Ad
Ad
Ad
Pages: « 1 [2] 3 »   Bottom of Page
Print
Author Topic: 80MP on Hasselblad H??  (Read 8874 times)
Dustbak
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 2372


« Reply #20 on: October 05, 2012, 02:52:16 AM »
ReplyReply

Thank you Erik for pointing out that the distance is from center to corners and appr. 33mm on the 645 sensors (60 & 80MP). Fred, you should take the graph for the new HC50 version2 which you can find at http://www.hasselbladusa.com/media/2459977/hc50-ii%20v2.pdf

HB thought the older version was not good enough so they made the version 2. Careful checking of its MTF shows it is still very good 33mm out of the center.

Did you show the graph of the old HC50 version on purpose or was that a convenient mistake??
Logged
Anders_HK
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 1001



WWW
« Reply #21 on: October 05, 2012, 04:40:32 AM »
ReplyReply

Thank you, Fred!
These MTFs don't look very promissing. These lenses are really just good for 30x30mm..

Henrik and others consifering mfdb,

It is flat amazing of the above "experts" on mfdb that do 1) not shoot mfdb and/or 2) never produced good images with mfdb, and not so with latest backs. I suggest to ignore them and what they claim of lenses etc and listen to those actually using the systems with the backs you are considering. Fred seems on his personal crusade against mfdb, per his other threads in these forums...

Henrik,
Viewfinder is very bright, but problem is : that it is very hard to focus (MF) with 80Mp back.

I do shoot with 80MP Leaf AFi-II 12 back on Rolleiflex Hy6, check my website andersloof.com, where all beauty images and the first number shots under China from Yuen Yuen is with this combo.

I prior used 28MP Leaf on Mamiya 645AFD III including some of Mamiyas best lenses. Following is my experience.

The Rolleiflex Zeiss lenses are similar to Hassy V lenses (some of them sharper still, and the 110/2 more legendary than the Hassy version), while the Schneider are arguably sharper still, to point of being the sharpest in medium format and sharper than 35mm lenses. Yet they have very similar wonderful characters as Hassy V lenses!. I get perfect sharp focus and images, assuming I hold the camera still. All those I referenced were shot hand held and some significant lower shutter than I prior shot my Mamia with. Why?
1) Focus accuracy of Hy6 is very precise indeed, both AF and using focus indicators the MF. AF makes simple to nail the shot per considering the size of the focus sensor.
2) because I use WLF finder I do not have to lift the weight of camera up to my head, but instead cradle hold the camera which is a more steady supporting means to hold a camera.

I only use two lenses, a Schneider 80mm AF PQS Xenotar 2.8 and a Zeiss 50mm Distagon FLE. Both are very very sharp indeed, and the FLE per what I know is much similar to the Hassy V version. The Xenotar is arguably the sharpest and best character lens I have ever owned and is nearly glued to camera...

The Hy6 is like a modern version of Hassy V but with better ergonomics and balance, and with AF and more. I am very happy with this camera. It has improved my photography because I see better on the large 6x6cm focus screen and how the camera handles. It seems most who have used the camera states it to be the best camera for MFDB. I found Mamiya AFDIII system with lenses terrible in comparison.

Leaf also offere the new Credo back for Hy6 camera, but the AFi-II version offer rotating sensor and tilt display that the Credo do not. I find them very useful indeed and will not upgrade. Additionally DHW at Photokina announced their Mod 2 of Hy6 camera and that they had been given rights to further develop it. That is good news indeed. My Leaf agent in Hong Kong introduced me to Hy6, and I am happy he did. It is the best system for digital I ever shot.

The files from the 80MP back are superb. Like I said it does quire steady hand and I have to keep reminding myself of this. Personally I believe I would have failed to get as steady shots using 80MP on Mamiya 645 system, thus same issue may even be for Hassy H since requires lifing weight of camera to head level, and I believe Hassy V has weekness of not same well ergonomically as Hy6 and because you on V focus with focus screen. Do note that 80MP do require to hold camera very steady. Of course if you would like you can use also 45 and 90 degrees finders, the 45 is the brighter of them but WLF is even brighter.

I expect someone sitting in couch may now make a search of mtf for the Rollei 110/2 and argue it is not fully sharp across the frame. Then is time to ask if viewers will pixel peep or actually look at the pictures produced??? As amateur I am not getting the 110/2 because $$$ etc, but instead get a similar character using my Xenotar and extension ring using near focus. My argument is that the image is what matters and that e.g. Mamiya with e.g. 45mm D has considered only sharpness and lost out on characters. I found the 45mm D a boring lens and love my Xenotar. That 110/2 and all Rolleiflex lenses have their own lovely characters just like the V lenses... and are very sharp indeed in right condition. The Xenotar is tack sharp using 80MP @ f/2.8 indeed...

I hope above helps. Feel free to PM for more.

Best regards,
Anders
« Last Edit: October 05, 2012, 11:44:29 AM by Anders_HK » Logged
FredBGG
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 1651


« Reply #22 on: October 05, 2012, 12:51:51 PM »
ReplyReply


Did you show the graph of the old HC50 version on purpose or was that a convenient mistake??

That is about the most childish behavior I have seen from a fanboy........ Roll Eyes Roll Eyes

The graphs I posted were clearly labeled. I was in no way trying to pass off the 50mm for the 50mm II.

You may also want to take a close look at the last two charts for the HC50 II. The illumination drop off
is still just over two stops and distortion at -1.6.

Someone shopping for a lens for an 80MP sensor should keep this in mind.
The correction required to even out the illumination is effectively pushing those areas two stops
and then on top of that there is the interpolation resulting in resolution loss when moving the pixels
to remove the distortion.

AGAIN the OP is considering a change from the DF system where he will be leaving behind the Schnieder lenses.
He may after seeing this prefer to keep the MF DSLR he has now and get a tech camera for his 80MP.

He may also be better off with the Hy6 and it's larger image circles. One thing is for sure. The viewfinder
options of the Hy6 would be better suited for precision manual focus.
« Last Edit: October 05, 2012, 01:07:48 PM by FredBGG » Logged
ErikKaffehr
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 7888


WWW
« Reply #23 on: October 05, 2012, 03:17:43 PM »
ReplyReply

Hi,

Anders has a good point. I don't shoot MFDB. On the other hand Hasselblad actually publishes MTF data measured in their own lab. Hasselblad is also doing lens testing for the Swedish periodical "Foto" which used to be Aktuell Fotografi. The same tests were published on the Photodo site.

No doubt, excellent results are possible with both Zeiss and H-series lenses. Another question is if those lenses are good enough to extract maximum performance from an 80 MP back.

Lloyd Chambers test indicate that the H-series lenses he tested were not on par with the sensor. I would also suggest that if you plan to spend something like 20-50 kUSD on an MF equipment it would be a good investment to subscribe to Diglloyd's site at about 25$. He has samples from Nikon D800, Leica S2 and Hasselblad H3D50, among others.

Another good source of realistic samples is http://www.onlandscape.co.uk/ by Tim Parkin. Lot of good writing on that site.

One observation I hade when looking at the old "Photodo" site was that the Zeiss MF lenses they tested were quite weak. The best MF lenses in their tests were the Mamiya 7 lenses.

I see nothing wrong with evaluating tests made by others. I don't think that I would be able to construct better tests than Hasselblad or Diglloyd if I arranged a short time loan or rental of an MFDB and a couple of lenses. To begin with, how would I know if sensor and ground glass were in perfect alignment in rental equipment?


Best regards
Erik






Henrik and others consifering mfdb,

It is flat amazing of the above "experts" on mfdb that do 1) not shoot mfdb and/or 2) never produced good images with mfdb, and not so with latest backs. I suggest to ignore them and what they claim of lenses etc and listen to those actually using the systems with the backs you are considering. Fred seems on his personal crusade against mfdb, per his other threads in these forums...

I do shoot with 80MP Leaf AFi-II 12 back on Rolleiflex Hy6, check my website andersloof.com, where all beauty images and the first number shots under China from Yuen Yuen is with this combo.

I prior used 28MP Leaf on Mamiya 645AFD III including some of Mamiyas best lenses. Following is my experience.

The Rolleiflex Zeiss lenses are similar to Hassy V lenses (some of them sharper still, and the 110/2 more legendary than the Hassy version), while the Schneider are arguably sharper still, to point of being the sharpest in medium format and sharper than 35mm lenses. Yet they have very similar wonderful characters as Hassy V lenses!. I get perfect sharp focus and images, assuming I hold the camera still. All those I referenced were shot hand held and some significant lower shutter than I prior shot my Mamia with. Why?
1) Focus accuracy of Hy6 is very precise indeed, both AF and using focus indicators the MF. AF makes simple to nail the shot per considering the size of the focus sensor.
2) because I use WLF finder I do not have to lift the weight of camera up to my head, but instead cradle hold the camera which is a more steady supporting means to hold a camera.

I only use two lenses, a Schneider 80mm AF PQS Xenotar 2.8 and a Zeiss 50mm Distagon FLE. Both are very very sharp indeed, and the FLE per what I know is much similar to the Hassy V version. The Xenotar is arguably the sharpest and best character lens I have ever owned and is nearly glued to camera...

The Hy6 is like a modern version of Hassy V but with better ergonomics and balance, and with AF and more. I am very happy with this camera. It has improved my photography because I see better on the large 6x6cm focus screen and how the camera handles. It seems most who have used the camera states it to be the best camera for MFDB. I found Mamiya AFDIII system with lenses terrible in comparison.

Leaf also offere the new Credo back for Hy6 camera, but the AFi-II version offer rotating sensor and tilt display that the Credo do not. I find them very useful indeed and will not upgrade. Additionally DHW at Photokina announced their Mod 2 of Hy6 camera and that they had been given rights to further develop it. That is good news indeed. My Leaf agent in Hong Kong introduced me to Hy6, and I am happy he did. It is the best system for digital I ever shot.

The files from the 80MP back are superb. Like I said it does quire steady hand and I have to keep reminding myself of this. Personally I believe I would have failed to get as steady shots using 80MP on Mamiya 645 system, thus same issue may even be for Hassy H since requires lifing weight of camera to head level, and I believe Hassy V has weekness of not same well ergonomically as Hy6 and because you on V focus with focus screen. Do note that 80MP do require to hold camera very steady. Of course if you would like you can use also 45 and 90 degrees finders, the 45 is the brighter of them but WLF is even brighter.

I expect someone sitting in couch may now make a search of mtf for the Rollei 110/2 and argue it is not fully sharp across the frame. Then is time to ask if viewers will pixel peep or actually look at the pictures produced??? As amateur I am not getting the 110/2 because $$$ etc, but instead get a similar character using my Xenotar and extension ring using near focus. My argument is that the image is what matters and that e.g. Mamiya with e.g. 45mm D has considered only sharpness and lost out on characters. I found the 45mm D a boring lens and love my Xenotar. That 110/2 and all Rolleiflex lenses have their own lovely characters just like the V lenses... and are very sharp indeed in right condition. The Xenotar is tack sharp using 80MP @ f/2.8 indeed...

I hope above helps. Feel free to PM for more.

Best regards,
Anders
« Last Edit: October 05, 2012, 03:22:10 PM by ErikKaffehr » Logged

Dustbak
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 2372


« Reply #24 on: October 05, 2012, 03:21:33 PM »
ReplyReply

That is about the most childish behavior I have seen from a fanboy........ Roll Eyes Roll Eyes



I understand you do not like it when being pointed towards things you are saying that are incorrect but trying to insult someone personally is not necessary.

Not sure what I am a fan boy of since I like and have worked with basically every tool and brand you can think off. Some I really liked others less, all of them have things that make them less than ideal under circumstances.

Anyway, again you point something that is not entirely correct. That fall off on the HC50II is only that severe wide-open which is pretty common on many lenses. stopping down rapidly solves this.

Having said that the Rodenstock HR's and Schneider Digitars of this world smoke the HC lenses but have drawbacks too.
Logged
FredBGG
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 1651


« Reply #25 on: October 05, 2012, 04:07:09 PM »
ReplyReply

I understand you do not like it when being pointed towards things you are saying that are incorrect but trying to insult someone personally is not necessary.

Not sure what I am a fan boy of since I like and have worked with basically every tool and brand you can think off. Some I really liked others less, all of them have things that make them less than ideal under circumstances.

Anyway, again you point something that is not entirely correct. That fall off on the HC50II is only that severe wide-open which is pretty common on many lenses. stopping down rapidly solves this.

Having said that the Rodenstock HR's and Schneider Digitars of this world smoke the HC lenses but have drawbacks too.

Exactly my point.... with an 80 MP sensor the better choice of wide angle would be Rodenstock HR's and Schneider Digitars

Regarding insults... accusing me of deliberately trying to pass one graph for another when both were clearly labeled.
That is a totally uncalled for insult seeing that I went out of my way to post them.

But I should not respond to the provocation Wink
« Last Edit: October 05, 2012, 04:12:01 PM by FredBGG » Logged
Anders_HK
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 1001



WWW
« Reply #26 on: October 05, 2012, 04:31:19 PM »
ReplyReply

Lloyd Chambers test indicate that the H-series lenses he tested were not on par with the sensor. I would also suggest that if you plan to spend something like 20-50 kUSD on an MF equipment it would be a good investment to subscribe to Diglloyd's site at about 25$. He has samples from Nikon D800, Leica S2 and Hasselblad H3D50, among others.

He has samples of everything... I would say best is to speak to those who shoot with the lenses and back one is interested in.

I do not know the H-series lenses, but as I pointed out a very steady hand and holding breath is required for steady hand held shots with 80MP. Not so can make the "lenses not look so good". I am just saying...

Erik, there are also different series of V-lenses which makes difference.
Logged
ErikKaffehr
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 7888


WWW
« Reply #27 on: October 05, 2012, 10:32:05 PM »
ReplyReply

Hi,

I checked trough a lot of MTF graphs produced by Hasselblad. The optical configuration doesn't seem to much different between Zeiss lenses.

Regarding 80MP, I really presume that you need to have the camera on a sturdy tripod and use every precaution to take advantage of the resolution.

I would check out these two articles:

http://www.josephholmes.com/news-sharpmediumformat.html

and

http://www.josephholmes.com/news-medformatprecision.html

I'm sort of the guy who just shoots DSLR at 24MP but still I use a very good tripod and mirror lockup for serious shooting.

In my view it is very much adequate to check others writing. Diglloyd is serious about his testing and has a lot of experience with different tools. A photographer who uses just one system doesn't have a reference point. The way the original posting was asked I would presume that poster wants to have maximum quality from his back.

Most lenses are pretty good on axis (close to the center) at moderate apertures. Th major differences used to show up in the corners.

Best regards
Erik




He has samples of everything... I would say best is to speak to those who shoot with the lenses and back one is interested in.

I do not know the H-series lenses, but as I pointed out a very steady hand and holding breath is required for steady hand held shots with 80MP. Not so can make the "lenses not look so good". I am just saying...

Erik, there are also different series of V-lenses which makes difference.
« Last Edit: October 05, 2012, 11:01:30 PM by ErikKaffehr » Logged

Anders_HK
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 1001



WWW
« Reply #28 on: October 05, 2012, 11:12:31 PM »
ReplyReply

I checked trough a lot of MTF graphs produced by Hasselblad. The optical configuration doesn't seem to much different between Zeiss lenses.

Regarding 80MP, I really presume that you need to have the camera on a sturdy tripod and use every precaution to take advantage of the resolution.

http://www.josephholmes.com/news-sharpmediumformat.html
http://www.josephholmes.com/news-medformatprecision.html

I'm sort of the guy who just shoots DSLR at 24MP but still I use a very good tripod and mirror lockup for serious shooting.

Erik, apologies...but...

And ? ? .

- Did you shoot with these lenses you make comment about ?  80MP ?
- regarding Hassy V you are of course aware that it was introduced at end of 1950's and there are optic and fabrication differences? http://www.hasselbladhistorical.eu/HW/HWLenses.aspx Hassy H I do not know.
- 80MP on tripod... did you read my experience above of shooting 80MP on Hy6 >>>HANDHELD<<< ?
- tripod in studio with a model is a general poor idea. Lighting of course is best if suffice for 50 iso for optimum image quality.
- joseph holmes... So what ?? ? Rolleiflex lenses indeed result in very sharp images for 80MP. I mean, the ones I mention I use are >>>SHARP<<< and result in pixel peeping sharpness. In end I make pictures.
- for lanscape I too use tripod, however no need with MLU in most situations because Hy6 mirror is very very well dampened.

Best regards,
Anders
Logged
Anders_HK
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 1001



WWW
« Reply #29 on: October 05, 2012, 11:15:18 PM »
ReplyReply

For Hassy H reply was here;

Henrik, your dealer can't provide you a unit to test with a variety of lenses? We've done this for several IQ/Credo 60 and 80 upgrades on the H platform. The results have been mixed and very much dependent on expectations and points of comparison. A fashion shooter with a 100/2.2 is unlikely to put anything in the corner and value the look of the image and sharpness in the inner-two-thirds of the frame over anything else. An architectural shooter using the 35 is often hyper critical of the outside corners. I've seen everything from complete satisfaction to mild disgust (I could easily say the same about the lenses from every SLR we work with so this is not a blast on Hassy at all).

My point is that you're likely to get a range of answers, all of which will be valid - for the person providing that answer. As usual the best answer is for you to use such a kit and see how it behaves for you and your needs with your subjects.

My personal answer from my own shooting is the 100 and 120 are great lenses even with an 80mp demand on them.
Logged
ErikKaffehr
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 7888


WWW
« Reply #30 on: October 06, 2012, 12:13:34 AM »
ReplyReply

Hi,

The Photodo tests were published in the mid nineties. The MTF data I looked at Hasselblad was quite recent. I checked the H lenes against the Zeiss ones perhaps a year ago. All the H lenses I checked were better than the corresponding Zeiss lenses, including the famous 250/5.6 Super Achromat, so I don't see your point about the 1950 lenses. You suggest that we shouldn't care about Hasselblads own data?

I'm surprised that you are shooting handheld. I always use a tripod for serious shooting at least if it is convenient. I need it for composition and accurate focusing.

Shooting in studio with short duration electronic flash may be different, but focus is quite critical at least with DSLR, I don't see how focus would be less critical with an 80 MP digital back than with a 24 MP DSLR.

The reason I pointed to the Joseph Holmes articles are for two reasons:

- He points out that there is a need of viewfinder magnification to achieve correct focus on MFDBs
- He also found that there is significant sample variation especially on rental backs but also lenses

Joseph Holmes is a serious gut who was shooting large format and transitioned to MF digital. He has a wide experience of MF equipment as he had a lot of students shooting different MF stuff. So I think his experience is quite relevant.

To me it seems a bad investment to spend a lot of money on a high end digital back without optimizing every other aspect of capture.

Anyway, I point to information that the original poster may or may not read. That information may help him to spend his money wisely. I see nothing wrong with that.

I have added MTF curves for Hasselblad HC 100/2.2 (from Hasselblad) and for Rodenstock 100/4 HR Digaron-S. Note that the Rodenstock data is for 10/20/40/80 lp/mm and the Hasselblad data for 10/20/40 lp/mm.

If we check 40 lp data at 20 mm (about half way from center) Hasselblad has about 60% MTF while the Rodenstock is about 78% (average of tagential and sagittal).

Your sensor is around 100 lp/mm.

Keep in mind that the Hasselblad data is probably measured on a typical lens while the Rodenstock data is probably calculated MTF.

Best regards
Erik








Erik, apologies...but...

And ? ? .

- Did you shoot with these lenses you make comment about ?  80MP ?
- regarding Hassy V you are of course aware that it was introduced at end of 1950's and there are optic and fabrication differences? http://www.hasselbladhistorical.eu/HW/HWLenses.aspx Hassy H I do not know.
- 80MP on tripod... did you read my experience above of shooting 80MP on Hy6 >>>HANDHELD<<< ?
- tripod in studio with a model is a general poor idea. Lighting of course is best if suffice for 50 iso for optimum image quality.
- joseph holmes... So what ?? ? Rolleiflex lenses indeed result in very sharp images for 80MP. I mean, the ones I mention I use are >>>SHARP<<< and result in pixel peeping sharpness. In end I make pictures.
- for lanscape I too use tripod, however no need with MLU in most situations because Hy6 mirror is very very well dampened.

Best regards,
Anders
« Last Edit: October 06, 2012, 08:44:26 AM by ErikKaffehr » Logged

heinrichvoelkel
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 370


« Reply #31 on: October 06, 2012, 06:39:28 AM »
ReplyReply




To me it seems a bad investment to spend a lot of money on a high end digital back without optimizing every other aspect of capture.


Erik


+1
« Last Edit: October 06, 2012, 07:05:21 AM by heinrichvoelkel » Logged
yaya
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 1143



WWW
« Reply #32 on: October 06, 2012, 07:53:17 AM »
ReplyReply

How many of those here saying you can't shoot handheld on 80MP have actually hand held an 80MP camera?Huh
Logged

Yair Shahar | Product Manager | Mamiya Leaf |
e: ysh@mamiyaleaf.com | m: +44(0)77 8992 8199 | www.mamiyaleaf.com | yaya's blog
TMARK
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 1843


« Reply #33 on: October 06, 2012, 12:29:41 PM »
ReplyReply

You know what I like?  I like hummus.  I really do.  Best I've had was in Israel.  I also like food in Calabria.  Cuddlefish stews are simply amazing, so simple and good. 

You know what I don't like?  All this bitching.  Just a take a fucking picture that doesn't suck with whatever gear gets you there.  The OP was asking a specific question about H lenses and then it turns into this defensive hedgehog of "You haven't touched one you don't know shit!" position.  I haven't used an 80MP back, I don't want to.  What I've seen from the 80mp backs is a mixed bag, some really shitty photos and some really great photos, you know, just like in real life, and its dependant on THE PHOTOGRAPHER.  I'd rather look at Salgado's Disk Camera prints than most of what I've seen shot on an 80mp back.  Frankly, YaYa's links to Aptus 12 images shot on a DF were impressive. One reason they were so impressive is the production and shooter. 

And Blad's marketing is sickening and offensive, and I wish people would stop defending it.
Logged
Rob C
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 12213


« Reply #34 on: October 06, 2012, 02:01:21 PM »
ReplyReply

You know what I like?  I like hummus.  I really do.  Best I've had was in Israel.  I also like food in Calabria.  Cuddlefish stews are simply amazing, so simple and good. 

You know what I don't like?  All this bitching.  Just a take a fucking picture that doesn't suck with whatever gear gets you there.  The OP was asking a specific question about H lenses and then it turns into this defensive hedgehog of "You haven't touched one you don't know shit!" position.  I haven't used an 80MP back, I don't want to.  What I've seen from the 80mp backs is a mixed bag, some really shitty photos and some really great photos, you know, just like in real life, and its dependant on THE PHOTOGRAPHER.  I'd rather look at Salgado's Disk Camera prints than most of what I've seen shot on an 80mp back.  Frankly, YaYa's links to Aptus 12 images shot on a DF were impressive. One reason they were so impressive is the production and shooter. 

And Blad's marketing is sickening and offensive, and I wish people would stop defending it.


Nice 'n' straight from the shoulder bayou! I like honest opinion.

http://youtu.be/QcriNmPyY-Q

Should cheer you up a bit...

Rob C
Logged

ErikKaffehr
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 7888


WWW
« Reply #35 on: October 06, 2012, 03:14:57 PM »
ReplyReply

Hi,

I rechecked Lloyd Chambers article and also the MTF curves. What Lloyd says is that the 100/2.2 HC has nice sharpness in the center but bad corners. He also feels the lens is not really utilizing 50 MP. So Lloyd is not really negative but not positive either.

One interesting aspect is that folks who do a lot of testing can put a certain lens in context. You can compare with a benchmark lens, and you may also discover that something is out of alignment. If you don't shoot a lot of different stuff you wouldn't have a reference.

The MTF graphs of the HC 100/2.2 look pretty impressive to me. As I said before, I checked a lot of MTF data for the HC lenses and they look good compared to older Zeiss lenses.

So, Lloyd says that the HC 100/2.2 cannot utilize the 50 MP back fully. That leaves three possibilities:

1) Lloyd is wrong
2) You can stay with 50 MP and save a lot of money
3) Find a better camera with better lenses

It seems that a lot of folks use IQ180 backs on Alpa bodies with HR Digitars and HR Digarons. The Alpa solves a lot of problems.

- No mirror, causing vibration
- Calibrated focusing scales that can be used with a laser rangefinder
- Shimming the back to the camera

Best regards
Erik

Logged

FredBGG
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 1651


« Reply #36 on: October 06, 2012, 03:37:31 PM »
ReplyReply

How many of those here saying you can't shoot handheld on 80MP have actually hand held an 80MP camera?Huh

I don't think they are saying that you CAN'T shoot with an 80MP camera hand held... they are just saying that it won't really be worth it most of the time.
You only need 5.2 micron vibration during the exposure to actually end up halving the resolution of the projected image.

If anyone want to see what I mean they can do an interesting experiment.

Grab a comparison image taken with a 36 or 40 MP sensor and compare it with an image taken with an 80MP sensor.
Zoom in and see how far you have to go before you see a sharpness difference.
Logged
Anders_HK
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 1001



WWW
« Reply #37 on: October 06, 2012, 04:32:41 PM »
ReplyReply

You know what I don't like?  All this bitching.  Just a take a fucking picture that doesn't suck with whatever gear gets you there.  The OP was asking a specific question about H lenses and then it turns into this defensive hedgehog of "You haven't touched one you don't know shit!" position.  I haven't used an 80MP back, I don't want to.  What I've seen from the 80mp backs is a mixed bag, some really shitty photos and some really great photos, you know, just like in real life, and its dependant on THE PHOTOGRAPHER.

I tend to agree.

However, what is really frustrating to the a*(&@ is as soon as there is a thread on MFDB in LuLa where one jump in to advise per ones own experience on the tool, there appear to be some "experts" jump in that do not shoot MFDB and to with MTF charts, articles etc arguing contra and of benefit of DSLR and other means, and plain simply giving false information that go against experienced use of the tool in quesiton. Heck, even the Joseph Holmes applies no less to dslr and dslr lenses that are, unlike mfdb, fabricated in high volume and arguably not with same quality/calibration control.

You know what? Lets have fun; lets take the size of 80MP sensor and convert it to size of 35mm sensor, then we would have 32MP. Last time I looked there was a Nikon which exceeds that... now cannot simply those folks stay and argue of it not being possible to shoot hand held with that one instead of all time bitching up the A#@$&( of folks shooting per choice a different tool called MFDB ? ? ? I bet you sir, that Nikon will be even more frea&*(& more difficult to hold steady...

A 100/2.2 lens not sharp in corners?? Is it necessary ? ? ? What quality of image does the lens bring? It is a TOOL.


Can they please? ?? I guess not...

In my above threads were mere trying be frank and helpful to someone interested in an 80MP back. It is about far more than the pixels, the image quality is a real step up from my prior 28MP Leaf. Not only that, because of the many pixels I can crop the images and even crop out image within image. Likewise the Hy6 camera came as surprise to me and I like it much, as a tool. They are simply great tools that works for me. Else would be simple and I would sell it off and put money in bank. It is all about choice for tool, and what gets you the image the way you want.

Hassy H ? I do not want one, but the camera sure looks loads better than Phase-Mamiya...

As far as Yair, I hold alot of respect for him. He is very helpful and knowledgeable indeed. His posts are not mere marketing. Heck, I do not even feel anyone involved in Leaf product have ever marketed to me. They provide honest and frank information, and in end let us test the backs and send us raw files for our own testing for us to make up our minds. DSLRs? Geewiz, marketing is so strong that people go around dreaming they are miracle machines!!! Any issue with my Leaf, I contact Yair or Gavin in HK who sold me my back. Heck Gavin even reply on Sundays! Anything with my Hy6 I contact CEO of DHW. Try that with Nikon, Canon, Sony etc... Choice of tools.

 Wink
« Last Edit: October 06, 2012, 04:47:45 PM by Anders_HK » Logged
yaya
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 1143



WWW
« Reply #38 on: October 06, 2012, 04:36:25 PM »
ReplyReply

Quote
You know what I like?  I like hummus.  I really do.  Best I've had was in Israel.
which one was it? Ask 500 Israelis for their favourite hummus joint and you'll get 500 different answers...
Quote
Frankly, YaYa's links to Aptus 12 images shot on a DF were impressive. One reason they were so impressive is the production and shooter
thanks, don't tell anyone but those images were shot handheld with (heaven forbid) manual focus...
Logged

Yair Shahar | Product Manager | Mamiya Leaf |
e: ysh@mamiyaleaf.com | m: +44(0)77 8992 8199 | www.mamiyaleaf.com | yaya's blog
ErikKaffehr
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 7888


WWW
« Reply #39 on: October 06, 2012, 05:18:03 PM »
ReplyReply

Hi,

Just a few points:

1) MTF is the standard method of lens evaluation. It's used by Zeiss, Leitz, everyone, and MTF curves presented were given by Hasselblad and Rodenstock. If you are not familiar with MTF you may read these two very good articles by H. H. Nasse of Zeiss:

http://www.smt.zeiss.com/C12567A8003B8B6F/EmbedTitelIntern/CLN_30_MTF_en/$File/CLN_MTF_Kurven_EN.pdf

http://www.smt.zeiss.com/C12567A8003B8B6F/EmbedTitelIntern/CLN_31_MTF_en/$File/CLN_MTF_Kurven_2_en.pdf

2) Joseph Holmes is a well know large format shooter who converted to MFD. I simply posted a link to two articles he has written. His experience may differ from yours, other customers may be less fortunate. Anyway, Josep Holmes is quite respected in the industry not least for his work on color spaces.

3) In this thread there was no discussion on DSLR vs MFDB, except that Diglloyd compared D800E with Leica S2 and found the D800 sharper at least in the corners. That is a fact. Could be the wrong conclusion. This is a bit of useful information as the systems are at least five times apart in cost.

4) No one stated that it is not possible to shoot handheld with any camera. On the other hand it is widely accepted that it is necessary to take every precaution to reduce vibrations to achieve optimum performance. Both mirror and focal plane shutter may cause camera vibrations.

5) No one said that there is less issue with DSLRs than MFDBs. Diglloyd has sent several of his cameras back to Nikon and Canon for adjustment. It is also well known that Nikon did have issues with one of the AF-sensors being out of adjustment on the D800/D800E. Diglloyd also found that it is not possible to eek the best performance out of the best lenses with AF on todays DSLRs, but live view and live view AF come to rescue.

Regarding pixel sizes, both the Nikon D800 and the Sony Alpha 99 have smaller pixel pitch than the IQ180, and I don't think that anyone ever said that any of those cameras can be shot handheld without loss of quality. I also don't think that anyone ever said that any of those camera could achieve perfect AF, but both cameras do have live view that makes accurate focusing possible. Hi speed lenses have more often than not problems with focus shift, that may even make fool of live view, unless focusing at shooting aperture.

It seems that the latest lenses from Canon and Nikon can achieve much better AF than older lenses on older bodies.

Some folks seem to be able to achieve very good manual focus. It may be easier to achieve with old style manual lenses than with new style AF lenses.

This discussion is simply about finding the best lenses for the most expensive back on the market.

I would add that I shoot Sony, and that camera always sits on a tripod for critical work. I always use MLU and self timer for critical work, and always use live view AF when I can.

I have tested my Sony Alpha 900 (I think it was) on tripod with a 200 mm lens. Without MLU, half the resolution was lost. Antishake did help little. So just not using MLU made my 24MP DSLR into a 6MP DSLR. The images still looked decently sharp, unless I checked really carefully. So I'm quite religious about MLU.

Best regards
Erik









I tend to agree.

However, what is really frustrating to the a*(&@ is as soon as there is a thread on MFDB in LuLa where one jump in to advise per ones own experience on the tool, there appear to be some "experts" jump in that do not shoot MFDB and to with MTF charts, articles etc arguing contra and of benefit of DSLR and other means, and plain simply giving false information that go against experienced use of the tool in quesiton. Heck, even the Joseph Holmes applies no less to dslr and dslr lenses that are, unlike mfdb, fabricated in high volume and arguably not with same quality/calibration control.

You know what? Lets have fun; lets take the size of 80MP sensor and convert it to size of 35mm sensor, then we would have 32MP. Last time I looked there was a Nikon which exceeds that... now cannot simply those folks stay and argue of it not being possible to shoot hand held with that one instead of all time bitching up the A#@$&( of folks shooting per choice a different tool called MFDB ? ? ? I bet you sir, that Nikon will be even more frea&*(& more difficult to hold steady...

A 100/2.2 lens not sharp in corners?? Is it necessary ? ? ?


Can they please? ?? I guess not...

In my above threads were mere trying be frank and helpful to someone interested in an 80MP back. I love mine. It is about far more than the pixels, the image quality is a real step up from my prior 28MP Leaf. Not only that, because of the many pixels I can crop the images and even crop out image within image. Likewise the Hy6 camera came as surprise to me and I like it much, as a tool. They are simply great tools that works for me. Else would be simple and I would sell it off and put money in bank. It is all about choice for tool, and what gets you the image the way you want.

Hassy H ? I do not want one, but the camera sure looks loads better than Phase-Mamiya...

As far as Yair, I hold alot of respect for him. He is very helpful and knowledgeable indeed. His posts are not mere marketing. Heck, I do not even feel anyone involved in Leaf product have ever marketed to me. They provide honest and frank information, and in end let us test the backs and send us raw files for our own testing for us to make up our minds. DSLRs? Geewiz, marketing is so strong that people go around dreaming they are miracle machines!!! Any issue with my Leaf, I contact Yair or Gavin in HK who sold me my back. Heck Gavin even reply on Sundays! Anything with my Hy6 I contact CEO of DHW. Try that with Nikon, Canon, Sony etc... Choice of tools.

 Wink
« Last Edit: October 06, 2012, 05:37:42 PM by ErikKaffehr » Logged

Pages: « 1 [2] 3 »   Top of Page
Print
Jump to:  

Ad
Ad
Ad