, I am far less grumpy and aloof than of yore and I actually like and get on with a lot more people.
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Slobodan Blagojevic
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« Reply #606 on: November 19, 2012, 04:45:56 PM »
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... now, if nothing else, I am far less grumpy and aloof than of yore and I actually like and get on with a lot more people.

Yes, we noticed Wink
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Slobodan

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Justinr
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« Reply #607 on: November 19, 2012, 04:57:31 PM »
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Yes, we noticed Wink

Jeez you should have seen me before, there are a couple here who will vouch for that.
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dmerger
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« Reply #608 on: November 19, 2012, 07:42:34 PM »
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Yes, we noticed Wink

 Smiley

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Dean Erger
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« Reply #609 on: November 19, 2012, 11:47:54 PM »
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Here you're mixing up the science with what people choose to do with it


Bill, you have been mixing up the religion with what people choose to do with it too.
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Bryan Conner
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« Reply #610 on: November 19, 2012, 11:58:09 PM »
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Bryan, your statement sounds like classic Newtonian physics, which in many respects has been supplanted by quantum physics.   Maybe itís nitpicking in the broader context of this discussion about religion, but your statement does not reflect the generally accepted view of physicists.
So a physics theory is the truth?  Do you have faith in this physics theory?  It is a theory, so it is unproven as a fact.  Just like religion.
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Bryan Conner
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« Reply #611 on: November 20, 2012, 12:10:59 AM »
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Geez.  This entire argument is over two opposing views that neither can prove the other wrong.  Scientists have not been able to disprove religion.  No scientific discoveries can be used to disprove religion.  Religion does not factually disprove science.  I have an open mind and have decided on the side that I feel the most comfortable with.  I have not intended to try to make anyone believe the same as I believe. I respect the person that does not believe in religion.  It would be nice if the certain non believers of religion would be decent enough to show respect to the ones of us on the other side.  Or, is respect for others beliefs something that is religious and not scientifically proven?
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stamper
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« Reply #612 on: November 20, 2012, 02:35:15 AM »
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Scientists have not been able to disprove religion.

That is because there isn't any evidence that a God exists.
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Tony Jay
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« Reply #613 on: November 20, 2012, 02:53:43 AM »
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Actually, there is plenty of evidence that God exists but an empiric proof is something else again.

Tony Jay
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stamper
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« Reply #614 on: November 20, 2012, 03:18:12 AM »
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I would be interested to see a link to your assertion. Smiley
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Justinr
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« Reply #615 on: November 20, 2012, 04:56:13 AM »
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First of all we have to define what is meant by 'god' and thousands of acres of forest have been felled over the centuries in pursuit of firmly nailing down that concept.
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stamper
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« Reply #616 on: November 20, 2012, 05:40:01 AM »
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If that is so then it is more proof that one doesn't exist.
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Justinr
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« Reply #617 on: November 20, 2012, 06:09:56 AM »
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If that is so then it is more proof that one doesn't exist.

No, only that there are many different interpretations of what many billions of people over the years have felt as a presence of a higher order or state. They could all be wrong or we could just settle for the cop out that God is whatever you think it is.
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Bryan Conner
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« Reply #618 on: November 20, 2012, 06:11:49 AM »
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http://fixed-point.org/index.php/video/35-full-length/164-the-dawkins-lennox-debate

This is a very enlightening and lively debate that I recommend watching.  Two very intelligent men make very good points.  
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stamper
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« Reply #619 on: November 20, 2012, 06:25:23 AM »
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No, only that there are many different interpretations of what many billions of people over the years have felt as a presence of a higher order or state. They could all be wrong or we could just settle for the cop out that God is whatever you think it is.

The fact that there are so many "models" out there and probably that some more are being invented means that it is all someone's mind? I would hesitate to call it a delusion but a psychiatrist might.
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