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Author Topic: LEAF and Phase ONE  (Read 2222 times)
fcicconi
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« on: October 15, 2012, 11:51:19 AM »
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Hallo,

anybody can explain or have made a test with New Leaf DB and Phase One IQ series?
Are the file so different?
Are the live view usable? ( I mean are the live view possible to use outside with different light) what the best, Leaf or Phase One?

I tested only IQ 160, is very good, the files are good and touch screen with all the function are good... Not the live view!
I tested only with a Nikon d800... is not so different the quality file... :-) but the price  a lot

Any comment?

My best.
Fabrizio
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FredBGG
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« Reply #1 on: October 15, 2012, 12:43:57 PM »
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Ciao Fabrizio.

Ti rispondo in Italiano perche ogni scusa e buona per me fare un po di pratica in Italiano.
Vivievo e faccievo foto di moda a Milano annin fa!

Il live view dei dorsi Phase One e Leaf e molto limitato.
la causa e it tipo di sensore che non e progettato per video o live view.
Gli ingenieri di phase one hannon fatto I salti mortali per ottenetre il live view che hanno.
Sono stati abili in ottenere quello che hanno ottenuto, ma e molto limitato.

Per essempio e inutilizabile in bassa luce con flash. E inutilizabile in molta luce.
E lento da fare shiffo per cio inuutilizabile per la messa a fuoco on anche poco movimento del soggetto.

Riguardo la quality della D800 la differenza e molto pocco. Direi che bissogna fare ingrandimenti molto grandi per vedere la differenza
di resoluzione anche facciendo confronti con il dorso su una camera technica senza spechietto o otturatore sul piano focale (meno vibrazzioni)
Direi anche che bissogna guargdare da viccino quei ingrandimenti molto grandi... cosa che non succede molto... in genere un grange ingrandimento e per una visione da
almeno qualche metro.

Alte cose da tenere a mente sone..

In live view con Phase O Leaf non e possibile fare contemporaneamente autofocus.
Con la D800 innvece e si e su qualuncue parte dello schermo anche con riconoscimento faciale o di on elemento
che viene seguito se si muove la camera.

Io lavoravo con una Phase One, ma lo ho abbandonato con l'uscita della D800.
Quando hanno annunciato la D800 mi sembrava che la Nikon essagerava quando dicieva che ha quality paragonabili con MF digitale
ma quando ho visto I risultati sonno rimasto "convertito"

Amo sempre il medio formato, ma preferisco il medio format che ha piu carattere ed e quello con film in formati di 6x7 e piu grande.

Ciao e saluti dalla California.... quanto mi manca l'Italia Cry

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gazwas
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« Reply #2 on: October 15, 2012, 01:29:50 PM »
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Live view on all digital backs is very limited and not really worth considering next to any modern Canon or Nikon.

Image quality is very similar between the D800 and IQ/Credo with the slight edge obviously going to the digi backs but not by as much as the price difference would suggest. Colour is much better on the digi backs.

Digi backs shine when you need to use with multiple platforms (tech/view camera) but if just sticking one on a DSLR then the benefits aren't that great.

You can get 80mpix with a digi back.
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trying to think of something meaningful........ Err?
Doug Peterson
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« Reply #3 on: October 15, 2012, 02:17:34 PM »
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Hallo,

anybody can explain or have made a test with New Leaf DB and Phase One IQ series?
Are the file so different?
Are the live view usable? ( I mean are the live view possible to use outside with different light) what the best, Leaf or Phase One?

I tested only IQ 160, is very good, the files are good and touch screen with all the function are good... Not the live view!
I tested only with a Nikon d800... is not so different the quality file... :-) but the price  a lot

Since you've tested them:

Image quality with Phase One IQ160 and Credo 60 is essentially identical. The color is a bit different; portrait/skintone with the Credo is a major point of attention, but since Skintone is subjective you should make your own evaluation of this issue.

Live view of the IQ160, IQ140, Credo 40, and Credo 60 are all essentially identical. For tripod-based work of still subjects (e.g. still life, product, interiors, etc) it is quite workable for composition, and in controlled lighting (e.g. product/still-life) it's quite workable for focus; for portrait, handheld, sports it is not usable; for landscape/architecture/interior it can be quite good for composition if you use an ND filter - without the ND filter bright areas of the photo will cause the live view to become unusable.  The live view of the IQ180 and Credo 80 are moderately better.

When evaluating file quality I strongly suggest you work the files up. Files that appear very similar in quality at default settings can be very different when you start to add/remove contrast, play with the color, dodge/burn, enlarge, or otherwise adjusted. Unless you normally print your files with no adjustment then you should not test/compare camera systems with no adjustments. I strongly suggest for Phase and Leaf that you do these adjustments in Capture One as there is a lot of work that goes into Capture One to get the most out of a Phase/Leaf file.

There are many difference between the camera systems of a D800 and IQ/Credo on a MF body. Here is a post where I reviewed some of the differences. They are very very different tools and which one you want to shoot with will depend on many different factors - the resolution, color, and file quality of medium format is only one of them.

If you usually shoot tethered you may also look at the Phase One P+ backs; the P40+ and P65+ use the same sensors as the IQ140 and IQ160. They do not have the iPhone-quality LCD, snappy touch screen interface, FW800, and the dozen or so features of the IQ series, but the final-image-quality is the same and when shooting tethered the computer monitor is a perfectly great substitute for having a better LCD - at least given how much more affordable these backs are. They are also far more widely available pre-owned than the IQ series which is still very new.
« Last Edit: October 15, 2012, 03:27:13 PM by Doug Peterson » Logged

DOUG PETERSON (dep@digitaltransitions.com), Digital Transitions
Dealer for Phase One, Mamiya Leaf, Arca-Swiss, Cambo, Profoto
Office: 877.367.8537
Cell: 740.707.2183
Phase One IQ250 FAQ
Paul2660
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« Reply #4 on: October 15, 2012, 02:55:20 PM »
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Live view on a Phase Back, IQ even with a ND filter is pretty worthless.   But everyone should try it as their mileage may vary.  You sure
don't want to make it a "selling point". 

In outdoor lighting, even with a ND, the blooming effects are next to impossible to work with.  I have tried stopping down a lens all the way, using a 16x ND filter
all together and in separate attempts and each time the blooming makes it next to impossible to work with.  You can't judge anything and if the light changes at
all then the blooming starts all over again.  I have had no success indoors either as there is just not enough data presented at any one given time to be able to
get an accurate focus.  Wide angle, or medium telephoto are both the same. 

Outdoors, setting up the camera and then moving around with Live View on is very frustrating.  Each time you move the entire view is recalculated and then has
to bloom up, bloom down, the stabilize.  Then if you zoom in on the LCD to check focus the whole process starts over again zooming out the same.  I found that once zoomed
in enough to check the focus the blooming alone made it really next to impossible to work with, (and you can literally watch the battery meter drain down).   I had hoped
that Phase might come out with a firmware upgrade that would buffer the blooming so you can get something done, but it doesn't look like that will happen with
this generation of backs.

Still love the output, hate the LCC process and not being able to see like with a DSLR, but the image quality is just so much better with a Tech Camera and lens I
have no desire to go back. 

Hopefully LiveView or some form  of it will happen with the next generation of Phase Back whenever that occurs.

Paul
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Paul Caldwell
Little Rock, Arkansas U.S.
Photography > http://photosofarkansas.com
Blog> http://paulcaldwellphotography.com
fcicconi
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« Reply #5 on: October 16, 2012, 04:21:04 AM »
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Ciao Fabrizio.

Ti rispondo in Italiano perche ogni scusa e buona per me fare un po di pratica in Italiano.
Vivievo e faccievo foto di moda a Milano annin fa!

Il live view dei dorsi Phase One e Leaf e molto limitato.
la causa e it tipo di sensore che non e progettato per video o live view.
Gli ingenieri di phase one hannon fatto I salti mortali per ottenetre il live view che hanno.
Sono stati abili in ottenere quello che hanno ottenuto, ma e molto limitato.

Per essempio e inutilizabile in bassa luce con flash. E inutilizabile in molta luce.
E lento da fare shiffo per cio inuutilizabile per la messa a fuoco on anche poco movimento del soggetto.

Riguardo la quality della D800 la differenza e molto pocco. Direi che bissogna fare ingrandimenti molto grandi per vedere la differenza
di resoluzione anche facciendo confronti con il dorso su una camera technica senza spechietto o otturatore sul piano focale (meno vibrazzioni)
Direi anche che bissogna guargdare da viccino quei ingrandimenti molto grandi... cosa che non succede molto... in genere un grange ingrandimento e per una visione da
almeno qualche metro.

Alte cose da tenere a mente sone..

In live view con Phase O Leaf non e possibile fare contemporaneamente autofocus.
Con la D800 innvece e si e su qualuncue parte dello schermo anche con riconoscimento faciale o di on elemento
che viene seguito se si muove la camera.

Io lavoravo con una Phase One, ma lo ho abbandonato con l'uscita della D800.
Quando hanno annunciato la D800 mi sembrava che la Nikon essagerava quando dicieva che ha quality paragonabili con MF digitale
ma quando ho visto I risultati sonno rimasto "convertito"

Amo sempre il medio formato, ma preferisco il medio format che ha piu carattere ed e quello con film in formati di 6x7 e piu grande.

Ciao e saluti dalla California.... quanto mi manca l'Italia Cry

PARLI BENISSIMO ITALIANO COMPLIMENTI!
MEGLIO DEL MIO INGLESE MACCARONI! :-)
CIAO QUANDO TORNERAI IN ITALIA CHIAMA PURE:-)
IO VORREI SCAPPARE DALL'ITALIA!!!
GRAZIE PER I CONSIGLI, HO APPENA PRESO UN P40+ SECOND HAND (PIU' ERCONOMICO, PECCATO PER IL CCD PICCOLO) E FORSE FARO' UN UPGRADE IL PROSSIMO ANNO SE IL LAVORO ME LO PERMETTE...
PREFERISCO IL MF CHE LA DSLR... PER VARI MOTIVI. VOGLIO USARE SOLO UNA MACCHINA FOTOGRAFICA PER  I MIEI LAVORI DI RICERCA E PER IL LAVORO COMMERCIALE CHE IN QUESTO MOMENTO E' SIMILE AL LAVORO DI RICERCA...

PROBABILMENTE IN FUTURO ACQUISTERO' ANCHE UNA NIKON MA OCCORRONO MOLTI SOLDI

GRAZIE A PRESTO!
FABRIZIO
www.fabriziocicconi.it
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fcicconi
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« Reply #6 on: October 16, 2012, 04:26:08 AM »
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Thank a lot to everybody,

Is difficult choose, I worked for 6 years with a P25/Contax, great back, but I need an upgrade. I bought a second hand P40+ and change all my equipment with PhaseOne. Now I've to buy some lenses, Mamiya is cheaper than con tax, but the quality lenses are terrible...

In Italy say PIANO PIANO! Slowly i'll make my eqiupment


My best regards!
Fabrizio
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kdphotography
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« Reply #7 on: October 16, 2012, 08:40:38 AM »
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Those with actual experience using the Phase/Mamiya platform with recent generation MFDBs will all tell you that in general your best lens choices will be the newer Phase One "D series" lenses and the new Schneider LS lenses (with DF or DF+).

ken  Smiley
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TMARK
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« Reply #8 on: October 16, 2012, 09:03:49 AM »
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Ken,

Probbaly true (and I only say probably because I have not extensively used the new(er) backs), but I like the older lenses because they are less well corrected, this for portraits/fashion/catalogue.  The sharpest, corner to corner, well corrected lenses are just too rough on people, not organic enough for people photography.  Landscape, repro, is a differnet story.
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kdphotography
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« Reply #9 on: October 16, 2012, 09:59:59 AM »
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Your experience is very true; and being in that "sweet spot" allows you to use more lenses for portraiture without taking a huge hit to the pocket book.   Smiley  ken
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fcicconi
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« Reply #10 on: October 16, 2012, 10:07:05 AM »
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Your experience is very true; and being in that "sweet spot" allows you to use more lenses for portraiture without taking a huge hit to the pocket book.   Smiley  ken
I'm happyt that you say that the old lenses it could be nicer, becouse I've not enough money for to buy the new..
I begen with 80, 120 macro, I will buy 35mm and if I sell my old equipment 55mm schneider...
I've seen that mamiya 645 have a 24 mm and a 50mm schift.
With P40+ I've to change some optic parameter for the smaler CCD..

F
 Smiley
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Anders_HK
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« Reply #11 on: October 16, 2012, 11:32:10 AM »
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I'm happyt that you say that the old lenses it could be nicer, becouse I've not enough money for to buy the new..
I begen with 80, 120 macro, I will buy 35mm and if I sell my old equipment 55mm schneider...
I've seen that mamiya 645 have a 24 mm and a 50mm schift.
With P40+ I've to change some optic parameter for the smaler CCD..

F
 Smiley

Hi Fabrizio,

There are those using only dslr and/or film that will tell you that quality from the D800 E and other late dslr are about the same. That is not the case if you read from those who have extensive use of both systems. There are differences in image quality, however we must each of us determine by demo and sample raw files if MFDB are worth it or not. To me it has been and I shoot MFDB as an advanced amateur since 2007. I have shot Leaf since early 2008 and am now on my second Leaf back, the 80MP AFi-II 12. There is no way I wish to step back to dslr, however, what we shoot and choice of gear is individual. What works for me may not work for all, and some plain prefer dslr. It is not only the file quality I like in MFDB but also that the camera systems are more... ehh... basic. It help me focus on the image.

Since over a year I have had the Rolleiflex Hy6 system with two top notch Schneider and Zeiss lenses, which I very much enjoy. That said I gave up Mamiya for certain issues with the system. Thus I can recommend you on that basis. I had Mamiya ZD camera, AFD and AFDIII. For sure do not get a ZD. My first Leaf back was the 28MP 44x33mm sensor. I would recommend at least a DF camera, or... perhaps just pick up a used AFD camera in good condition, and preferably one that has recent been serviced. Then if Mamiya will really come out with a complete new camera within next few years you can upgrade to that one at that time. The one lens I very much liked from my Mamiya collection was the 80/1.9N. Not because it was sharpest but because its very shallow DOF enabled a very lovely character to the images, and it was also of impressive low weight. The 45mm D was very sharp, but I found it a tad boring in character, though good to have lens and small Smiley. I did not like lenses that were tad heavy starting from 55-110 because it made more difficult to hand hold really steady. Especially perhaps since I am an amateur and do not use the camera each day. If you do consider the 80/1.9 I would advise you to go with at least the DF since the focus system was improved and beep when in focus. With AFDIII it needed to turn focus until green confirmation light came on and until it went off, then turn it back halfway, which I found to be plain madness when handholding for portraits. I also had the 24mm fish eye but found it tad soft already for 28MP, as of course it was a fisheye and thus a lens for special application. The 28 D was expensive but worked well for me. The new 35mm may be suffice and is sharper than the older AF35mm. Beyond those lenses I am certain a search on e.g. forum.getdpi.com will help you find answers. I also suggest you to not buy too many lenses to start with, but just your 1-3 favorite focal lengths. On my Rolleiflex Hy6 my 80/2.8 is near glued to the camera.

The other thing is the Phase One versus Leaf backs. Newer backs use same sensors but they have different coding which result in different characters, and different features and price. Leaf files have always had a reputation for being more film like in character. They are also less in price. That said, they are very solid products indeed. My 28MP Leaf dropped on hardwood floor once and rolled and bounced multiple times as a ball. It made my heart stop, but the back nevertheless kept on working excellent also after that... though of course ensure your back will not fall same as mine did! I find support from Leaf excellent. Perhaps choice of back Phase One versus Leaf should be decided by pricing and support from agent in your area, as of course also your preference form the files. Do purchase from an agent/dealer that will give you support and warranty.

I hope above helps. Best of luck!  Smiley

Best regards,
Anders
« Last Edit: October 16, 2012, 11:39:30 AM by Anders_HK » Logged
TMARK
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« Reply #12 on: October 16, 2012, 01:25:47 PM »
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Fabrizio,

What do you shoot?  Is it for love or money?  Or both?

T
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fcicconi
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« Reply #13 on: October 17, 2012, 09:30:31 AM »
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Thank a lot to everybody.
I shoot for money and for exibitions too.
www.fabriziocicconi.it

I worked with a contax and P25, was great, after 100000 shoot the back is still ok, but I need an upgrade fore many reasons.
Someone asked to me a file that I could print 4x4 mt and I made a stiching complicate above all becouse the picture was on a bush.

Now I restar with new camera that I tested with IQ160, Great back.. P40+ I don't know, but I've not enough money to buy a big DB. I'd like. I bought P40+ (2500 shot, like new) phase One DF camera and 120 Macro lenses second hand 11.500 euro
Probally next year if the work continue I will be an upgrade. Leaf or Phase One I don't Know

At Italy is difficoult at the moment, I was lucky becouse last year I began to make several interiors pictures that was pubblish on the best magazine like Elle dec UK ecc...
I like make photo, is my life.

Now I ask some advice becouse My dealer ovviously that I didn't bought the camera  ( He gave me the P40+ contact He's very nice) I don't know whta kind of advice can give to me about the lenses.

I will strast with few lenses, 35 (like 45 with P25), 80, and 120mm...

Thank again!!!
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