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Author Topic: D800/e Color Response/Profiles, Skin Tones  (Read 10380 times)
TMARK
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« on: October 14, 2012, 09:10:38 AM »
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Processed through C1 with WB adjustments only, color is not great.  Its not that the color is inaccurate, its just odd.  There is usually a general yellow cast, certain reds are over saturated (but not all, certain hues that you find in caucasian skin), and some over saturated blues.  When I say over saturated blues and red hues, I mean so saturated that they bleed color, they tend to absorb nearby colors.  I can usually clean these up in post, but not always, and each frame requires slightly different adjustment.  To be frank, it reminds me of a digital elf from 2003.  Under strobes it is less of an issue, because the problem is consistent and easier to fix.  I've had the D800e for months, but have mainly shot for B&W, using the Canons for people due to work flow considerations.  I love the color from the Canons (DS3, 5d2, 5d3).

My question is whether anyone knows of a profile, or if one is being created, that can be used in C1 or LR 4.1 that is actually pleasing?

Thanks,

TM
« Last Edit: October 14, 2012, 09:21:02 AM by TMARK » Logged
Ellis Vener
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« Reply #1 on: October 14, 2012, 10:13:32 AM »
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Sorry, I am not seeing the problems you are seeing with color and skin tones, using either daylight (direct and shade)  or flash. I am processing with Lightroom 4.2 and looking at files processed using the 2012 Process and both  the Adobe Standard Profile and a custom profile created using the Xrite ColorChecker Passport target and software.
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Ellis Vener
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MrSmith
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« Reply #2 on: October 14, 2012, 12:57:39 PM »
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 When I say over saturated blues and red hues, I mean so saturated that they bleed color, they tend to absorb nearby colors. 

Are you using a laptop screen? They are often 6 bit ditherd to 8bit and I see bleed with strong reds and blues that simply isn't there on an eizo.
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Ellis Vener
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« Reply #3 on: October 14, 2012, 01:22:39 PM »
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Are you using a laptop screen? They are often 6 bit ditherd to 8bit and I see bleed with strong reds and blues that simply isn't there on an eizo.
To further my comments and back up what Mr. Smith is saying I am viewing on a 27" iMac and also an Eizo CG.
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Ellis Vener
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marcmccalmont
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« Reply #4 on: October 14, 2012, 01:33:53 PM »
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Not directly related but I pointed an IR remote control at my D800E in liveview and the IR was very pronounced on my 5D it was almost unnoticeable so I suspect a weak IR filter might be the culprit to the reddish skin tones on the D800's perhaps a IR blocking filter for your portrait lens would help? Although a disadvantage with skin tones I'm thinking the weak IR filter might be an advantage with foliage?
Marc 
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Marc McCalmont
TMARK
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« Reply #5 on: October 14, 2012, 02:14:30 PM »
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Viewing is with an Eizo and a 23" Cinema Display.

I've dug around, and here is what I've concluded: 

1.  C1 D800 profile is not good.  I processed out with an neutral profile (Adobe DNG Neutral and Tiff Neutral" and things calmed down.  Files were then a little desaturated but very easy to fix.  All the bad reds and odd blues were cleaned up.

2. I should be using LR 4.2.  Its not on my main machine because I can't update OSX because of legacy software issues.  I do have it on my MacBook Pro.  I'll start there as well.  The 2012 process blows my mind on Leica files, so here is hoping.

3.  IR, yeah, it is for serious.  I will be looking into this.

4.  This is certainly a profile issue, probably an IR issue, and not hardware related.

5. I've grown lazy with the Canons and backs. The Canons are such a known quantity that teh profiles are very good in C1, and DPP.  The backs have a great number of profiles available, its stunning, all are tailored to the sensor.  I haven't made a profile since the 1ds2 proved so crappy with skin.  Its been a long time since I've had to think about this stuff.

I'll report back in a few days.

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kers
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« Reply #6 on: October 14, 2012, 05:43:18 PM »
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I would try another color profile-
i do not like the adobe profile so i use the camera profile...( but i am more into architecture)

or another raw converter; to start with NX2 - Nikons own.


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Pieter Kers
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tho_mas
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« Reply #7 on: October 14, 2012, 06:30:43 PM »
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... so saturated that they bleed color, they tend to absorb nearby colors.  I can usually clean these up in post...
this indicates that the gamut of your monitor is clipping the high saturated colors. If colors would be clipped in the source file (or the processed TIF) there would be no way to regain color differentiation later in post.

I processed out with an neutral profile (Adobe DNG Neutral and Tiff Neutral" and things calmed down.  Files were then a little desaturated but very easy to fix. All the bad reds and odd blues were cleaned up.
The "DNG" and "TIF" profiles are the very same as the "no color correction" profile in C1. These profiles are "neutral" ... and therefore the color characteristic of the actual camera is not reflected. If this works better for you than the generic D800 profile you can just as well do the following:
- open a D800 raw file in C1
- assign the NikonD800-generic profile in "base characteristics'
- go to the "Advanced Color Editor"
- adjust global saturation to -5 (or -10 or whatever you prefer)
- save the setting as an "ICC profile" (name it "NikonD800-desat" or so ... just preserve C1's naming convention)
- load this profile for your D800 in "base characteristics" (you can also include input profiles in a "Style" so that you can apply the new profile on import of new images)

... or simply load the ICC profile (zip attachment below) I've just made for you (desaturated by -8) and drop it in ~/user/library/colorsync/profiles.
In C1 the profile will show up under ICC Profile->NikonD800 as "desat8".

This way the shape of the D800 profile (see attachment: wireframe = generic, solid = desaturated by -8) is preserved and therefore also its look... or in other words: the relation of the colors to each other is preserved, but everything is a bit desaturated. Unlike the DNG, TIF or No Color Correction profiles that do not reflect the camera's color characteristic.
« Last Edit: October 14, 2012, 06:48:54 PM by tho_mas » Logged
MichaelEzra
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« Reply #8 on: October 14, 2012, 07:18:05 PM »
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Here is an example of skintones captured on D800e.
NEF is developed using a custom neutral DCP profile without a base curve. Instead, new RawTherapee tone curves offering a better color fidelity are used to transpose neutral DCP rendering into a more engaging and colorful version.
I am attaching the same DCP profile, feel free to use. Either this or a bit revised version will be available in the next release of RawTherapee.
This profile is standard DCP and works well with ACR as well.
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TMARK
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« Reply #9 on: October 14, 2012, 08:38:59 PM »
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Michael and Thomas, thank you so much.  I will dig deeper tomorrow and report back after trying these profiles. 

Using my Mac Book Pro (last generation) and LR 4.2, Adobe Standard, things have settled down to normal on the MBP screen and on the Eizo.

Have either of you heard of a profile being corrupted?

Thanks again,

TM
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ErikKaffehr
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« Reply #10 on: October 14, 2012, 10:45:47 PM »
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Hi,

Would you post a JPG image with problematic color rendition and the raw image it was generated from it may be easier to find out the problem.

Best regards
Erik


Michael and Thomas, thank you so much.  I will dig deeper tomorrow and report back after trying these profiles. 

Using my Mac Book Pro (last generation) and LR 4.2, Adobe Standard, things have settled down to normal on the MBP screen and on the Eizo.

Have either of you heard of a profile being corrupted?

Thanks again,

TM
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TMARK
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« Reply #11 on: October 15, 2012, 09:51:18 PM »
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More to report:  All problems solved.  I am not sure why, but my entire color management system was off.  Monitor profiles reverted to old, old profiles.  C1 output profile was set to the camera input profile, thus strange, strange times. 

Thanks for everyone's input, I greatly appreciate it.
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BernardLanguillier
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« Reply #12 on: October 17, 2012, 07:09:11 PM »
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More to report:  All problems solved.  I am not sure why, but my entire color management system was off.  Monitor profiles reverted to old, old profiles.  C1 output profile was set to the camera input profile, thus strange, strange times. 

Thanks for everyone's input, I greatly appreciate it.

Hi Tmark,

Are you still suffering from issues after this?

You commented in a different thread that colors were still not up to your liking with C1 Pro?

Cheers,
Bernard
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TMARK
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« Reply #13 on: October 17, 2012, 11:17:25 PM »
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Hi Tmark,

Are you still suffering from issues after this?

You commented in a different thread that colors were still not up to your liking with C1 Pro?

Cheers,
Bernard


Bernard,

Not as bad as before but really not good, consistently, in C1 or LR4.2.  I tried Raw Developer and Capture NX.  NX does the job, gets the color I need.  Perfect.  NX addresses some odd issues I had in C1, such as a cyan cast in highlights.  NX is neutral.  All I really have to do in NX is set the white balance, select neutral picture style, set sharpening to off, and adjust NR to taste.  It is an ungodly application, but is sure does work wonders with the files.  I'm mainly concerned with caucasian skin tones, particularly pasty white people with light skin and rosy cheeks and lips.  I am very impressed with D800 files from NX.

What developer are you using?

T
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BernardLanguillier
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« Reply #14 on: October 18, 2012, 04:32:42 PM »
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What developer are you using?

I have been using mostly LR4.2 for general work.

More C1 Pro for portrait since I did put a small home studio together a few months back that I use casually. I am using Profoto D1 Air monoblocks.

I find the C1 Pro skin colors to be OK when using their Portrait profile on top of their flash white balance, but my applications are non critical and I do not have the eye for skin tones really. So I may not have noticed some issues.

Cheers,
Bernard
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TMARK
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« Reply #15 on: October 19, 2012, 08:24:55 AM »
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I have been using mostly LR4.2 for general work.

More C1 Pro for portrait since I did put a small home studio together a few months back that I use casually. I am using Profoto D1 Air monoblocks.

I find the C1 Pro skin colors to be OK when using their Portrait profile on top of their flash white balance, but my applications are non critical and I do not have the eye for skin tones really. So I may not have noticed some issues.

Cheers,
Bernard


Bernard,

I had a suspicion that the C1 profile was wacky because it was made under essentially lab conditions at ISO 100, meaning 5400k, or maybe under strobes.  For real high noon, cloudless sky, few shadows, lighting, the color is actully very good.  A tad over saturated, but good.  Late afternoon when the color temp drops, or at higher ISO, or in shade, it gets strange.  I have a suspicion, not backed by facts, that the D800 responds very differently to color, very color sensitive.  LR 4.2 does a better job, and NX does a better job, and RD does a good job.  I was dreading this, but I think I have to make profiles for different lighting. 
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BernardLanguillier
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« Reply #16 on: October 19, 2012, 08:55:05 AM »
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Bernard,

I had a suspicion that the C1 profile was wacky because it was made under essentially lab conditions at ISO 100, meaning 5400k, or maybe under strobes.  For real high noon, cloudless sky, few shadows, lighting, the color is actully very good.  A tad over saturated, but good.  Late afternoon when the color temp drops, or at higher ISO, or in shade, it gets strange.  I have a suspicion, not backed by facts, that the D800 responds very differently to color, very color sensitive.  LR 4.2 does a better job, and NX does a better job, and RD does a good job.  I was dreading this, but I think I have to make profiles for different lighting. 

Thanks.

Cheers,
Bernard
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TMARK
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« Reply #17 on: October 22, 2012, 12:06:16 PM »
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New to report:  Under strobes in C1 color is near perfect.  A little over saturated for my taste, but not by much.
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BernardLanguillier
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« Reply #18 on: October 22, 2012, 08:51:26 PM »
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New to report:  Under strobes in C1 color is near perfect.  A little over saturated for my taste, but not by much.

OK, then my eyes aren't that weird. :-)

Cheers,
Bernard
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TMARK
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« Reply #19 on: October 22, 2012, 10:41:08 PM »
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OK, then my eyes aren't that weird. :-)

Cheers,
Bernard


Not weird at all!  No real bias in any direction, just oversaturated in the blues.  Nice caucasian skin tones.

T
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