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Author Topic: Is there an amateur market, and if so is it important?  (Read 6840 times)
Brent Daniels
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« Reply #40 on: October 02, 2012, 09:23:16 PM »
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I have a good friend that is a major sales rep for MFDB cameras. Now with 2 of the major companies. The major customer demographic of these MFDB products is now clearly the same as Leica. High end disposable income business professionals. How many high end disposable income professional photographers do you know? However I can personally count at least 25 business professionals who have 1 mil plus sailboats at the local dock. So 5o K digital cameras ..........  ?  The true working pros are almost the marketing oil in the machine of selling these items.
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JeffKohn
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« Reply #41 on: October 02, 2012, 10:10:47 PM »
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so what I'm hoping for is a full frame (actually I would prefer a 4x5 aspect sensor of similar area as 24x36 or at least 3x4) mirrorless (nex 9?) and a high precision shift adapter for mf lenses. I would probably even be happy with a high quality 35mm with movements. for longer lenses and tilt movements just use something like the novoflex tilt shift bellows and you have your viewcamera (maybe with a mirrorless camera the novoflex could be used even for infinity shooting with medium format lenses.

now for the mirrorless camera a nex 9 with the 36mp d800 sensor would be cool. or to save cost just make a camera without user interface (no lcd, no viewfinder, no buttons) plus an android and iOs app Smiley kickstarter anyone?

what do you think? I guess many would still like the larger sensor for dof reasons, but for landscape I don't think that would be an issue (rather an advantage) right?
I'm not sure the mirrorless camera + T/S adapter for MF lenses makes the most sense. I don't see how this would be an improvement over the D800 + PC-E lenses. The number of available MF lenses that can be adapted to T/S and also hold up to the resolution demands of the D800 sensor is fairly small I think (since you're limited to older manual lenses with no electronic coupling).

Rather than using a shift adapter for MF lenses, the mirrorless cameras might be a good match for DSLR-compatible view cameras such as the Arca-Swiss M-Line 2, Horsemen VCC Pro, etc. The biggest problem with those view cameras currently is that the mirror box on the DSLR limits the lenses you can use to 72mm and longer. But a mirrorless camera would greatly reduce this problem (though probably not solve it for the widest lenses).
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BernieKohl
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« Reply #42 on: October 03, 2012, 07:21:40 AM »
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It seems to me the whole point here is that Hasselblad, Mamiya etc. have lost most of their film-day share of the enthusiast market. Could there be a back even cheaper than the 22 MP from Leaf? I guess so and would love to see the Raspberry Pi of MFDB come true.

    No screen
    Simple, machined aluminium/plastic body
    HDMI out
    USB out
    LAN in/out
    Two mechanical dials (WB, ISO)
    Standard video batteries
    CF card slot (only DNG 16 bit RAW)
    Android SoC (flash PROM)
    24x36 mm sensor EUR/USD 2,500?
    36x48 mm sensor EUR/USD 4,000?

Will we see it? Well, if we start our own company...
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Doug Peterson
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« Reply #43 on: October 03, 2012, 08:51:41 AM »
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It seems to me the whole point here is that Hasselblad, Mamiya etc. have lost most of their film-day share of the enthusiast market. Could there be a back even cheaper than the 22 MP from Leaf? I guess so and would love to see the Raspberry Pi of MFDB come true.

    No screen
    Simple, machined aluminium/plastic body
    HDMI out
    USB out
    LAN in/out
    Two mechanical dials (WB, ISO)
    Standard video batteries
    CF card slot (only DNG 16 bit RAW)
    Android SoC (flash PROM)
    24x36 mm sensor EUR/USD 2,500?
    36x48 mm sensor EUR/USD 4,000?

Will we see it? Well, if we start our own company...

The feature set you point to can not happen at the price point you ask for namely since (useful) HDMI would require a CMOS sensor and no such high quality CMOS 36x48mm sensor is available. The rest of the list strikes me as at least feasible.

But the other issue is you'd be competing heavily against very well respected and very durable pre-owned backs. We have a pre-owned Phase One P25 for 4.5k in inventory. The P25 is 22mp, 36x48, compatible (and proven reliable) with a huge number of cameras, runs of video batteries, has a CF card slot, has a very simple and reliable OS, so from your list all that's missing is HDMI which as I say above is really not realistic and USB/LAN (but it can be used with FW or Thunderbolt) and notably the P25 includes an LCD. That's a very easy sell for $500 more than your theoretical camera (assuming it could be made and sold at that price).
« Last Edit: October 03, 2012, 08:54:16 AM by Doug Peterson » Logged

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yaya
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« Reply #44 on: October 03, 2012, 09:06:49 AM »
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It seems to me the whole point here is that Hasselblad, Mamiya etc. have lost most of their film-day share of the enthusiast market. Could there be a back even cheaper than the 22 MP from Leaf? I guess so and would love to see the Raspberry Pi of MFDB come true.

    No screen
    Simple, machined aluminium/plastic body
    HDMI out
    USB out
    LAN in/out
    Two mechanical dials (WB, ISO)
    Standard video batteries
    CF card slot (only DNG 16 bit RAW)
    Android SoC (flash PROM)
    24x36 mm sensor EUR/USD 2,500?
    36x48 mm sensor EUR/USD 4,000?

Will we see it? Well, if we start our own company...

http://www.kickstarter.com

Personally I don't think it is a viable product from a manufacturer standpoint and also from a market point of view.

Yair
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e: ysh@mamiyaleaf.com | m: +44(0)77 8992 8199 | www.mamiyaleaf.com | yaya's blog
BernieKohl
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« Reply #45 on: October 03, 2012, 09:36:57 AM »
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I have to agree that it is unlikely to come up with a cheaper product than a pre-owned 22 MP back from Leaf. A product like that would have to be much cheaper, but that's impossible, is it not? But when I think back, 20 years ago I knew quite a few enthusiasts with Bronica or Mamiya systems. Now they all use the Japanese DSLR button monsters. Frankly I don't quite understand what happend.

I mean how much would a pre-owned system set you back? 4k for the Leaf, 2k for the camera body plus an 80mm lens?
A D800 with a good lens is not much cheaper.
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torger
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« Reply #46 on: October 03, 2012, 09:53:30 AM »
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If the back is experienced as not being fully competitive with the than the high-end DSLR, like the current 22 mpix, then it won't work I think. I keep returning to ~50 megapixel 48x36mm. Something is balanced with a $10K-$15K tech cam system, and a price that matches that.

Swap out the 22 megapixel sensor on the current Aptus-II 5 for the off-the-shelf 48 megapixel Dalsa FTF-6080C and sell it for the same price, there you have the product. I think this can be done, but can be hard to fit into the current line of products. Maybe if crippling it so it is not really "professional" any longer, removing the tethering support for example, which professionals seems to be using all the time but I don't think it is so hot among amateurs.

You can also differentiate the product by not providing the pro-level support packages for that back, i e replacement backs and that kind of things. I think there would be ways to differentiate the product so it does not become the choice of the professional customers, but still is attractive to amateurs.

Making a dead-cheap back to be combined with old analog cameras I think is a harder stunt to pull off. If you are the type of customer that buys second hand discontinued cameras, it's likely that you will buy a second hand discontinued back too, such as a nice 22 megapixel back which are quite easy to come by these days. There's also the problem that for these cameras many many really would like a full-frame 6x6 or 6x7 sensor.

But making one that combines well with a Schneider Digitar based tech camera system and provides better-than-DSLR resolution to a reasonable price I think would be possible, without destroying the current pricing policy for the professional market. This would mainly be targeted to the advanced landscape photography amateur.
« Last Edit: October 03, 2012, 10:03:54 AM by torger » Logged
gerald.d
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« Reply #47 on: October 03, 2012, 01:32:08 PM »
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But the other issue is you'd be competing heavily against very well respected and very durable pre-owned backs. We have a pre-owned Phase One P25 for 4.5k in inventory. The P25 is 22mp, 36x48, compatible (and proven reliable) with a huge number of cameras, runs of video batteries, has a CF card slot, has a very simple and reliable OS, so from your list all that's missing is HDMI which as I say above is really not realistic and USB/LAN (but it can be used with FW or Thunderbolt) and notably the P25 includes an LCD. That's a very easy sell for $500 more than your theoretical camera (assuming it could be made and sold at that price).

Ok. I'll bite, because I'm sure you were expecting someone to.

If it's such an easy sell, why is it still in inventory, and why the need to pimp it in this thread?

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Clyde RF
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« Reply #48 on: October 04, 2012, 04:30:41 AM »
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Since a tech camera like the Arca RM3DI has a wide enough lens opening to accommodate a lens as long as the Schneider 210 digitar, (with non-bellows solid adapter), it would especially be an advantage to be able to utilize the added precision, versatility, and compactness of this type of system, in combination with a smaller 24/36 type of db, for those few into landscape like myself who would prefer to be able make full use of the extended range provided by longer lenses. In this scenario, a smaller sensor with 36+ mp would actually be preferable, even though some advantages of the larger sensors with bigger pixels would be lost.The extremely high performance Rodenstock Digeron-s lenses, while having relatively small image circles, would be an additional plus, bringing forth the best out of the smaller sensor.

I would be very happy have an IQ 140, which would still provide pretty good reach and sufficient movements with the digeron-s's, but like some others posting on this thread, I am reluctant to make that investment at this time. As Hank Williams Sr once sang, I'm "Just Waitin." 

     
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