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Author Topic: 80MP on Hasselblad H??  (Read 8505 times)
henrikfoto
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« on: October 04, 2012, 08:16:34 AM »
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I want to leave the Phase DF and mostly want to go to Hy6.
The price I got to rebuild my Aptus 12 to Hy6 is more than 6.000$..... a lot more than expected.

An alternative is to change it to Hasselblad H. I have a H4X which is very good.
This conversion is a lot cheaper, but my only worry is that the optics for the H might be very good
on the 80 mp back. The resolution might be ok in the middle, but not in the edges?

Has any of you tested the H optics with a 80mp back?
Or maybe some of you have thoughts about this combination?

Henrik
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ErikKaffehr
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« Reply #1 on: October 04, 2012, 08:28:14 AM »
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Hi,

Lloyd Chambers tested two lenses, the 100/2.2 and some other wideangle. The wideangle was not a good sample. He considered both lenses unacceptable, on a 50MP back. I don't know if his test is relevant, but he used to be a serious tester.

Best regards
Erik

I want to leave the Phase DF and mostly want to go to Hy6.
The price I got to rebuild my Aptus 12 to Hy6 is more than 6.000$..... a lot more than expected.

An alternative is to change it to Hasselblad H. I have a H4X which is very good.
This conversion is a lot cheaper, but my only worry is that the optics for the H might be very good
on the 80 mp back. The resolution might be ok in the middle, but not in the edges?

Has any of you tested the H optics with a 80mp back?
Or maybe some of you have thoughts about this combination?

Henrik
« Last Edit: October 07, 2012, 09:44:36 PM by ErikKaffehr » Logged

Doug Peterson
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« Reply #2 on: October 04, 2012, 08:35:52 AM »
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Lloyd Chambers tested two lenses, the 120/2.2 and some other wideangle. The wideangle was not a good sample. He considered both lenses unacceptable, on a 50MP back. I don't know if his test is relevant, but he used to be a serious tester.

Henrik, your dealer can't provide you a unit to test with a variety of lenses? We've done this for several IQ/Credo 60 and 80 upgrades on the H platform. The results have been mixed and very much dependent on expectations and points of comparison. A fashion shooter with a 100/2.2 is unlikely to put anything in the corner and value the look of the image and sharpness in the inner-two-thirds of the frame over anything else. An architectural shooter using the 35 is often hyper critical of the outside corners. I've seen everything from complete satisfaction to mild disgust (I could easily say the same about the lenses from every SLR we work with so this is not a blast on Hassy at all).

My point is that you're likely to get a range of answers, all of which will be valid - for the person providing that answer. As usual the best answer is for you to use such a kit and see how it behaves for you and your needs with your subjects.

My personal answer from my own shooting is the 100 and 120 are great lenses even with an 80mp demand on them.
« Last Edit: October 04, 2012, 08:37:46 AM by Doug Peterson » Logged

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henrikfoto
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« Reply #3 on: October 04, 2012, 08:58:46 AM »
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Thank you, both!

There is no such conbination in Norway. All 80 mp backs here are sold for the Phase/Mamiya.
So I can't get to test it.

I am mostly shooting products and people, and am not so worried about the very outer part of the sircle.

Doug, would you say the inner 2/3 of the sircle is good enough to get the maximum out of the 80mp?

Henrik
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henrikfoto
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« Reply #4 on: October 04, 2012, 10:20:39 AM »
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And is the viwfinder of the H bright enough to focus correctly with MF V-lenses and a 80 mp back?
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design_freak
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« Reply #5 on: October 04, 2012, 11:20:46 AM »
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Henrik,
Viewfinder is very bright, but problem is : that it is very hard to focus (MF) with 80Mp back.
H system is very nice, but not perfect. Nice lens from HCD line ( 24, 28, 35-90 ) cover up to 50Mp ... So you will have crop when use such lens with 80mp back. If you need 50mm and 120mm try to get MKII version.

 
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henrikfoto
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« Reply #6 on: October 04, 2012, 11:26:41 AM »
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Ok. Thanks!
Will these mk2 lenses (50 and 120 mm) cover a bit more than the older version, or are they just sharper?

Henrik
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FredBGG
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« Reply #7 on: October 04, 2012, 12:51:40 PM »
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Hi,

Lloyd Chambers tested two lenses, the 120/2.2 and some other wideangle. The wideangle was not a good sample. He considered both lenses unacceptable, on a 50MP back. I don't know if his test is relevant, but he used to be a serious tester.

Best regards
Erik


No H lens that is a 120/2.2

The 120 is a 4 and covers the full film frame (so it covers all sensors)

Part from the newer "crop" lenses I would not worry about lens quality from Fujinons.

They do just fine with the 200MP back:

Zoom in on this

http://www.hasselbladusa.com/promotions/milo-profi-image-1.aspx
« Last Edit: October 04, 2012, 12:56:35 PM by FredBGG » Logged
FredBGG
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« Reply #8 on: October 04, 2012, 01:09:41 PM »
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Ok. Thanks!
Will these mk2 lenses (50 and 120 mm) cover a bit more than the older version, or are they just sharper?

Henrik

The 50mm is a "crop" lens. (edit) Not officially, but resolution and light falloff are very high in the area cropped on other cropped models.  It is also part of Hasselblads newer lens design strategy. Higher vignetting and distortion
and then rely on software to correct it.

What it interesting is that they publish the MTF graph that it prior to software distortion correction.
While the lens may show higher sharpness on the pre processed image, resolution always declines when pixels are pushed around
by software as does contrast and dynamic range (in the corners) when the software has to brighten up the corners.
« Last Edit: October 04, 2012, 03:57:31 PM by FredBGG » Logged
Dustbak
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« Reply #9 on: October 04, 2012, 01:17:06 PM »
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The new 50 is not a crop lens... stop spreading misinformation.

There are several lenses that have been made to cover the 49x37 area. These are; HCD28/4.0, HCD24, HCD35-90. Sofar these are the only ones. You can use them on the larger 60MP backs but this will lead to some lesser corners and mild vignetting. In some cases this is not really important in others you certainly do not want it. On the 60 you have about 55good MP's.

Yes, part of the design strategy is to allow some forms of imperfections that can be easily corrected with software in favor of a lens that can be produced and sold cheaper. Some people believe this to be bad others feel that as using all options as effective as possible. Take your pick...
« Last Edit: October 04, 2012, 01:23:54 PM by Dustbak » Logged
henrikfoto
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« Reply #10 on: October 04, 2012, 01:39:38 PM »
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But is the lens-correction in C1 as good as Hasselblads own corrections?
I use a Leaf back.

Henrik
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henrikfoto
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« Reply #11 on: October 04, 2012, 01:42:27 PM »
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Or maybe 80 mp on a Contax would be nice?

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design_freak
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« Reply #12 on: October 04, 2012, 02:00:08 PM »
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The 50mm is a "crop" lens. It is also part of Hasselblads newer lens design strategy. Higher vignetting and distortion
and then rely on software to correct it.

What it interesting is that they publish the MTF graph that it prior to software distortion correction.
While the lens may show higher sharpness on the pre processed image, resolution always declines when pixels are pushed around
by software as does contrast and dynamic range (in the corners) when the software has to brighten up the corners.

It is something new to me. For sure HC 50 MKII is not a crop lens !!
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Doug Peterson
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« Reply #13 on: October 04, 2012, 02:02:30 PM »
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But is the lens-correction in C1 as good as Hasselblads own corrections?
I use a Leaf back.

I can't speak for direct comparison but I find the lens correction in C1 to be excellent. In particular the sharpness falloff correction, chromatic aberration removal, and purple fringing removal I find to be consistently better than any other processor with the least complicated controls.

Capture One also includes automatic leveling (horizon correction) and automatic key-stoning (perspective correction) based on the tilt/yaw metadata the IQ includes in the raw file. Until I started shooting with an IQ I had no idea how many of my images were off by half a degree, or how much I would care once given the ability to correct the horizon all images from a shoot in a few seconds.

And automatic removal of dust (provided you do an LCC shot at some point in the shoot).
« Last Edit: October 04, 2012, 02:08:32 PM by Doug Peterson » Logged

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bcooter
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« Reply #14 on: October 04, 2012, 02:14:40 PM »
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I can't speak for direct comparison but I find the lens correction in C1 to be excellent. In particular the sharpness falloff correction, chromatic aberration removal, and purple fringing removal I find to be consistently better than any other processor with the least complicated controls.





I'm curious.

Is the latest version of high megapixel backs require more lens corrections?

I've used my Contax and p21+, p30+ for a long time and never used lens corrections.  Admittedly, I don't shoot interiors or architecture so lining up walls is not that high on my list, but I do shoot into bright backlight, sidelight, fairly long exposures, mixed with flash and practical lighting and rarely, very, very rarely have ever seen any CA, or lens detraction.

In fact we just finished a project where we want more grit to the image so on the p30+ we shot at iso 400, which put me at F 16 for the majority of the shoot.  I never saw any softness or detraction from those old zeiss lenses, in fact they are freaky sharp.  If anything those old zeiss lenses are sometimes too sharp.

One thing I have noticed with my cameras is how much better the look of processing is in the last two years, with C-1 and the latest versions of Lightroom.  Previously I thought the Phase backs were way too color sensitive and now it seems that skin tones are much more manageable and ambient color seems to pollute the image less.

Anyway, my point is, do the very high 50mp and 80mp cameras more sensitive in Focus, CA and detraction?

IMO

BC
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Dustbak
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« Reply #15 on: October 04, 2012, 02:35:25 PM »
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Not after software corrections. CA and distortion is gone. At least on 60mp it is. I have seen good things with the 80 MP's as well but have not used these much (still hoping for the H5D80).

With corrections off some lenses have forms of CA, especially with strong backlighting or mixed sources.
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Doug Peterson
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« Reply #16 on: October 04, 2012, 02:58:11 PM »
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I'm curious.

Is the latest version of high megapixel backs require more lens corrections?

I've used my Contax and p21+, p30+ for a long time and never used lens corrections.  Admittedly, I don't shoot interiors or architecture so lining up walls is not that high on my list, but I do shoot into bright backlight, sidelight, fairly long exposures, mixed with flash and practical lighting and rarely, very, very rarely have ever seen any CA, or lens detraction.

In fact we just finished a project where we want more grit to the image so on the p30+ we shot at iso 400, which put me at F 16 for the majority of the shoot.  I never saw any softness or detraction from those old zeiss lenses, in fact they are freaky sharp.  If anything those old zeiss lenses are sometimes too sharp.

One thing I have noticed with my cameras is how much better the look of processing is in the last two years, with C-1 and the latest versions of Lightroom.  Previously I thought the Phase backs were way too color sensitive and now it seems that skin tones are much more manageable and ambient color seems to pollute the image less.

Anyway, my point is, do the very high 50mp and 80mp cameras more sensitive in Focus, CA and detraction?

Resolution does allow you to see further into any given image and therefore allows you to more easily notice things like CA and sharpness falloff.

But the bigger difference is your sensors are both 1.3 crops and most chromatic aberration and sharpness fall off is in the edges of the full frame.

Worst case scenario for chromatic aberration is wide open shooting with high contrast highly detailed subject in the corners of the frame.

You won't notice distortion unless you shoot a lot of geometrically important subject matter (e.g. windows on a multi-story building), and (unless you're super picky) you won't notice it except on the lenses wider than 50. Architectural shooters obsess about distortion - many other genres are not that effected by it.

The only lens correction I'd advise you (specifically you - knowing you fairly well) to worry about is the purple fringing correction. If you have a specular highlight in the frame (anywhere in the frame) chances are it has some purple fringing that you may not even notice that much until you remove it. Given that all you need to do in Capture One is "select all", then check the box called "purple fringing" and hit the "apply to all" icon (maybe 3 seconds worth of work) it's definitely worth your effort.
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FredBGG
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« Reply #17 on: October 04, 2012, 03:58:36 PM »
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The new 50 is not a crop lens... stop spreading misinformation.

Wrote that in a bit of a rush... I have added an edit... I'll elaborate more later....

The point I was getting at is that the 50mm II is a newer design and it is in part based on a design made to use lens correction software rather than achieve a perfect image right out of the lens.

There are pros and cons to this.

The reason why I bring this up is that the OP is asking about these lenses on a FF 80MP sensor and is debating between Hasselblad or H6Y.

I think it's usefull for him to know that this rather dramatic drop of quality in the corners (and closer to the corners) will be quite evident with a FF 80mp sensor.

A look at Hasselblads published charts shows this quite clearly...





Here are the charts overlaid

As you can see the quality level in the area that would have been cropped (if Hasselblad had chosen too) is really low and the falloff in quality is very dramatic.



Even the light drop off is two stops.

Now all that said quality drop off at the edges of images often looks quite nice... bringing concentration and attention to the central subject.

However for many that is not something that they like to see.
« Last Edit: October 04, 2012, 04:18:40 PM by FredBGG » Logged
henrikfoto
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« Reply #18 on: October 04, 2012, 06:08:32 PM »
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Thank you, Fred!
These MTFs don't look very promissing. These lenses are really just good for 30x30mm..

What about Contax 645 and a 80mp back?
I use one with a P20, and that works very good. And the lenses are nice and easily draws the full frame.

But has anyone tried it with the Aptus 12 or theIQ180??

Henrik
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ErikKaffehr
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« Reply #19 on: October 04, 2012, 07:02:25 PM »
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Hi,

Image height is really distance from center. If you use an IQ 180 the corners would be at 33.6 mm in the MTF diagram. So corners are probably much better than what you wouldthink. A problem with MTF diagrams is really that they are intended for small enlargements or film.

The physical resolution of the Phase One sensor is close 100 lp/mm while the lowest curve goes to 40 lp/mm.

You can compare MTF and MTF for Hasselblad lenses is available from Hasselblad, both Zeiss and Hasselblad. The H-series have better MTF graphs than the old Zeiss lenses. A lens that performs subpar at 40 lp/mm will also be subpar at  80lp/mm.

Making use of an 80MP back may get a bit esoteric. You need to keep aperture up, achive dead on focus, keep camera vibrations out, shim the back to 0.01mm tolerance. The best performace can probably be achieved with a techical camera, like the Alpa used by Mark Dubovoy.

There are lenses for digital sensors made by Schneider and Rodenstock. They are called thinks like HR Digitar.

You could check out http://www.diglloyd.com for more info. It costs a couple of dollars but Lloyd has an unbelievable amount of info.

It seems that quite a few folks own high end digital backs and use with standard cameras and lenses, so your mileage may vary. Diglloyd tested a Nikon D800 against a Leica S2 and the Nikon was much better in the corners. The Nikon was tested with a Zeiss Macro Planar ZF. Worth of note is that it took Lloyd five series of focus brackets to achieve two totally sharp series of pictures with the Leica. On the Nikon he used live view focus and nailed it directly. MF needs live view badly, in my view.

Best regards
Erik



Quote

What about Contax 645 and a 80mp back?
I use one with a P20, and that works very good. And the lenses are nice and easily draws the full frame.

But has anyone tried it with the Aptus 12 or theIQ180??

Henrik
« Last Edit: October 06, 2012, 07:58:42 AM by ErikKaffehr » Logged

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