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Author Topic: Interesting marketing video posted by phase one..... but something is wrong..  (Read 4510 times)
FredBGG
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« on: October 17, 2012, 06:32:36 AM »
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I have posted about this video before, but forgot something.

Here is what I wrote before:

Quote

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=91KqEfi23FU&feature=youtu.be

The video shows a Phase One guy shooting moving action with strobe and WIDE OPEN
with fast focus. Yet the very manual of that cameras states that you need to shoot at f8 in order to achieve focus
with fast focus.

From page 99 of the pdf manual.

C-19 AF Priority [AF_2]
Accuracy of auto-focusing priority (default setting) or speed priority can be
decided.
0: Speed
(Aperture to f/ 8 is recommended when using this function.)


The claims of faster focusing are somewhat over rated.
buried deep in the manual it states that the faster focusing setting is only accurate enough at f8 or more.
No mention of that in there video plugging their new focusing.

But there is something else wrong with this video......

Lets play a game here and see who can spot it first Wink Cool Cool Cool
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KLaban
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« Reply #1 on: October 17, 2012, 07:05:35 AM »
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Lets play a game here and see who can spot it first

Goody gumdrops, I like games.

What's the prize? Perhaps a camera club membership?
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BJL
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« Reply #2 on: October 17, 2012, 08:09:04 AM »
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Fred,
    How do you get from that ungrammatical "aperture to f/8 is _recommended_" to it being _necessary_ to stop down to f/8? For all I can tell, that could even be a warning against using higher aperture ratios.

Speaking as a fellow enthusiast for using the smallest format that gets the job done and skeptic about many of the arguments offered by some "medium format" enthusiasts for the unacceptability of smaller digital formats as alternatives, I think you spend way too much time researching and debating products that you clearly have no interest in owning or using. Or am I weird in only reading a manual (all the way to page 99) if I at least seriously contemplate using the product?

If you want to be an evangelist, how about instead telling us the good news about camera gear that you recommend and are familiar with?
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Doug Peterson
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« Reply #3 on: October 17, 2012, 08:49:35 AM »
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If you want to be an evangelist, how about instead telling us the good news about camera gear that you recommend and are familiar with?

That would be a productive and positive contribution to the board. You now shoot 6x8 film and a D800 (maybe others?). The board would benefit from hearing about how you're getting the best out of both options, along with perhaps your experience with the non-gear side (production issues, working with celebrities, etc).

I don't really see any benefit to anyone (including you) to the anti-MFD rampage you've been on for a few months now. We get it; you think it's all a bunch of malarky.

As to the video --- as pointed out above, the user guide *recommends* stopping down when using the "fast" focus mode. It's not *required*, though it definitely increases your hit rate.

The reality is this is advertising. If you watch a commercial for a sports car you'd be led to believe that it's perfectly acceptable to pull a U-turn in a desert at 60mph. Probably somewhere in the owners manual it will *recommend* you "stop down" the speed of the car when pulling a U-Turn :-).

I think it's fair to say that the good medium format dealers not only allow, but encourage, customers to evaluate the equipment they are considering purchasing. We certainly do.

As to whether you can shoot in fast mode wide open. Here is my personal experience: If a wedding reception is outside or in a brightly lit room I will use medium format for reportage-style portraits of the attendees. I do this wide open in fast focus rear-button mode* (spontaneity and not being noticed or annoying is important to my desired outcome); focus is off on maybe half the shots. If it's in a darker environment I use a 5D3 with a fast prime lens in continuous autofocus rear-button mode, wide open; same thing - I miss focus on maybe half the shots**. I could easily stop down and increase my hit rate, and I could easily spend more time with the camera to my face to verify and tune focus as needed before pulling the trigger, but these changes would be counter productive to the style I aim to produce, and in this case it's far more important to me that I produce a dozen or so interesting images than to hit 100% of the shots I attempt.

*Depending on the direction of light on the subject I may also manually focus
**Of course while I miss about the same rate with both systems the 5D3 is being used in a tougher AF environment (darker lighting coming from less AF-conducive angles). I'd be the first to tell you that in equally tough conditions 35mm beats MF focusing every time.

Two recent examples:

« Last Edit: October 17, 2012, 08:52:12 AM by Doug Peterson » Logged

DOUG PETERSON (dep@digitaltransitions.com), Digital Transitions
Dealer for Phase One, Mamiya Leaf, Arca-Swiss, Cambo, Profoto
Office: 877.367.8537
Cell: 740.707.2183
Phase One IQ250 FAQ
FredBGG
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« Reply #4 on: October 17, 2012, 11:31:27 AM »
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Fred,
    How do you get from that ungrammatical "aperture to f/8 is _recommended_" to it being _necessary_ to stop down to f/8? For all I can tell, that could even be a warning against using higher aperture ratios.

Speaking as a fellow enthusiast for using the smallest format that gets the job done and skeptic about many of the arguments offered by some "medium format" enthusiasts for the unacceptability of smaller digital formats as alternatives, I think you spend way too much time researching and debating products that you clearly have no interest in owning or using. Or am I weird in only reading a manual (all the way to page 99) if I at least seriously contemplate using the product?

If you want to be an evangelist, how about instead telling us the good news about camera gear that you recommend and are familiar with?

BJL

I read the whole manual or at least most of it because I owned the camera and wanted to use it in situations like the demonstration in this video.
I spent a lot of frustrating time with the camera and NO I DON'T THINK IT IS WEIRD for a camera owner to go through the whole manual, particularly if it does not
do what the manufacturers demo videos are claiming.

I guessing that the many attacks I received here on the forum may have lead you to believe that I did not own the camera. I did sell it though.

« Last Edit: October 17, 2012, 11:53:23 AM by FredBGG » Logged
FredBGG
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« Reply #5 on: October 17, 2012, 11:36:29 AM »
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That would be a productive and positive contribution to the board. You now shoot 6x8 film and a D800 (maybe others?). The board would benefit from hearing about how you're getting the best out of both options, along with perhaps your experience with the non-gear side (production issues, working with celebrities, etc).

I don't really see any benefit to anyone (including you) to the anti-MFD rampage you've been on for a few months now. We get it; you think it's all a bunch of malarky.

As to the video --- as pointed out above, the user guide *recommends* stopping down when using the "fast" focus mode. It's not *required*, though it definitely increases your hit rate.

The reality is this is advertising. If you watch a commercial for a sports car you'd be led to believe that it's perfectly acceptable to pull a U-turn in a desert at 60mph. Probably somewhere in the owners manual it will *recommend* you "stop down" the speed of the car when pulling a U-Turn :-).

I think it's fair to say that the good medium format dealers not only allow, but encourage, customers to evaluate the equipment they are considering purchasing. We certainly do.

As to whether you can shoot in fast mode wide open. Here is my personal experience: If a wedding reception is outside or in a brightly lit room I will use medium format for reportage-style portraits of the attendees. I do this wide open in fast focus rear-button mode* (spontaneity and not being noticed or annoying is important to my desired outcome); focus is off on maybe half the shots. If it's in a darker environment I use a 5D3 with a fast prime lens in continuous autofocus rear-button mode, wide open; same thing - I miss focus on maybe half the shots**. I could easily stop down and increase my hit rate, and I could easily spend more time with the camera to my face to verify and tune focus as needed before pulling the trigger, but these changes would be counter productive to the style I aim to produce, and in this case it's far more important to me that I produce a dozen or so interesting images than to hit 100% of the shots I attempt.

*Depending on the direction of light on the subject I may also manually focus
**Of course while I miss about the same rate with both systems the 5D3 is being used in a tougher AF environment (darker lighting coming from less AF-conducive angles). I'd be the first to tell you that in equally tough conditions 35mm beats MF focusing every time.

Two recent examples:



Interesting that you chose to attach me rather than take the challenge and see if you can spot what it wrong in the video....

Let me ask you twoe questions and please as a dealer please answer.
Do you find the video to be miss leading or not?
Do you find the video to be honest?
« Last Edit: October 17, 2012, 11:38:06 AM by FredBGG » Logged
FredBGG
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« Reply #6 on: October 17, 2012, 12:03:42 PM »
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Anyway... back to the game....

Come on guys and gals... put on your detectives hat and have some fun with this little puzzler...
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EricWHiss
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« Reply #7 on: October 17, 2012, 12:15:36 PM »
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If you want to be an evangelist, how about instead telling us the good news about camera gear that you recommend and are familiar with?

+1

I'd much rather hear something about the fuji 680, film, or how you lit and image or even better see an image that you liked.  I'm not a fan of the DF body at all, but I can't even remotely connect your posts as being a benefit to young photographers or people considering a purchase.   Your post here comes across as petty or even vengeful.
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sgilbert
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« Reply #8 on: October 17, 2012, 12:24:32 PM »
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"[H]ave some fun"?

Define "fun."
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FredBGG
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« Reply #9 on: October 17, 2012, 12:34:21 PM »
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Fun...

Treat this as a puzzler and see if you can spot the gotcha...

We are after all observant photographers right...

 Grin

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hsteeves
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« Reply #10 on: October 17, 2012, 12:44:50 PM »
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is that the fast AF function works TO f8 ... which to me means it works best at any aperture from F8 and wider so if the guy is running around shooting wide open, he is following the manual.
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Ed Foster, Jr.
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« Reply #11 on: October 17, 2012, 01:08:45 PM »
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Anyway... back to the game....

Come on guys and gals... put on your detectives hat and have some fun with this little puzzler...

With all due respect, Fred, I'm not a world famous A list photographer, so I don't have time. Rather than being concerned with negative tirades, I'm busy using my Nikons and Hasselblads (or whatever other equipment works for me) making photographs and enjoying the work that some of the professionals are posting and discussing here: http://www.luminous-landscape.com/forum/index.php?topic=28709.3860 .

Ed

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Doug Peterson
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« Reply #12 on: October 17, 2012, 01:13:32 PM »
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is that the fast AF function works TO f8 ... which to me means it works best at any aperture from F8 and wider so if the guy is running around shooting wide open, he is following the manual.

The user manual intends to recommend to the user to stop the lens down when using Fast (vs. Precise) AF modes.

-----

I'm guessing he's referring to the fact Walter (the photographer) leans back as the subject comes closer to him. Most viewers might conclude he is attempting to keep the increasingly large subject in the frame since he is using a prime lens. But if you put on your glasses tinted with the assumption that MF companies are all lying bastards out to get you then you might conclude that he is moving back to improve AF results even though he moves back 1-2 feet and the subject is moving much more than that.

It's advertising. Do your own tests to see what works for you. This applies in any area of life. Otherwise you might assume that during that women becomes a happy skydivers during that time of the month.
« Last Edit: October 17, 2012, 01:21:04 PM by Doug Peterson » Logged

DOUG PETERSON (dep@digitaltransitions.com), Digital Transitions
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yaya
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« Reply #13 on: October 17, 2012, 01:39:18 PM »
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I'm guessing he's referring to the fact Walter (the photographer) leans back as the subject comes closer to him. Most viewers might conclude he is attempting to keep the increasingly large subject in the frame since he is using a prime lens.

Naah I'm sure it's got something to do with the colour of the petrol tank that guy is carrying not conforming to some COLREG regulations or some such...I'm surprised with you Douglas....
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TMARK
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« Reply #14 on: October 17, 2012, 02:05:31 PM »
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Naah I'm sure it's got something to do with the colour of the petrol tank that guy is carrying not conforming to some COLREG regulations or some such...I'm surprised with you Douglas....

COLREGS?  I love it.
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Nick-T
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« Reply #15 on: October 17, 2012, 02:09:00 PM »
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Goody gumdrops, I like games.

What's the prize? Perhaps a camera club membership?

A Tamrac bag?
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Bryan Conner
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« Reply #16 on: October 17, 2012, 02:21:47 PM »
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I have never shot with this camera.  I have never even seen someone shoot one in person, so I have never heard the shutter and witnessed it triggering a flash, but the light does not seem to flash with the shutter.  Maybe the sound was dubbed in later.
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FredBGG
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« Reply #17 on: October 17, 2012, 03:01:16 PM »
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is that the fast AF function works TO f8 ... which to me means it works best at any aperture from F8 and wider so if the guy is running around shooting wide open, he is following the manual.

No that's not the problem because when the camera focuses it does so wide open even if you are stopped down to f8 or even f16. The iris automatically stops down when the mirror goes up.
There is a stop down depth of field preview button on the camera though if someone wants to stop down momentarily.
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FredBGG
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« Reply #18 on: October 17, 2012, 03:42:15 PM »
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With all due respect, Fred, I'm not a world famous A list photographer, so I don't have time. Rather than being concerned with negative tirades, I'm busy using my Nikons and Hasselblads (or whatever other equipment works for me) making photographs and enjoying the work that some of the professionals are posting and discussing here: http://www.luminous-landscape.com/forum/index.php?topic=28709.3860 .

Ed



Love your photos and articles on Cuba.
Beautiful and touching. Excellent work.
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FredBGG
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« Reply #19 on: October 17, 2012, 03:48:14 PM »
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The user manual intends to recommend to the user to stop the lens down when using Fast (vs. Precise) AF modes.

-----

I'm guessing he's referring to the fact Walter (the photographer) leans back as the subject comes closer to him. Most viewers might conclude he is attempting to keep the increasingly large subject in the frame since he is using a prime lens. But if you put on your glasses tinted with the assumption that MF companies are all lying bastards out to get you then you might conclude that he is moving back to improve AF results even though he moves back 1-2 feet and the subject is moving much more than that.

It's advertising. Do your own tests to see what works for you. This applies in any area of life. Otherwise you might assume that during that women becomes a happy skydivers during that time of the month.

Nope that's not it.

Let me ask you the two questions again.
Just a simple yes or no.

Do you find the video to be miss leading or not?
Do you find the video to be honest?
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