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Author Topic: Paper recommendations --VINTAGE B&W  (Read 1888 times)
Dave Gurtcheff
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« on: October 18, 2012, 09:26:12 PM »
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I just came into a family heritage altering experience. My father was an internationally know amateur Photographer in the 1930s. His negatives were lost for 72 years (he died in May 1940 at age 29 ----I was three.) his negatives were found 100 miles from here in a fire proof steel box, about 225 rolls of film, 16 negatives per roll ( 645 format...shot with a zeiss Super Ikonta A, with Zeiss Tessar lens, compur shutter). I am going to make 11" x 14" prints of selected negatives, hopefully, for a museum show featuring his work. I plan to make prints, use acid free 16"x20" mats, mounted on acid free fome core with archival mounting strips. The matted prints will not be framed. I want to use a paper to best show off the B&W images, with a heavy base, so as to not wrinkle. Two of my favorite B&W papers are Epson Exhibition Fiber, and Ilford Gold Fibre Silk. Neither paper is available in 11"x14". I hate to buy 13"x19" paper and cut it down (I am 75 yrs old and on fixed income budget). The few actual  prints actually printed by my father look like Kodak Medalist "G" surface (based on my darkroom days).  I use the paper mfg's canned profiles, i do not have the resources to make custom profiles. I use epson 3800, and 7890 printers. Any suggestions much appreciated.......I know you get what you pay for, but high quality at a budget price (IMPOSSIBLE?), would be a god-send
Thanks in advance
Dave in NJ

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Mark D Segal
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« Reply #1 on: October 18, 2012, 09:39:04 PM »
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Hi Dave,

If you buy Gold Fibre Silk in 17*22 inch sheet size, you can cut that in half to 11*17. It's three inches of waste for an 11*14, but still more economical than trimming 13*19 to 11*14. I made a custom profile for my 3800 and Gold Fibre Silk paper using a high quality profiling kit and it served me very well (I use a 4900 now, but still have that profile on my computer). If you send me an email address, I'll email this profile to you. Try it out and see whether it works well for you. Much depends on any differences between printer units. For the Exhibition Fibre paper, the profile made by Pixelgenius LLC and available on their website http://pixelgenius.com/epson/. For doing B&W work using the Epson 3800 I would very much recommend visiting Eric Chan's 3800 blog http://people.csail.mit.edu/ericchan/dp/Epson3800/abwprofiles.html and using the methods and materials he has available there.
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Mark D Segal (formerly MarkDS)
Author: "Scanning Workflows with SilverFast 8....." http://www.luminous-landscape.com/reviews/film/scanning_workflows_with_silverfast_8.shtml
hugowolf
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« Reply #2 on: October 18, 2012, 10:10:54 PM »
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If you are printing on 11 x 14 inch sheets, then the images will be smaller than this – you will need borders for the matting, and 4.5 x 6 would need cropping if it were to be printed at 11 x 14 inches.

Cutting down 13 x 19 would waste a lot of paper, but cutting down 17 x 22 wouldn’t waste much at all. In fact, 25 sheets of 17 x 22 (which would yield 50 sheets of 11 x 17 or 11 x 14) and may cost no more than 50 sheets of 11 x 14 inches. There are also many papers available in 11 x 17 inches, which would be better trimmed down, but you could always leave 3 inches under the mat, at a pinch.

Personally, I think Museo Silver Rag is better than Epson Exhibition Fibre – it is 100% cotton and has no OBA content; and Canson Baryta Photographique is a slight edge over Ilford Gold Fibre Silk. (OBAs were not introduced into photo papers until the 1950s.)

Brian A
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David Sutton
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« Reply #3 on: October 19, 2012, 02:49:33 AM »
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Hello Dave.
All good comments so far.
When I was printing on a 3800 I would buy Gold Fibre Silk in rolls and cut it to size on the kitchen table and store it flat for a few days. It was undoubtedly a bit of a pain but really saved a lot of money. You would have to do the math based on your local prices.
I'm not familiar with the Kodak paper but I still think GFS is hard to beat for its surface and price.
Cheers,
David
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Alan Goldhammer
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« Reply #4 on: October 19, 2012, 07:04:38 AM »
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You don't say which of the two printers that you plan on using for this work.  If it is the 7890, you should just go to 17 inch roll paper and you will have 1.5 inch borders on each side which is probably OK since you are going to have an overmat when you mount.  If it is the 3800, you would have to cut paper to avoid a lot of wastage.  Since these are all negatives from the pre-color era, and you have two Epson printers, just use the ABW feature and you really don't have to worry about profiles.  The only thing to do is find the right 'darkness' setting in the Epson driver for the paper you plan to use.  Of all the mentioned papers, I'm partial to Museo Silver Rag and it's probably the best match to the papers your father might have printed on.
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Mark D Segal
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« Reply #5 on: October 19, 2012, 07:57:23 AM »
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Canson Baryta Photographique is a slight edge over Ilford Gold Fibre Silk.

Brian A


Brian, the two papers are as close to identical as it gets, seen from usage, from examination of outcomes and from analysis of the profiles I've generated for both. It boils down to a matter of price and availability which to use. Interestingly, the Canson is supplied in 11*17 sheets, so depending on how much the same amount of paper would cost from Canson versus Ilford, it may or may not pay to go to the trouble of cutting 17*22 sheets.
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Mark D Segal (formerly MarkDS)
Author: "Scanning Workflows with SilverFast 8....." http://www.luminous-landscape.com/reviews/film/scanning_workflows_with_silverfast_8.shtml
Dave Gurtcheff
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« Reply #6 on: October 19, 2012, 08:55:01 AM »
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Hi all: great suggestions. I did not think of cutting 17"x22" down to 11"x17". The mats I will be using have an 10.5"x13.5" opening to cover the small margins. Yes, I will need to very slightly crop the  long dimension.

Thanks all
Dave
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hugowolf
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« Reply #7 on: October 19, 2012, 10:10:08 AM »
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Brian, the two papers are as close to identical as it gets, seen from usage, from examination of outcomes and from analysis of the profiles I've generated for both. It boils down to a matter of price and availability which to use. Interestingly, the Canson is supplied in 11*17 sheets, so depending on how much the same amount of paper would cost from Canson versus Ilford, it may or may not pay to go to the trouble of cutting 17*22 sheets.
Yes, I agree. I think the baryta layer and ink receptive coatings are identical. The backing paper seems a little different and causes a very slight difference in surface texture. As I said, the Canson paper has 'a slight edge' for me. If going for canned profiles, I find that Canson's are more reliable than Ilford's. But, as you say, if it is for black and white through the ABW, then profiles won't matter.

Brian A
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leuallen
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« Reply #8 on: October 19, 2012, 01:34:35 PM »
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Unless I made a miscalculation - forget Illford Gold Fiber Silk. They have renamed it and raised the price!

From It Suplies: 25 sheets Canson Baryta Photographique 66.00

10 sheets Illford 49.00 or 25 at 122.50

Quite a difference!

Canson Baryta Photographique 11x17 25 for $51.00

I don't think I'd bother with rolls. Figuring 45 feet useable (bad cuts, crinkles, and general mishaps), the roll cut to 11x14 would come out to be $2.64 sheet. 11x17 cut down comes out to $2.04.

Larry
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Mark D Segal
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« Reply #9 on: October 19, 2012, 07:11:03 PM »
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Unless I made a miscalculation - forget Illford Gold Fiber Silk. They have renamed it and raised the price!

From It Suplies: 25 sheets Canson Baryta Photographique 66.00

10 sheets Illford 49.00 or 25 at 122.50

Quite a difference!

Canson Baryta Photographique 11x17 25 for $51.00

I don't think I'd bother with rolls. Figuring 45 feet useable (bad cuts, crinkles, and general mishaps), the roll cut to 11x14 would come out to be $2.64 sheet. 11x17 cut down comes out to $2.04.

Larry

First of all, no-one in their right minds buys these papers in 10 sheet boxes. That is financial suicide. I just bought three 50 sheet (13*19 inch) boxes of Ilford Gold Fibre Silk from my Toronto retailer for CAD 135 per 50 minus a small discount because of the volume of business I give them every year. Their 50-sheet pack of Gold Fibre Silk 17*22 inch is CAD 198, which if cut in half to become 100 11*17 sheets, would be about two dollars per sheet. That's no more expensive that the Canson. I agree with the idea of not using roll paper. At least in the Ilford line, per sq. ft. it is more expensive before considering wastage, which would not necessarily occur if cut into sheets and flattened before use - also not recommended because it's awkward and this is a paper whose surface is very prone to markings until ink is applied to it.
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Mark D Segal (formerly MarkDS)
Author: "Scanning Workflows with SilverFast 8....." http://www.luminous-landscape.com/reviews/film/scanning_workflows_with_silverfast_8.shtml
leuallen
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« Reply #10 on: October 19, 2012, 07:27:00 PM »
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Mark, of course your right. But the 10 sheet box was the only quantity I could find listed from that supplier, so I went with it. I seem to remember from a previous thread, probably incorrectly, that when the name and packaging change was made, only the 10 sheet quantity was available.

No problem for me as I am stocked up. I'll deal with that problem in the future when it comes up.

Larry
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Mark D Segal
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« Reply #11 on: October 19, 2012, 08:53:21 PM »
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Yes it was incorrect. 50 sheet boxes were never discontinued. Ilford confirmed this to me and here in Toronto we were never without that packaging, whether from CCBC, Vistek, Amplis, etc.. For future reference, if you are in the USA, B&H carries it all: http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/search?Ntt=Ilford+Galerie+Gold&N=0&InitialSearch=yes&sts=ma&Top+Nav-Search=. For Canadians it pays to buy it within Canada - pricing is quite similar.
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Mark D Segal (formerly MarkDS)
Author: "Scanning Workflows with SilverFast 8....." http://www.luminous-landscape.com/reviews/film/scanning_workflows_with_silverfast_8.shtml
mjcreedon
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« Reply #12 on: October 24, 2012, 08:18:53 PM »
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Dave,
<<The mats I will be using have an 10.5"x13.5" opening to cover the small margins. Yes, I will need to very slightly crop the  long dimension.>>
You may want to print on either 11x17 Harmon Baryta @ $64.50 for 30 sheets or 13x19 Harmon Baryta @ $85.00 for 30 sheets (B&H).  That way to can tip the prints using archival corners to float your prints under your mat.  Make sure to print slightly larger than the mat cut out.  Attached are 2 image examples of what I mean.
No need to cut any paper.  Since you are using 16x20 mats these size papers will fit under the mat with room for your archival corners.  I use Light Impressions Archival Clear Hold Corners (recent problems with Light Impressions aside) with Lineco Linen Hinging Tape to tape the corners and hinge the mat to the backing board.
If you need to spray the Baryta prints I use Moab Desert Varnish.  Works well for gloss, luster, mat and rag.
I have no connections with any of these venders.
As mentioned already printing B&W with many Epson printers allows for ABW settings (check the printer software for ABW) meaning you will use the Printer Manages Colors/Adobe RGB/Perceptual or RelCol ICC profile setup.  Remember to use Layout>ColorMatching>Epson Controls Colors then set your Print Settings appropriately.
Light Room allows for split toning. 
If printing B&W in Color using a 4800/9800 with PK ink set find the Bill Atkinson ICC  profiles for these printers.   9800 PLU 1440 UFA BA GM1.icc & 9800 PLU 1440 UFA BA XR1.icc excellent neutral full gamut color profiles.
Good luck,
Michael
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darinb
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« Reply #13 on: October 26, 2012, 10:37:46 AM »
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>>Yes it was incorrect. 50 sheet boxes were never discontinued.<<

They appear to be discontinued in the 17x22 size. I paid around $200 for my last box. Now all I see are 25 sheet boxes at $140. That looks like a 40% price increase to me! Are 50 sheet boxes really gone in this size?

--Darin
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Mark D Segal
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« Reply #14 on: October 26, 2012, 10:53:48 AM »
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http://www.ccbc-club.com/products.asp?cat=74&man=193, up to date.

50 sheets of 17*22 for $198. This is the retailer I use in downtown Toronto. It is available elsewhere too.
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Mark D Segal (formerly MarkDS)
Author: "Scanning Workflows with SilverFast 8....." http://www.luminous-landscape.com/reviews/film/scanning_workflows_with_silverfast_8.shtml
darinb
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« Reply #15 on: October 26, 2012, 11:38:10 AM »
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>>This is the retailer I use in downtown Toronto. It is available elsewhere too.<<

Might be old stock. Just received a reply from Atlex--the 50 sheet boxes are no more...

A 40% effective increase in price is a bit much. Guess I'm looking for a new standard paper...

--Darin
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Mark D Segal
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« Reply #16 on: October 26, 2012, 12:05:18 PM »
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You may be correct Darin - Ilford's website does not provide any information on sheets per package and the B&H site only shows 25 sheet packages for the 17*22. In this circumstance, you may wish to check Canson Baryta Photographique. http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/659566-REG/Canson_Infinity_00002274_2274_Baryta_Photographique_Inkjet.html. Pretty much the same paper, different manufacturer, much lower price.
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Mark D Segal (formerly MarkDS)
Author: "Scanning Workflows with SilverFast 8....." http://www.luminous-landscape.com/reviews/film/scanning_workflows_with_silverfast_8.shtml
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