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Author Topic: People who ask about the D800 have never experienced medium format  (Read 38435 times)
ErikKaffehr
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« Reply #100 on: October 04, 2012, 01:01:37 AM »
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Hi,

Yes you definitively have a point. Leaf shutters have advantages and good viewfinder are nicer than bad ones. I guess that one of the reasons that Nikon D has not as good viewfinder as the old F4 may be that they want to display more information in the viewfinder, I guess that there may be an LCD panel over the screen. That technology was used in the Minolta Dynax 9Xi, i liked that camera.

On the other hand, not all MF is alike. The Pentax 67 I have has one of the worst viewfinders I have seen and I was never impressed by the older viewfinders on Hasselblad V. Hasselblad later introduced better viewfinder and a microacute screen made by Minolta, that may have been better. But I have mostly seen old stuff.

Good tools are a pleasure to work with.

Best regards
Erik




Not me!   I'm saying I prefer the big bright viewfinder of my Rollei AFi, the higher flash sync speed, the leaf shutter lenses which allow me to shoot hand held at lower shutter speeds and well a whole lot of other things.   I've tested the d800 side by side and the MF glass produces a different look and the digital backs have superior color.  I prefer the MF crop over the 3::2 ratio of DSLR's as well.   I just find composing much more fluid with the better finders.    Lenses - the way I look at is this - since you can find great lenses for either platform in a way the lenses don't matter, what's left is the usability. Usability depends a lot on the individual and what they are shooting.   btw - I have a nikon F4 camera that I would prefer to the DSLR's they make today because of the viewfinder and viewfinder options.  It's too bad Nikon didn't bring some of that back.
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Anders_HK
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« Reply #101 on: October 04, 2012, 04:07:52 AM »
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Good tools are a pleasure to work with.

+888

And it is not mere the lens or viewfinder, it is all aspect of the chain towards the image. And in end it is the image itself.  Grin
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BernardLanguillier
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« Reply #102 on: October 04, 2012, 04:34:08 AM »
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Good tools are a pleasure to work with.

Yes, but there is not guarantee that a "good tool" is the best option to reach a certain goal in imaging, among which the best possible image quality.

Either enjoy shooting as an activity or enjoy creating images as an output.

Sometimes both overlap or match, but that is not mandatory nor is it guaranteed. Some photographers feel like they cannot take good images if the camera is not comfortable to their hand, while others could shoot with a boiling iron leaking sulfuric acid if it were to help get 5% additional sharpness.

For example, I find focusing in a camera viewfinder a more pleasing experience than focusing using live view, but the latter is the winning proposition when detail matters. So I use live view when I need to be 100% sure to get sharp images.

The same is true with outdoor gear. Some like the ultra light gear that will enable them to save 10% in energy, even if their back is very uncomfortable, while others cannot even imaging walking 1 km with a pack that is not super comfortable. Horse for courses.

Cheers,
Bernard
« Last Edit: October 04, 2012, 06:49:33 AM by BernardLanguillier » Logged

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EricWHiss
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« Reply #103 on: October 04, 2012, 09:59:11 AM »
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Yes, if you shoot a lot of different things, its likely one camera won't be enough.  I'll bet most people that have MFDB systems also have a DSLR or other small camera.
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ErikKaffehr
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« Reply #104 on: October 04, 2012, 12:09:39 PM »
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Hi,

A good tool is one that is appropriate for the job. Sometimes you need a hammer and sometimes a screwdriver. An excellent hammer is of little help when you need a 3.5 mm hex key to remove your Arca QR.

When I have the camera on tripod I more often than not use the LCD. So in that case a good LCD may be more important than a good viewfinder. If I shoot at ground level, I really want an articulated LCD.

On the other hand, when aiming a long telephoto, I really need a viewfinder.  Having an electronic level in the viewfinder is sometimes better than three bubbles in the hot shoe.

Live view is the way to focus anything that doesn't move. If the subject moves, I don't know. In my view peaking is not good enough for stills.

In a single day I used everything between 12mm on full frame and 800 mm on APS-C., and pretty much everything in between, shooting in the Grand Teton NP. The 800 came handy for shooting and filming an Osprey in it's nest and the 12 mm was nice to emphasize sagebush against the Tetons.

Best regards
Erik

Yes, but there is not guarantee that a "good tool" is the best option to reach a certain goal in imaging, among which the best possible image quality.

Either enjoy shooting as an activity or enjoy creating images as an output.

Sometimes both overlap or match, but that is not mandatory nor is it guaranteed. Some photographers feel like they cannot take good images if the camera is not comfortable to their hand, while others could shoot with a boiling iron leaking sulfuric acid if it were to help get 5% additional sharpness.

For example, I find focusing in a camera viewfinder a more pleasing experience than focusing using live view, but the latter is the winning proposition when detail matters. So I use live view when I need to be 100% sure to get sharp images.

The same is true with outdoor gear. Some like the ultra light gear that will enable them to save 10% in energy, even if their back is very uncomfortable, while others cannot even imaging walking 1 km with a pack that is not super comfortable. Horse for courses.

Cheers,
Bernard

« Last Edit: October 07, 2012, 01:32:03 AM by ErikKaffehr » Logged

marcmccalmont
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« Reply #105 on: October 04, 2012, 12:37:12 PM »
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The best tool is the one between your ears!
Marc
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Marc McCalmont
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« Reply #106 on: October 04, 2012, 05:21:04 PM »
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Hi,

A good tool is one that is appropriate for the job. Sometimes you need a hammer and sometimes a screwdriver. An excellent hammer is of little help when you need a 3.5 mm hex key to remove your Arca QR.

Exactly, which means that not all good tools are a pleasure to work with.

Cheers,
Bernard
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ErikKaffehr
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« Reply #107 on: October 04, 2012, 07:16:51 PM »
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Hi Bernard,

Just a small example.

I used a Gitzo GT3541LS but now upgraded to a much nicer RRS Versa 3S. Earlier I used  ball heads, but I had a few problems with those. I try to compose exactly, and a ballhead does not lock exactly, also there is always a mechanical flex in the camera itself. So it is hard to ompose exactly with a long lens. You lock the head and there will be a significant shift when you take your hand from the camera.

In addition, my main lens is a 24-70/2.8 lens. And the camera I have is also quite heavy. So after a couple days of shooting I had pain in my hands.

A year ago I invested in an Arca D4 head that I am quite happy with. But I replaced the quick release with an RRS one, as I felt that the original one was to flimsy. Finally I added a balancing bowl from RRS. That combo works as I want a tripod to work. it's functional and a pleasure to work with. Total investment is close to a D600 in cost.

Cheers,
Erik
Exactly, which means that not all good tools are a pleasure to work with.

Cheers,
Bernard

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ErikKaffehr
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« Reply #108 on: October 04, 2012, 07:18:34 PM »
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Hi Marc,

Hopefully so.

Erik
The best tool is the one between your ears!
Marc
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rainer_v
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« Reply #109 on: October 06, 2012, 10:42:35 PM »
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i think the d800e with the right lenses simply is amazing.
i work since 2005 with mf backs 22/33/56 mp from sinar and leaf with the best rodenstock, sinar/zeiss and contax/zeiss lenses available, so i think i have seen much in respect of "best" mf image quality.
the dynamic range and color reproduction of my new d800e together with good lenses
(i just have a few ones for the nikon,  the 24PC ( i wrote before 28PC - thats wrong  ), the voigtländer 20+40mm, the nikon 1,8/85 and a nikon 80-400mm ) is simply stunning.
still i prefer for my usual architecture the artek with the leaf aptus10 back, but its more for the convenience to work and for the wider setup of lenses and for the higher resolution of ustitched images, than for a miss or lack of the pure image quality on side of the nikon.
at contrary: i just had to shoot a very difficult opera house in bayreuth, which just became to the world heritage list. very, very difficult to shoot, light only from many bulb lamps at the walls, together with thousands of  baroque details and colors.
the linos wide angles ( esp. the 23 +28) have its difficulties with flare and light which lits direct in the lens and the dynamic range of the scenes was extremely huge ...
so contrary to all other posters here i took the nikon esp. for the difficulty of the job, where everybody here seems to do the opposite, means to use the nikon for "easier" jobs.
i took the nikon, using mostly the 24PC  and stitching the max. image circle together to reach enough wide angle. the result became very good, the dynamic range at base iso is simply spectacular and the color reproduction for these kind of stuff very good and natural.
btw. the d800e is not a camera anymore for handheld shooting. to get it really 100% sharp needs quite fast times - or a tripod.  but at all ... this camera is an amazing step. i really wait the 17TS, which i hope they will bring out in 2013.

in the meantime i go on for architecture with my artek/leaf combo and the canon 5dsmk2 for long lens and sometimes even handheld stuff ( and as backup system ), the nikon is too picky for this
and there are not enough wa shift lenses ( esp. the miss of a 17 ) to replace the canon system as backup system.
« Last Edit: October 07, 2012, 06:21:06 AM by rainer_v » Logged

rainer viertlböck
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« Reply #110 on: October 07, 2012, 01:00:15 AM »
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Hello Rainer,

By putting your name to the Nikon D800E you have made it respectable.

IMO

Regards

Simon
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Simon Harper
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BernardLanguillier
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« Reply #111 on: October 07, 2012, 02:29:39 AM »
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Hello Rainer,

By putting your name to the Nikon D800E you have made it respectable.

On behalf of all the non respectable D800 users who have been praising this camera since we started using it, thank you! Smiley

Inertia is a scary thing when you realize that the D3x had many of the qualities of the D800... almost 4 years ago.

Cheers,
Bernard
« Last Edit: October 07, 2012, 04:35:26 AM by BernardLanguillier » Logged

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heinrichvoelkel
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« Reply #112 on: October 07, 2012, 03:23:57 AM »
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i think the d800e with the right lenses simply is amazing.
...
the 28PC ,
...
and there are not enough wa shift lenses ( esp. the miss of a 17 ) to replace the canon system as backup system.


rainer, did you try and tested the Nikon 24 PC? curious
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FredBGG
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« Reply #113 on: October 07, 2012, 03:47:53 AM »
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The best tool is the one between your ears!
Marc
Yup.. it's the one you use to choose the right camera too  Wink
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FredBGG
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« Reply #114 on: October 07, 2012, 04:17:21 AM »
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i think the d800e with the right lenses simply is amazing.
i work since 2005 with mf backs 22/33/56 mp from sinar and leaf with the best rodenstock, sinar/zeiss and contax/zeiss lenses available, so i think i have seen much in respect of "best" mf image quality.
the dynamic range and color reproduction of my new d800e together with good lenses
(i just have a few ones for the nikon,  the 28PC , the voigtländer 20+40mm, the nikon 1,8/85 and a nikon 80-400mm ) is simply stunning.
still i prefer for my usual architecture the artek with the leaf aptus10 back, but its more for the convenience to work and for the wider setup of lenses and for the higher resolution of ustitched images, than for a miss or lack of the pure image quality on side of the nikon.
at contrary: i just had to shoot a very difficult opera house in bayreuth, which just became to the world heritage list. very, very difficult to shoot, light only from many bulb lamps at the walls, together with thousands of  baroque details and colors.
the linos wide angles ( esp. the 23 +28) have its difficulties with flare and light which lits direct in the lens and the dynamic range of the scenes was extremely huge ...
so contrary to all other posters here i took the nikon esp. for the difficulty of the job, where everybody here seems to do the opposite, means to use the nikon for "easier" jobs.
i took the nikon, using mostly the 28PC  and stitching the max. image circle together to reach enough wide angle. the result became very good, the dynamic range at base iso is simply spectacular and the color reproduction for these kind of stuff very good and natural.
btw. the d800e is not a camera anymore for handheld shooting. to get it really 100% sharp needs quite fast times - or a tripod.  but at all ... this camera is an amazing step. i really wait the 17TS, which i hope they will bring out in 2013.

in the meantime i go on for architecture with my artek/leaf combo and the canon 5dsmk2 for long lens and sometimes even handheld stuff ( and as backup system ), the nikon is too picky for this
and there are not enough wa shift lenses ( esp. the miss of a 17 ) to replace the canon system as backup system.


It's good to hear from a fine colleague like you that you see what I see in the D800 and D800E. It also confirms what was clearly seen in
some of the lab tests. Some people here like to put down the DXO labs tests and other lab tests.

Your architectural work is very clean and precise... in a sense "precision laboratory work" in beautifully designed "labs"
and with the eye of a fine designer.

Quote
... this camera is an amazing step.

Exactly what I thought when I saw the first files a friend sent me. Nuns dressed some in black and some in white in front of the Fontana Di Trevi
at hi noon on a crisp sunny day.

When I first put the together the 85mm 1.4 and the D800 I could not help chuckling about how much could come out of such a small little package.
« Last Edit: October 07, 2012, 02:11:34 PM by FredBGG » Logged
FredBGG
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« Reply #115 on: October 07, 2012, 04:22:53 AM »
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i really wait the 17TS, which i hope they will bring out in 2013.

It will be very interesting to see the new "XXL" lenses for 35mm DSLRs from Zeiss and what they will do with their wide angle offerings in this new new lens series.
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rainer_v
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« Reply #116 on: October 07, 2012, 06:31:01 AM »
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rainer, did you try and tested the Nikon 24 PC? curious

yes , this is the lens i was working. optically very good, nearly as good than the canon counterpart, but not reaching it complete.
at f8-11 very sharp till the corners even when fully shifted.
if shifted in 45 degree angle to its limit it vignettes a bit the corner, the eff. image circle is about , i would say 55 - 60mm.
a tiny bit of CA, but really tiny.
good distortion, a bit worse than the  canon 24tse II.
mechanically somehow crappy,- i had the older version and it was from the calumet rental and  was already very used.
the new 24PC i bought afterwards is better damped if the shift is locked.
but overall its a very good lens which is sharp enough to resolve the 800e to its limit.

i hardly doubt that any unsymmetric mf wide angle lens will do better, with or without red dot.
at least my sinar/zeiss M 40mm and my contax 35mm lenses are not better
( although not worse- both might perform similar in terms of sharpness and CA than the 24PC ).
i dont know about and even i dont know if there is a leica S counterpart.
mamya 645 35mm and pentax 645 35mm lenses are less good.
and all of these lenses above are not shiftable.
the rodenstocks 28 & 35 HR are somehow sharper and have  less/none CA.
distortion might be similar, but sensitive to flare they render with backlight  much worse, at least the 28HR.

btw.:
about new zeiss WA i have not so high expectations,  i will see if they will change my mind.
i tested all 35mm zeiss wa glass and i think the only good one in their line up is the fat 21mm, which shows at the same time a lot of moustache. best fixed focal wide i could find is the voigtländer 3,5/20, but i had to try several samples till i had a real sharp one. as well as the vl 40mm ( but longer than 35mm lenses are many good ones ). both resolve with the nikon very crispy, if stopped down to f8.
« Last Edit: October 07, 2012, 07:01:13 AM by rainer_v » Logged

rainer viertlböck
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ErikKaffehr
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« Reply #117 on: October 07, 2012, 09:01:05 AM »
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Hi,

Thanks for sharing.

Best regards
Erik

yes , this is the lens i was working. optically very good, nearly as good than the canon counterpart, but not reaching it complete.
at f8-11 very sharp till the corners even when fully shifted.
if shifted in 45 degree angle to its limit it vignettes a bit the corner, the eff. image circle is about , i would say 55 - 60mm.
a tiny bit of CA, but really tiny.
good distortion, a bit worse than the  canon 24tse II.
mechanically somehow crappy,- i had the older version and it was from the calumet rental and  was already very used.
the new 24PC i bought afterwards is better damped if the shift is locked.
but overall its a very good lens which is sharp enough to resolve the 800e to its limit.

i hardly doubt that any unsymmetric mf wide angle lens will do better, with or without red dot.
at least my sinar/zeiss M 40mm and my contax 35mm lenses are not better
( although not worse- both might perform similar in terms of sharpness and CA than the 24PC ).
i dont know about and even i dont know if there is a leica S counterpart.
mamya 645 35mm and pentax 645 35mm lenses are less good.
and all of these lenses above are not shiftable.
the rodenstocks 28 & 35 HR are somehow sharper and have  less/none CA.
distortion might be similar, but sensitive to flare they render with backlight  much worse, at least the 28HR.

btw.:
about new zeiss WA i have not so high expectations,  i will see if they will change my mind.
i tested all 35mm zeiss wa glass and i think the only good one in their line up is the fat 21mm, which shows at the same time a lot of moustache. best fixed focal wide i could find is the voigtländer 3,5/20, but i had to try several samples till i had a real sharp one. as well as the vl 40mm ( but longer than 35mm lenses are many good ones ). both resolve with the nikon very crispy, if stopped down to f8.

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heinrichvoelkel
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« Reply #118 on: October 07, 2012, 02:00:11 PM »
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yes, thank you Rainer for the info. because of the 28mm, I was thinking you're using the Schneider 28mm PC lens, but good to know, someone is happy with his Nikon PC lens. Another question, did you try the 14-24mm Nikon zoom?

Regards
Heinrich
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FredBGG
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« Reply #119 on: October 07, 2012, 02:19:09 PM »
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yes, thank you Rainer for the info. because of the 28mm, I was thinking you're using the Schneider 28mm PC lens, but good to know, someone is happy with his Nikon PC lens. Another question, did you try the 14-24mm Nikon zoom?

Regards
Heinrich

Distortion is quite pronounced at shorter focal lengths, but well corrected at 24.
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