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Author Topic: Cheap Scarlet  (Read 4536 times)
Morgan_Moore
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« on: October 15, 2012, 04:38:30 PM »
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Todays batch of cheap Scarlets nearly tipped me.

Quote started at 18k then down to 10k for a minimal build - the blag - Redmote on the rear of the cam, no monitor or side handle

(stick with DP6 monitor - HDMI)

I mean Ive heard the good the bad and the ugly on this cam, and a new sony rumour

Anything to add Mr Cooter, Mr Barrat ??

Also I see shooting a lot of 3k

All I want is a really really solid coloured 1080 deliverable...

S

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Sam Morgan Moore Cornwall
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« Reply #1 on: October 15, 2012, 06:48:53 PM »
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http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?87124-Scarlet-Deal-of-a-Lifetime

http://www.red.com/store/products/scarlet-x-side-ssd-lens-mount-bt
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Morgan_Moore
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« Reply #2 on: October 16, 2012, 01:55:05 AM »
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Im aware.

More was after updates from some users here on how the y 'feel' with the camera

Getting info from motion shooters is mostly garbled - you know them not liking that their white balance can be changed post against their artistic intent or something Smiley

S
« Last Edit: October 16, 2012, 01:59:42 AM by Morgan_Moore » Logged

Sam Morgan Moore Cornwall
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« Reply #3 on: October 16, 2012, 10:25:06 AM »
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Morgan,

I too need a great 1080p deliverable, & as tempting this deal may be, most my clients aren't prepared for a Raw workflow. If the Scarlet already had the Dragon sensor this deal would be hard to turn down, but as is I'm going to pass.

However Canon's current deals on the C300 are looking very tempting. I love filming with that camera in it's standard setup. It's so easy to support, & move.

But if I had a pre-order on the BMCC I'd be canceling it, & jumping on the Scarlet.

-B
« Last Edit: October 16, 2012, 12:00:27 PM by Bern Caughey » Logged
Morgan_Moore
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« Reply #4 on: October 16, 2012, 04:10:30 PM »
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Im just not floated by the C300 - maybe it has some secret 8bit voodoo but I dont think so

Also I think it looks (and handles) like a christmas tree.

The data rates on scarlet at 3k are tiny.. ish if you have done some calcs on the BMC.. http://www.digitalrebellion.com/webapps/video_calc.html

But the BMC still you can buy a full voigt lens set and a holiday with Scarlet money

I still am far from convinced on the BMC/SCA ergonomics

Lets hope Sony have the Fxx right!

S

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Sam Morgan Moore Cornwall
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« Reply #5 on: October 17, 2012, 03:24:41 AM »
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The Scarlet is up to user preference. For a 4k file at 14 grand or especially 8 grand it's a deal.

I like my R1's better, but that's me, though everyone in our studio likes the Scarlet more, so once again . . . personal preference.

Compared to the Sony and the Canon C300 the Scarlet is military grade in build and of course it's slightly heavy.  Not oh my god I can't lift it heavy, but it's not a FS sony, which is good and bad.

Dislikes on the Scarlet is that damn glossy screen, the menu system kind of bugs me, the sound input jacks need a separate box so you can go from xlr to those mini things.  Red makes one for the back of the camera for a gajillion dollars or there are third party.

The file on the Scarlet is very moveable and if you've been shooting any camera with prorezz or avchd you'll be amazed at how much DR you can pull out of a Red file.

Youl'll need some v mount batteries and a belt clip (or you can cage mount).  The small battery in the handle only lasts a few minutes.

Personally, I'd buy a R1 because I think it's more robust, but the Scarlet can be hand held and with a Canon IS zoom you can get a smoother walk around image.  Not steady cam, but not jerky cam either.

I'm probably going to change our mount to Nikon because I love those little ZF Zeiss lenses and are easy to manual focus  on the fly even pulling focus yourself.

I wouldn't do PL for this camera, because why have a 5 pound camera with a 8 lb lens, unless you want to go really good and get a $22,000 optimo 2.2 zoom.

As far as the raw workflow, that one I don't see any negative (pun intended).  Cine-x is stable and processes semi fast on a fast computer, but with a RED rocket you can process out almost or as fast as just un wrapping a avchd file and a lot faster than converting any Canon file to pro rezz.

If you edit in Premier you can use the Raw file as a proxy, though it slows up the system, or if you grade out in Di-Vinci it uses the RED rocket and is also fast.

In regards to shooting only 3k, there is no reason unless you want faster frame rates, because it crops the sensor.

Bottom line, IMO is compared to the Canon's and Sony's the Scarlet is serious business and unless you just have to have 5k or a faster frame rate there is no reason to buy an Epic.

Bottom line 2 is with Red Gamma 3 the Scarlet is a full stop faster higher ISO's than the R1's and smoother.  I don't know what the Dragon sensor will offer, but the X sensor if fast enough and in the scarlet baby butt smooth.

Bottom line 3 is RED is a serious movie camera company and nothing is cheap compared to still cameras, but compared to the 98% of real movie making equipment, RED is dirt cheap.



IMO

BC


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Hywel
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« Reply #6 on: October 17, 2012, 12:18:47 PM »
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I bought a Scarlet at the start of the year and not regretted it for an instant.

Our crew (who are part-timers) LOVE shooting with it. They like seeing the dailies for quality AND they find the shooting experience much easier than with any of our previous cams (AF100, 5Dii, 7D, HVX200).

I'll agree with Cooter that there are some niggles.

The audio in through a jack sucks, and it sucks that to fix it you need to buy a module for megabucks with tons of crap you won't need. I've more or less permanently connected a radio receiver to mine and never connect or disconnect the cable, but still you occasionally get a crackle if you handle it ham-fistedly.

Forget powering it through the little batteries, it needs V-mount. In fact we don't use the side handle at all, took it off and control it entirely on screen.
Which makes it lighter and easier to hand-hold. I use relatively weedy ones to keep the weight down and to keep them legal for flying but still only get through three in a day, which is fine.

We shoot mostly in the studio or on location indoor so the glossy screen isn't such an issue. If we were outdoors the whole time I'd look into a proper shade for the screen or an EVF (you can control the camera with EVF and side handle, you don't need to use the touch screen).

The slow-mo is a little crippled. Annoyingly it won't do 50 fps in 3K, which potentially could be an issue with practical lighting for us over here in PAL-land. It will do 48 fps in 3K which I have to say has been fine for us so far. It gives us a bit of dreamy slowmo when we need it, and the 3K files still look super when output at 1080p (which is our final deliverable for the foreseeable future). 3K does crop a bit, so we've found ourselves using the 16-35 Canon zoom a lot more than usual.

I'd venture to say that if most of your shoots require extensive slowmo at slower than half speed or in very wide angles, the Scarlet will not be for you. And if run and gun is your thing, the lack of built in ND and microphones might be an issue. It is best suited to controlled, cinema-style shooting.

But if you want glorious images...

OH my goodness when you get the files into Pro-Cine and start to play- HEAVEN.

You can grade it like a proper RAW shot from a stills camera. How ever did we do without? It is such a joy to work with the files, then punch in to 1:1 pixel and see all the detail. Stunning, stunning quality. Nothing else I've ever shot with has come close.

We used to get occasional stunning shots on the other cameras, but it was a bit hit and miss because you'd always be walking a tightrope between clipping and crushing. There wasn't much margin for error (not having a truck load of lighting to compensate) and the monitoring was not really good enough to guarantee it. With the Scarlet, we nail shot after soft all day long, and if we've let it run a third of a stop too hot by mistake the latitude is more than enough to cope.

Best of all I know that we're not even getting everything out of it that the camera can deliver- the limitation is more often the quality of the lenses we've got than the sensor. A set of Zeiss glass is in my future (when a few credit card bills are paid off) so that we'll get sharper results, especially off centre at wider apertures than our mix of older Canon glass from when we used Canons for stills is currently able to deliver. (A few more L series lenses might not go amiss either).

  I'd go for it. It might not be the tool for 100% of the jobs you do, but I've never produced moving picture images I like half so much.

  Cheers, Hywel.

« Last Edit: October 17, 2012, 12:22:33 PM by Hywel » Logged
Morgan_Moore
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« Reply #7 on: October 17, 2012, 12:27:51 PM »
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Thanks for the input. No worries on the image then (unlike some web reports) I believe you guys!

I was hoping to use my SmallHD screen with its lovely deep sunshade and save $1500
I cant work out if it is usable without touch screen. some say yes others say no.
Any comments?

As for 3k I was going to save a bit of media and it makes a 17-55 work for me, 17-55 at s35 is too short at the long end. Id flip to 4k for wides (is this instant or a menu bury?)

--

Overall Im gonna see what sony come up with on 30/10
If I miss the deal so be it.
Sony will either give an intelligent 2.5k raw  with prores option with ND/XLR and onboard controls (if they are thinking) or make some H264 4k horror show (if they are not thiking)

S

« Last Edit: October 17, 2012, 12:39:14 PM by Morgan_Moore » Logged

Sam Morgan Moore Cornwall
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« Reply #8 on: October 17, 2012, 12:51:24 PM »
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Hywell I noted your 'you can control it' comment (no screen)

Really is that can or can

I mean my nikon D3 i can control with my eyes closed or buried in the VF

My FS100 i can control it while taking my eyes of the monitor and contorting my neck!

S



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Sam Morgan Moore Cornwall
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« Reply #9 on: October 17, 2012, 02:22:59 PM »
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Im just not floated by the C300 - maybe it has some secret 8bit voodoo but I dont think so

Also I think it looks (and handles) like a christmas tree.

Morgan,

We have very different ideas on camera builds. You like a full shoulder rig, I hate them! They're pondorous, & slow to reconfigure.

Meanwhile the C300 is small, & lightweight. Add an IS lens, & they're very stable, without any need to get rigged out. They're easy to hold all day, which leads to moving them more. And their lightweight means they go on smaller sticks, jibs, sliders, etc.

And their easy to travel with. No need for cases full of accessories that the baggage handlers may mistakenly ship off to Timbuktu. And their quicker to build, & breakdown.

Last week we used a pair along side an Alexa, & the results were great. The C300 is certainly no Alexa, but then nothing is. While the Alexa sat on the dolly, the C300s were all over the place. Top of ladders, laying on the floor, being swung around handheld. The Alexa needed three ACs, & a DIT, while the C300's only required a quick download at the end of the gig.

I have my gripes about the C300, especially the slomo, but so far it's the most intuitive, & quick, motion camera I've used.

Raw is great, & I'd happily use it on every shoot, but it costs more than many productions allow, even ones with the budget for Alexas, & all it's necessary bits.

Best,
B
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Morgan_Moore
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« Reply #10 on: October 17, 2012, 04:03:45 PM »
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Morgan,

We have very different ideas on camera builds. You like a full shoulder rig, I hate them! They're pondorous, & slow to reconfigure.

Raw is great, & I'd happily use it on every shoot, but it costs more than many productions allow, even ones with the budget for Alexas, & all it's necessary bits.


I would ask a simple question can you  (or do you need to?), handhold a 10 minutes interview with an eye-line straight down the lens or at the height of the reporter.

The answer to that question IMO totally changes the game with shoulder mount.

You get snot vision with a bare C300 Wink unless you stand on an apple box which weirds out the subject.

Now I did a job with a smaller compact rig - I guessed we would do the speaking on sticks but the director (correctly) taught me that a sticks interview would not cut well with handheld Broll

Half way into the interviews I was literally shaking with pain in the back and the arms.

For 5second (fashion?) takes Im small rig all the way.

---

As for the raw - Im onboard with cooter - seems like Redraw is managable in size (unless doing a long interview shoot like above)

Shooting hotel stills - I kind of need a raw solution to look at the sea views and interiors at the same time - how I would pull it off in post Im not clear yet - but it could be charged by the shot if post heavy.

BMC raw I have concerns, Arri Raw is not relevant to my price zone.

I hope someone brings 2.5k raw/50+ prores in a practical package..

S

BTW I dont reconfigure my shoulder rig.. it drops straight on sticks and has a rear handle so I can shoot from the waist, it also sits on the floor/table, it will even take a 400 2.8 with the cam hangining off the back - the camera also pops off to move to my steadicam etc - its not some Zacuto schmuck Smiley









« Last Edit: October 17, 2012, 04:12:53 PM by Morgan_Moore » Logged

Sam Morgan Moore Cornwall
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« Reply #11 on: October 17, 2012, 04:52:37 PM »
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Morgan,

I don't work with reporters, but if I'm concerned about holding an eye-level shot that long with a C300, or most any camera, I prefer to use a monopod, sticks, or an EasyRig. And though I haven't tested this yet, due to it's lightweight, & ergonomics, I might even be able just tuck in my elbows, & do it without any support.

With my AF100 I have an external EVF, & rotating body-mounted (wood) handle, so can get it up on the shoulder without any rig.

What I dislike about most shoulder rigs is their designed for shoulder work. I rarely stick with that angle for too long, & they make other angles cumbersome. I haven't used one yet that's great at waist-level, or especially ground level. And they protrude behind the operator's head which is, again, cumbersome. Plus they're heavy.

Bulk, & weight, defeats much of what's great about these new cameras, & I find they restrict how I use them.

What I don't understand is how you can work with perhaps the worst ergonomic camera, & state the C300 "looks (and handles) like a christmas tree". Both can get as dressed up as you like, but stripped down the C300 is miles ahead of any large sensor Sony.

Best,
B

PS Congradulations on the success of your lens gears! They've been well received throughout the industry, & though I haven't mounted my set yet I'm sure I will be some day.





« Last Edit: October 17, 2012, 05:23:28 PM by Bern Caughey » Logged
Hywel
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« Reply #12 on: October 17, 2012, 05:27:47 PM »
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That's "can be controlled" as in "in principle all the controls can be accessed, and configured, to the side handle's many buttons". However, I took the side handle off to save weight as we found the touch screen interface was all we needed and we did keep hitting the odd button on the side handle by mistake when it was on.

So... maybe workable in the abstract but wouldn't like to oversell that possibility as we don't use it that way at all.

I have very few concerns over the image- as I said, most of them are lens related rather than sensor related, and I've never said that about any video camera before.

I guess the Scarlet doesn't do high ISO as well as the C300 is claimed to, but a C300 won't do 16 bit RAW with a fat dynamic range, either.

I've noticed some noise in high ISO shots, especially in tungsten or candle-light, but the noise is nice and film-grain-like. It doesn't get too screwed over by the compression scheme and turn everything into mush the way AVCHD goes when it falls apart. One can use Neat video to clean that up but I've never bothered because I like the way it comes out as it is.

I've got frame grabs taken from the Scarlet which have similar look and feel (and general impression of quality) to shots taken in RAW with my 7D. Is the image quality up to the RAW stills of the 'blad or 5Dii? No. But it is comparable to a previous-generation stills camera, coming at 25 frames per second, which is pretty cool. I can't point you to quantitative tests to back up what I say, but our artistic impressions of the image quality are high.

For my shoots, REDraw is totally do-able. I am my own client, though, so I do all my prep, editing, grading and finishing myself to produce a 1080p MP4 which I actually sell. I've got used to the "leave it overnight" based workflow for the final finish. I don't have a RED rocket, so could speed it up to near real time if I spent the cash. Proxies to edit with can be generated out of RED Cine in an hour for a typical day's footage from one of our shoots, which generally doesn't quite fill our 5 x 64 GB cards at REDcode 6:1.

If you don't already have it you will need to plan on a robust data storage strategy as you'll be generating data by the Terabyte over the course of the year. But disk space is cheap.

4K to 3K flip is very fast with the touchscreen - it is a drop-down menu at the top of the standard screen. Two finger presses, one to reveal the list and one to select the option. You can't change it while you are rolling though I don't think.

  Cheers, Hywel.



« Last Edit: October 17, 2012, 05:40:29 PM by Hywel » Logged
Bern Caughey
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« Reply #13 on: October 17, 2012, 05:37:21 PM »
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High ISO may not be important for many users, but I've had several complex studio sets lately that we're only illuminated to 2.8 at ISO 1600.

Seems crazy, but seems to be the new normal for parts of Hollywood.
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Morgan_Moore
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« Reply #14 on: October 17, 2012, 05:52:25 PM »
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Morgan,

I don't work with reporters, but if I'm concerned about holding an eye-level shot that long with a C300, or most any camera, I prefer to use a monopod, sticks, or an EasyRig. And though I haven't tested this yet, due to it's lightweight, & ergonomics, I might even be able just tuck in my elbows, & do it without any support.

With my AF100 I have an external EVF, & rotating body-mounted (wood) handle, so can get it up on the shoulder without any rig.

What I dislike about most shoulder rigs is their designed for shoulder work. I rarely stick with that angle for too long, & they make other angles cumbersome. I haven't used one yet that's great at waist-level, or especially ground level. And they protrude behind the operator's head which is, again, cumbersome. Plus they're heavy.

Bulk, & weight, defeats much of what's great about these new cameras, & I find they restrict how I use them.

What I don't understand is how you can work with perhaps the worst ergonomic camera, & state the C300 "looks (and handles) like a christmas tree". Both can get as dressed up as you like, but stripped down the C300 is miles ahead of any large sensor Sony.
Best,
B
PS Congradulations on the success of your lens gears! They've been well received throughout the industry, & though I haven't mounted my set yet I'm sure I will be some day.


I said I was directed (paid) to shoot on the shoulder - and actually I think it works and cuts
Im interested in monopods but they seem fairly horrid (Id like a $2k monopod with foot release height/ball head proper pro kit) - maybe im biased by my $100 manfrotto junk pod which is rusted up from surf photography - easy rig is the string thing? Again its a look - each is a look

Working Broll on sticks my other build is pretty tiny.. http://halfinchrails.com/blog-of-the-halfinchrails-world/strip-it-back-for-pickup-shots

The batteries dont go long enough for client shooting - just pickups
As for weight - Ive played Ive played - taking the vlock off and swapping for Z1 batts makes it worse.
Again - without entering into advertorial (too much) my personal rig is just tighter, closer, lighter more rigid and better than anything you have 'worn' - I promise that - as tight as my gears!

Yes it has 'bulk' physical length - that creates inertia and stability killing micro jitter

You probably know Im fascinated with rigs and could bore the pants of you!

Everyone finds what is right for them - but I promise how I sort my cameras to shoot is nothing like what a off the shelf joker rig feels like.

As for the C300 being a christmas tree - Well I dont like the monitor- I like the finer focus control of my DP6 - yes I shoot shallow and want to hold focus - so I would end up with my DP6, and the other monitor just to have the XLR onboard - christmas tree!

The first few shots are terrible (and of course the actors, story sound ect.) , but once I found my rythym I thing some of the operating is OK, including low shots and the close ups were done with no sticks, the cam did not come off the rig all day some shots it was laid on my dolly ect.
https://vimeo.com/50849769 pwd source
I find that eyeline very important..


S



 







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Sam Morgan Moore Cornwall
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Morgan_Moore
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« Reply #15 on: October 17, 2012, 05:56:01 PM »
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That's "can be controlled"

Thank you for taking the time to answer in such detail.

Im with you on the image front.

Ive seen and theorised that one might consider a blue (red cut) filter under tungsten but you would need more light of course

I would not want to change res while rolling!

Could you bring up the res, frame rate, sound lelvels easily on the redmote or side handle

as easy as Fstop on a 5d2?

Im getting the feelign not

S
« Last Edit: October 17, 2012, 05:57:54 PM by Morgan_Moore » Logged

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« Reply #16 on: October 18, 2012, 05:59:37 PM »
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Morgan,

Of course its personal, but I feel the the menues are very intuitive. You can map every button to your personal taste and save this as a preset which you can simply take over to a second camera when needed. I like to control the cam with the buttons and use the touchscreen for extended functions eg scrolling through the take in playback mode. All (good and bad) was already told in the previous posts, this cam is a serious workhorse in a cinematic surrounding, it will shine with proper lighting. Get your hands on one and youll find out if it will fit your needs.

Cheers, Ulf
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Morgan_Moore
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« Reply #17 on: October 18, 2012, 07:16:03 PM »
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Get your hands on one and youll find out if it will fit your needs.

My Plan.

Ulf. I think you have some of the best coloured motion I have ever seen!

Is this Scarlet? I guess its the combo of a good camera and a stills/raw background. Crisp. (and light)

Also how do you host - the colours last right through to the web?

Thanks for posting.

S

 
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« Reply #18 on: October 19, 2012, 04:21:28 PM »
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Hi Morgan,

thank you for your kind words. All stuff that is online at the moment is pre-Scarlet, just a 5DMkII, tried a GH2 as well, liked the colors better but too much unpleasing grain. Actually I have not been satisfied with the output of those DSLRs, especially the highlight roll off, that was the reason to jump on RED. It was a game changer for me, I really enjoy working raw, resolution, colors and grain of the RED system. I am lighting and sometimes color correct with filters for the sensor (ISO500 @ 5000K). At the moment Im happy to work on my first feature, my Scarlet is operated by somebody else and Im focussing on the lighting. It is a great experience and it is looking very promising. Now with the hosting, I just uploaded my movs, no secrets :-)

Cheers, Ulf
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« Reply #19 on: October 20, 2012, 12:20:58 AM »
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Now with the hosting, I just uploaded my movs, no secrets :-)

There is a little youtube logo next to them with something written in german

it must say 'or watch this on youtube'

I thought it might say 'youtube premium' or something!

I think having your own file really really helps - by not subjecting to a youtube/vimeo recompression - I will try

Thanks you.

S
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