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Author Topic: People who ask about the D800 have never experienced medium format  (Read 37755 times)
hasselbladfan
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« on: September 28, 2012, 11:16:53 AM »
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Another extract from the interview with Stephan Schulz (Leica) :

Do you feel any pressure from cameras like Nikon's D800, which offer comparable pixel counts to the S?

Many people ask me this question, but people who really like to work with medium format don't ask me that.

Because they know medium format is about more than just resolution. There are still a lot of photographers who work with 22 and 31MP digital backs, and they are fine with the resolution, and they would never change to a 35mm [format] because the image characteristics are completely different.

People who ask about cameras like the D800 have never experienced medium format. They just look at the pixels, but the world is not only pixels. You can get small DSC cameras with 14, 16, 20MP but no-one asks 'should I buy that 500 Euro compact camera or a Canon EOS-1D X?'

This question comes only from people who have no experience of medium format at all.
« Last Edit: September 28, 2012, 11:54:54 AM by hasselbladfan » Logged
hasselbladfan
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« Reply #1 on: September 28, 2012, 11:23:16 AM »
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I personally love Leica products (the M and the old R) and I love MF (Hasselblad user since 1988), but I don't like this Leica arrogance.

Underestimating or downgrading competition is a big mistake (in all industries) !!

I remember the old days when Leica claimed that "serious R photographers" don't need AF Smiley.

Yes, they don't need it, but in the meantime they all use it.
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MichaelEzra
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« Reply #2 on: September 28, 2012, 11:32:42 AM »
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Why are we all trapped in this endless debate....

There are apples, and there are oranges - and we are free to buy and use whatever is needed....
Who cares! One is a fruit, another is a citrus, they both are tasty... If allergic - avoid, if not - enjoy.

In photography the content matters at least 95%, the rest is technicalities...
We should be mature enough to realize it and not be manipulated by marketing strategies...

P.S. not targeting this post, but rather the subject matter
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hasselbladfan
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« Reply #3 on: September 28, 2012, 11:55:30 AM »
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Full article :

http://www.dpreview.com/articles/6220714089/photokina-2012-interview-stephan-schulz-of-leica-
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ndevlin
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« Reply #4 on: September 28, 2012, 12:02:02 PM »
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Perhaps more accurate to say that people interested in the prestige of a Leica aren't interested in a D800E. In truth, they are very competitive cameras. The sports shots Leica displayed at Photokina as proud example of the "S" system's capabilities could have been produced to the same standard of quality with an 800E.

MF's margins (over 35mm) lie in particular kinds of work, and are small.  It is inaccurate to suggest otherwise. 

But he is certainly right that a constituency will always exist who want MF, period, and that that's who he is selling to.

- N.
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Nick Devlin   @onelittlecamera
TMARK
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« Reply #5 on: September 28, 2012, 12:22:25 PM »
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Why are we all trapped in this endless debate....

There are apples, and there are oranges - and we are free to buy and use whatever is needed....
Who cares! One is a fruit, another is a citrus, they both are tasty... If allergic - avoid, if not - enjoy.

In photography the content matters at least 95%, the rest is technicalities...
We should be mature enough to realize it and not be manipulated by marketing strategies...

P.S. not targeting this post, but rather the subject matter

Yeah, but buying gear is WAY easier than actually shooting something worth while.  If you do a google image search for Leica M9 or S2, you have more pictures of the actual cameras than photos taken with them. 
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Hulyss
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« Reply #6 on: September 28, 2012, 12:46:18 PM »
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My first experience of Medium format was a fuji 6x4.5 and, compared to film, Digital backs are just epic jokes. I sold my S2 because of that. After realising it was just a plastic tool, with a tiny sensor and that a real MF, a good MF film, do far better in global rendering at an artistic level.

The S2 is just a toy for rich in our actual world. The real soul is in film. Leica are just arrogant marketers, nothing more, aiming ppl who drive Hybrid cars and smoke up their a**.

Those are my first MF shoots ever.
« Last Edit: September 28, 2012, 12:49:16 PM by Hulyss » Logged

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Chairman Bill
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« Reply #7 on: September 28, 2012, 12:56:47 PM »
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I used to shoot MF film. When one of my sons managed to get hold of the camera & render it scrap, I had to decide whether I could afford to replace it - I couldn't.

So I've experienced MF, and am interested in the D800. I can't afford MF digital, no longer have access to a darkroom, and besides which, prints from my D700 are more than good enough for me. Plus of course, why I always also shot 35mm film, carrying a MF camera in my bergen over mountains & moorland, was never as nice as my Rollei 35, or indeed a Nikon FM & a couple of lenses. It's also why MF has less attraction than a D800. If I could simply park up, set up my kit, take a photo & then drive on, MF would be fine. A 30 mile yomp across Dartmoor or over Ben MacDui, with a Hassy & two or three lenses, is just more than my aging bones could bear. But with a DSLR, no worries.

So some of us have experienced MF, so Shultz is talking b*****ks
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TMARK
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« Reply #8 on: September 28, 2012, 01:06:16 PM »
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My first experience of Medium format was a fuji 6x4.5 and, compared to film, Digital backs are just epic jokes. I sold my S2 because of that. After realising it was just a plastic tool, with a tiny sensor and that a real MF, a good MF film, do far better in global rendering at an artistic level.

The S2 is just a toy for rich in our actual world. The real soul is in film. Leica are just arrogant marketers, nothing more, aiming ppl who drive Hybrid cars and smoke up their a**.

Those are my first MF shoots ever.

I don't think Leica are JUST arrogant marketers.  They do make fine if somewhat over priced cameras and really great lenses.  I've only handled an S2 a few times, so I can only say it felt and looked nice, and the files I shot had that nice CCD look. 

And film, what is there to say?  In so many ways it is king, except for convenience, and the lack of affodable scanners. 

Your DP2m files are pretty nice.  real nice.  Not Portra 160 on a 501cm nice, but really organic if sometimes TOO sharp.  I can't wait to get mine.
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hcubell
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« Reply #9 on: September 28, 2012, 01:51:48 PM »
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Why are we all trapped in this endless debate....

There are apples, and there are oranges - and we are free to buy and use whatever is needed....
Who cares! One is a fruit, another is a citrus, they both are tasty... If allergic - avoid, if not - enjoy.

In photography the content matters at least 95%, the rest is technicalities...
We should be mature enough to realize it and not be manipulated by marketing strategies...

P.S. not targeting this post, but rather the subject matter

Sadly, the answer is very clear. Arguing about camera systems is a highly sublimated form of tribal warfare. It's also way easier than making a compelling photograph.
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FredBGG
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« Reply #10 on: September 28, 2012, 02:36:29 PM »
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This type of arrogance is similar to the same arrogance from the other main MF manufacturers... (with the exception of Pentax)
It is part of the snobbery that is part of selling the ultra high end that costs ten times more the the
other high end options and have almost indistinguishable quality differences.

So Leica has 20% of the MF market... a there are no numbers, just other fuzzy claims such as "best year ever".

While reps of MF companies are on these forums all the time, none offer up sales numbers.

Going back to Leica .... it's rather funny how they are so aloof about MF yet the only offering they have is a "crop sensor".
A little detail they forgot to mention on their website:

http://www.s.leica-camera.com/en/System/THE-NEW-LEICA-S#feature_9

30x45mm sensor. Smallert sensor in MF.

That is only 3mm on top and bottom and 4.5mm more on each side.

That said Leica has advantages in having a luxury Super DSLR (More appropriate definition than MF).
Even if sales are low and it does not become a dominant too for pros it will still add prestige to the brand..
a prestige that is already high.

Both Hasselblad and Phase One have nothing else to sell to a broader market so they are fully dependent on
their MF sales. (well maybe Capture One for Phase). We all know that MF sales are in decline. They have been for a long time. They may have leveled
out, but that is not promising in this day and age. Tough future for MF only manufacturers.

No significant new MF sensor performance in a long time is a bad sign. Just very very expensive MP count increase more than a year ago from only one vendor.
60 went to 80MP.

Nikon in one category went from 12 to 36MP with a large increase in dynamic range and for only a small price increase.

I also think that a very significant announcement was that of Zeiss announcing it's new series of for Nikon mount.
It will be interesting to see where this goes.



« Last Edit: September 28, 2012, 02:48:28 PM by FredBGG » Logged
Marlyn
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« Reply #11 on: September 28, 2012, 02:41:07 PM »
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To me, MF Digital is all about the camera, shooting experience and tools, which also product the highest quality result.

For the viewer of the print, the results are all that matters.
For the photographer, the process and tools can be equally as important.  


It is as simple as this. (for me)

Can I shoot with a Technical camera on a Canon or a Nikon.  Answer. No (or not without a great deal of hassle. There are some solutions).
Can I do it on MF Digital,  Yes, and in an easy and failry compact manner with stunning glass.  (Cambo, Arca etc).

I like, and use,  +/- 20mm of shifts,  precision tilting,  etc etc.   I was(and am) a long term user of Canon TS-E lenses, for what I want, the Technical camera is far better for it.

When I want to shoot landscapes, off the tripod etc I pullout the Cambo WRS-AE.
When I want to eagles, wildelife etc.  I use an SLR.

For example,  do I want to sit in front of a computer and focus blend 10 images, or do I just want to do a single shot with tilts.  Assuming that is even possible with water or other movments.

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JV
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« Reply #12 on: September 28, 2012, 02:59:56 PM »
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Both Hasselblad and Phase One have nothing else to sell to a broader market so they are fully dependent on
their MF sales. (well maybe Capture One for Phase). We all know that MF sales are in decline. They have been for a long time. They may have leveled
out, but that is not promising in this day and age. Tough future for MF only manufacturers.

Fred,

You either go to church every day and celebrate with others in a positive and constructive way.

Or you stay away altogether.

But you don't go to church every day to monotonously repeat multiple times per day that church attendance is in decline.

Just my 2 cents.  You obviously have an agenda.  Please put it on the table.

Thanks, Joris.
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MichaelEzra
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« Reply #13 on: September 28, 2012, 03:16:34 PM »
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Why won't we declare 35mm full frame as a medium format!:)
After all, what is the definition of "medium" in the digital era?! - not too small and smaller than large?
Is MFD a large digital format then Roll Eyes! is there really anything much larger?

P.S. just having fun...
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yaya
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« Reply #14 on: September 28, 2012, 03:30:42 PM »
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...church attendance is in decline.

Is it???
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Chairman Bill
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« Reply #15 on: September 28, 2012, 03:54:53 PM »
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Is it???

It is in rational communities  Wink

Here in Europe, religion is in desperate decline. Parts of the UK have church attendance at 1 - 2%. Those areas with large elderly populations might hit the high teens, but there it's also declining. Much of Europe is just the same.
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EricWHiss
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« Reply #16 on: September 28, 2012, 04:34:22 PM »
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Fred,
Would you mind sourcing your information on MF sales that you seem so sure of?   Don't forget to include the Pentax and Leica offerings in your figures for total MFDB sales.   I'd be surprised if all forms of digital camera sales, compact, DSLR, MFDB were not increasing.   The only thing that seems to be in decline, and I'm sad about it personally because I still use it, is film. 

Eric
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ondebanks
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« Reply #17 on: September 28, 2012, 08:11:06 PM »
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It is in rational communities  Wink

Amen to that! (He said, ironically...)

Yeah, massive slide in religious observation here in what used be called "Holy Catholic Ireland" too, accelerating over the past 25 years.

The Pope visited for the first time ever in 1979 and the place went crazy with devotion. As soon as he got back on the plane to Rome, it all went downhill from there for the Church...and the country's become a much better place as a result.

Ray
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Anders_HK
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« Reply #18 on: September 28, 2012, 10:07:34 PM »
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To me, MF Digital is all about the camera, shooting experience and tools, which also product the highest quality result.

For the viewer of the print, the results are all that matters.
For the photographer, the process and tools can be equally as important.  

+1

Absolute correct. Thus some viewers may prefer a print from a D800 or D50, but MFD lends the photographer an advanced specialized tool for a more qulitative image. Regardless, with the "right" tool it lends to seeing better and to capture better images.
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EricWHiss
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« Reply #19 on: September 28, 2012, 11:02:18 PM »
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It is in rational communities  Wink

Here in Europe, religion is in desperate decline. Parts of the UK have church attendance at 1 - 2%. Those areas with large elderly populations might hit the high teens, but there it's also declining. Much of Europe is just the same.

It took me a long time to realize that "separation of church and state" in America really meant the opposite of what I had grown up thinking. 
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