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Author Topic: Klarifine Inks  (Read 2457 times)
Remo Nonaz
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« on: October 02, 2012, 08:23:27 PM »
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Can anyone in the forum comment on Klarifine dye inks from www.fotospeed.com? I have been told this ink is 85-year archival rated, which is good enough for me. The ink sells for about the same price as Cone pigment ink, which makes it more expensive than cheapo ink but still 1/8 the cost of Epson 79 series Claria ink.
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Ernst Dinkla
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« Reply #1 on: October 03, 2012, 02:31:59 AM »
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Statements like 85-year archival should be written down instead of being told before giving them any trust. Archival is a vague term anyway. Most see it as the longevity of a print kept in an album and not often exposed to light and fresh air. Who tested it and where is the next question.

The pages of the link you gave say 85 years for the pigment ink they sell, maybe a firm representative was overenthusiastic on the products they sell or there was a misunderstanding between both sides. Remains the question who tested the inks. Dye inks that show better longevity usually require print media that is designed for that ink and the choice is then limited. The best around, Epson's Claria and HP Vivera DYE have been tested by www.Aardenburg-Imaging.com and it is unlikely that any third party dye ink goes beyond the longevity numbers found there. Bulk content of Claria is most likely available in Noritsu dry minilab cartridges at a lower price per ML than normal Claria cartridges.


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Remo Nonaz
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« Reply #2 on: October 03, 2012, 08:14:29 AM »
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Ernst:

Thank you for your response. Yes, I looked at Aardenburg, but they didn't have anything for the Klarifine ink. I did note that the MIS ink I'm presently using shows significant fading and color changing even as low as 40ML years, which is why I'm looking to make a change. I am seeing visible fading in two-year-old prints that are under glass and in a dim room.

I prefer refilling my cartridges over continuing to put in $22 Epson cartidges for both cost and convenience. Also, I do black and white printing using the Eboni UT-14 system. Every time you open the cartridge drawer on the printer to change inks, it goes though a head cleaning cycle and wastes a lot of ink, so I keep my use of genuine Claria inks to a minimum.

I'll take a look at Noritsu and see if that is a reasonable alternative. 
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I really enjoy using old primes on my m4/3 camera. There's something about having to choose your aperture and actually focusing your camera that makes it so much more like... like... PHOTOGRAPHY!
MHMG
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« Reply #3 on: October 03, 2012, 03:32:10 PM »
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Ernst:

Yes, I looked at Aardenburg, but they didn't have anything for the Klarifine ink. I did note that the MIS ink I'm presently using shows significant fading and color changing even as low as 40ML years, which is why I'm looking to make a change. I am seeing visible fading in two-year-old prints that are under glass and in a dim room.


It's important to distinguish third party dye from third party pigment. The MIS pigmented ink which is what was tested at AaI&A is not up to the lightfastness durability of the Epson OEM ink due to a poorly performing MIS (aka Image Specialists) yellow ink, and Epson's Ultrachrome yellow pigment isn't anything to brag about,either. That said, if you're seeing easily noticeable fading in just a few years under glass at low illumination levels, you're undoubtedly talking about an MIS dye-based ink that has not been tested. In fact, I have yet to test any good third party dye-based ink set although I'm not saying it doesn't exist. It's just that I mainly depend on AaI&A members to submit "novel" printer/ink/media combinations for testing, and interest has waned amongst the membership in third party inks in recent years. Anyway, if you do end up trying a third party ink that Aardenburg has not tested, you're more than welcome to request a test. As funds become available, I gladly test any commercially available ink/media combinations for AaI&A members. It doesn't matter if they are OEM or third party products. It only matters that folks can easily purchase them and duplicate the printer/ink/media conditions that went into testing.

As Ernst noted, an 85 year claim by Fotospeed is likely to have been a claim only for their pigmented inks, not their dye-based sets, but I found it hard to navigate their site even to find mention of the 85 year archival claim. Also, as Ernst noted, "archival" is a vaguely defined and often abused term, so unless the product has been tested in a way that can truly evaluate the retention of print quality over the duration of the test and then relate that result in some way to a "years of life" expectancy where the print would retain X percentage of original quality, such claims are pretty much meaningless market speak. Prints don't dye like humans do. It's not a clearly defined on-off switch for end of life. There will be a continually declining quality as time goes on until no functional image is left, and most people would be unhappy with print quality long before no useful image information content exists. It's up to you to decide how much change in visual appearance and physical properties is unacceptable for your particular needs.

kind regards,
Mark
http://www.aardenburg-imaging.com

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Remo Nonaz
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« Reply #4 on: October 03, 2012, 04:15:19 PM »
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Mark:

Thank you for that clarification. I was not aware that the MIS/Epson 1800 combination tested was pigment ink. I use a 1400 but mistakenly thought they were using the same ink. I looked again on MIS' webpage and see that they are not the same.

I also noted your submission procedures and will submit a sample of what I am using shortly. The combination I am using, Epson 1400, MIS T079 die ink and Red River Arctic Polar Gloss paper, may not be of archival quality, but it very cost effective and likely popular among cost-conscious printers.
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I really enjoy using old primes on my m4/3 camera. There's something about having to choose your aperture and actually focusing your camera that makes it so much more like... like... PHOTOGRAPHY!
MHMG
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« Reply #5 on: October 03, 2012, 05:36:12 PM »
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... The combination I am using, Epson 1400, MIS T079 die ink and Red River Arctic Polar Gloss paper, may not be of archival quality, but it very cost effective and likely popular among cost-conscious printers.

Yes, exactly why third party inks have a place in the inkjet market.

On that note, take a look at ID# 33 in the Aardenburg database. The sample was printed on an Epson desktop printer designed for Claria dyes and Epson Premium Luster photo paper, but using a "cost-effective" third party dye-base ink probably not unlike the MIS T079.  This Signal dye-based ink set was also advertised by the vendor to "meet or exceed" all specifications for Epson OEM Claria ink.  With an AaI&A Conservation Display rating at 1.6-2.4 Megalux hours (compares to 10-15 megalux hours for the Claria OEM on same paper), it is a highly fugitive ink set that will produce a user experience much like you described, i.e., noticeable fading at low light levels in only a few years on display. While the Claria ink's 10-15 megalux hour rating is 10x more fade resistant that improves the early stage light fade resistance from 'fugitive" to "moderate" but not "high" fade resistance, it's important to understand that the AaI&A Conservation Display rating evaluates just the critical early stage of fade which is more important for fine art applications than for consumer photos. If you look at the test results as the tests proceed to higher exposure doses and much more easily noticeable fade levels with both samples, you will then realize that the Signal Ink continues to fade at rapid rate while the Claria set exhibits a non linear fade behavior such that it slows over time as exposure dose continues to accumulate.  Claria prints therefore retain more reasonable albeit not perfect image quality by an even greater than 10X margin over time if we are talking about consumer photo applications where higher levels of fade are often tolerated by the customer.

The Signal ink is by far the most fade prone ink I've ever tested, but I know there are many third party dye sets out that that perform no better. They make up the very lucrative printer cartridge refill market you find in stores like Office Depot, Staples, etc. Buyers of these cheap refill cartridges generally don't worry about lightfastness when printing on plain paper for short term value projects like student reports, business flyers, etc.  It will be interesting to see how the MIS T079 ink performs against this rather low bar for light fade resistance of most third party dye-based products.
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Kumar
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« Reply #6 on: October 03, 2012, 11:16:56 PM »
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Prints don't dye like humans do.
A classic Freudian slip!
Humans are pigmented and all of them die, but some also dye  Cheesy

Kumar
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MHMG
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« Reply #7 on: October 04, 2012, 08:31:07 AM »
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A classic Freudian slip!
Humans are pigmented and all of them die, but some also dye  Cheesy

Kumar

Slip or intentional pun? I concede is was the former, but it's too classic a misspell for me now to go back and correct. I think I'll let it lye, er, lie Grin

Been doing this inkjet research way too long...

best,
Mark
« Last Edit: October 04, 2012, 08:49:29 AM by MHMG » Logged
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